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#61 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 02:55 PM
 
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Mamajama.

I'm shocked that so many people here are in support of pulling a gun on another human being.

When does gentle discipline really end? Isn't its goal really a more peaceful world?
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#62 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 03:09 PM
 
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I have to admit, the original post immediately made me think of the move Grand Canyon.

If you haven't seen it, there's a scene in which a yuppie's (Kevin Cline) expensive foreign sedan breaks down in the middle of the night in a rough area of LA. He's set upon by a carload of gang members and it's looking as though he's going to at least be mugged, maybe killed.

The tow truck driver shows up (Danny Glover). He tries to get the car loaded up and is stopped by the gangleader, who flashes his gun in a 'show of force'. Danny respectfully asks permission to continue loading the car, explaining that he will be in trouble with his boss if anything happens to the car or the driver now that he's on the scene.

The gangleader, a scrawny punk with a squeaky voice who otherwise would simply be ignored says, 'all right. I'm going to grant you that favor. But I got's to know one thing. Are you asking me out of respect, or are you asking me cuz I got's the gun?'

Danny says, 'truth is, if you got no gun, this conversation wouldn't be happening.'

The punk spits at his feet and says 'See? No gun, no respect. That's why I ALWAYS gots the gun.'

Something about the idea of a suburbanite middle aged father weilding a firearm at a teenager and later bragging about it reminded me of that wimpy punk.
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#63 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rigama
Moose.

That must have been hella scary for you. I'm glad you and your precious dd got home okay.
:

I haven't been commenting directly on the original post, because I wasn't there, so I figure I don't know enough about the actual situation, though because it's the first time he's done it in 18 years of carrying, I can believe he truly felt in danger.
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#64 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BusyMommy
Just a thought...what if he'd had one, too?

My brother got shot in a similar situation. Be careful.
: Not a dad, but...

This thread scares me. Were you in a residential area? If so, did you think of what might happen if bullets started flying? You say "dead end street", so what if he started shooting? Your 2yo would have been stuck, alone, in the back seat of a car down a dead end street...That makes me shudder...
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#65 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
ITA. And IMO it is caused by the desperate situation in the US, with the huge gap between rich and poor, and the lack of social programs and universal healthcare. IMO y'all have a brutal country going on there. No wonder your gun violence is brutal too.

This is EXACTLY our problem in the us!!!


Also what would you have done if he had reached in his pocket?

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#66 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 05:28 PM
 
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That is INSANE.

Guns are deadly. They are for extreme, and I mean imminent life-or-death situations ONLY. Someone tailgating and following you does not constitute an imminent threat to you or your daughter's life. Not even if they follow you home. You were safe in a vehicle. All you had to do was drive around until they gave up, call 911 on a phone, or pull over in a lighted, public area with people around. Simple. No creativity required. If you were that worried about their intentions, you would never have gone down a one-way with them following, and you know it.

Dude, you pulled a GUN because someone was FOLLOWING you. In a CAR. With your freaking daughter in the back seat!!! Think about that for a second. THAT'S road rage. That's !@#$%^& CRAZY!! Those that own/carry guns are far more likely to be shot by the guns they own/carry...you're aware of that, I assume? Your actions were the height of irresponsibility, and endangered both you AND your daughter. You're extremely lucky that kid didn't have a gun. You'd probably both be dead, and your poor daughter an orphan, if she didn't end up shot herself. And for what? Because you decided a showdown in the middle of a residential street was more sensible than using your brain?

No pat on the back for you here. People who carry deadly weapons and look for excuses to flash them (which is what I strongly suspect happened here) are the reason this country is dangerous to live in. And #1 on the list for gun deaths.

Someone with your lack of impulse control shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, let alone carry one concealed. You're a bullet wound waiting to happen!

(For anyone defending this man, please take a moment to think about something called proportional response. Following someone in a car=death threat does not add up.)
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#67 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 06:53 PM
 
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Fabulous post cjuniverse. Thank you.
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#68 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by swimswamswum

I'm shocked that so many people here are in support of pulling a gun on another human being.
:

I'm appaled at this thread.
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#69 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Howdy Folks,

Thanks to all for staying on topic with this situation.

I know there are strong feelings on all sides, and threads like this can easily deteriorate to the point of closure.

However, I think that as the prior posts demonstrate, those who participate in the Mothering Boards are a diverse lot, and likely everyone reading this thread has learned something.

pb
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#70 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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As a victim of a violent crime I say do whatever you need to do to stay alive. That person followed you with an intent to harm you, fight you, or even kill you. In that situation you needed to be on the defensive.

The crime against me was committed with a knife. Anyone can get a weapon to harm people if they want to hurt someone. I support legal uses of guns and gun ownership. I will not allow myself to be a victim ever again. I am glad that you and your daughter were not hurt. You did want your gut told you to do at the time and you are still alive to tell about it. I regret everyday not listening to my gut at the time of my attack.
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#71 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 11:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
I think it's a complex problem. First off, you have so many gun stores down there. So many gun manufacturers. A gun-accepting culture. Actually, in many cases not even gun accepting, but gun celebrating. For example, this line written by our buddy 'Moose', the gun-totin' road-rage dad:


That is a very scary concept to me but I know that it's common and inseperable almost at this point, from the mainstream American ideal. It seems that in the States, Guns=freedom. The right to bear arms is as important to many (most?) Americans as the right to vote.

In Canada, I believe we have a greater sense of the social contract. We elect leaders who protect us and we are willing to give up some freedoms in order to have that protection. It's a two-way street though. We (for the most part) are always keeping our politicians in check and are aware that they work for us, and in turn we can, in good conscience, relinquish a bit of control. More Americans balk at that concept than any other population on Earth (I'll hazard to guess). The population in U.S. seems much more into individual aquisition of property and the logical next step---protecting that property at all costs. Often that aquisiton of property (and its protection) is labeled "freedom". I prefer to label it "capitalism".
Great post.

I'm another one who is really saddened that people here are patting someone on the back for threatening violence. I've grown up with the European tradition that guns are evil, so admittedly I'm biased. But I've seen cultures where guns are okay/encouraged and been shocked by the violence which is ingrained in those societies. In countries where guns are not an option, there's a much more peaceful vibe.

What if the other gun had a gun too? What if he shot when you showed your weapon? I can't help but feel that you took your daughter from a potentially dangerous situation into an even more dangerous and violent situation. Out of the frying pan into the fire, so to speak.
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#72 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 11:23 PM
 
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Great post, cjuniverse.
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#73 of 314 Old 07-04-2006, 11:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TexasSuz
As a victim of a violent crime I say do whatever you need to do to stay alive. That person followed you with an intent to harm you, fight you, or even kill you. In that situation you needed to be on the defensive.
If I may repeat what cjuniverse said...please take a moment to think about something called proportional response.

Following someone in a car = death threat does not add up!
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#74 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 12:23 AM
 
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That person followed you with an intent to harm you, fight you, or even kill you.
That is rediculous. You don't know that.

This whole thread scares me. Glad I live in Canada.
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#75 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:59 AM
 
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They don't have guns in Canada?

Sorry, just killing a moment of two of time. I'm impressed this thread is still here. It's cool to disagree respectfully.

Okay we were camped across the bay from the machine gun club this weekend. Crunchy greenies on this side, please....big guns that way, please. :
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#76 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 08:11 AM
 
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in my opinion there were 2 mistakes.

1) You left the safety of your vehicle.

2) You drew your weapon when it would not be ok to fire it.


Contrary to many people's actions, guns DO NOT STOP BULLETS, they stop people. You put yourself and your child in far more danger when you stepped out of your car (presumably into his headlights). What if the plan was to carjack you? Step 1 in a carjacking is to remove the driver from the car. What if the plan was to shoot you? What if they had 5 guns trained on you the second you stepped out of the car?

You should never draw or point your weapon as an empty threat. You did not see a weapon, therefore if you had fired on them at the time you drew your weapon, you would have gone to jail for a long time. If you are not prepared AND justified in taking a shot then all you are doing is introducing more danger to the situation. How can most confrontations get worse? Adding a deadly weapon.

Even worse the second you pulled a gun you GAVE THEM JUSTIFICATION TO SHOOT AND KILL YOU. There would be nothing to tell the story besides you with your gun in hand dead on the ground and the other driver, who was "defending himself"... Of course there would be your child in the car, but the other driver did not know that.

There were plenty of much safer ways to resolve this with no direct confrontation. You did not know where a police station was, I understand that. You mentioned that you normally drive with a little extra umph, do you know where local speed traps are? Do you know a restraunt where police often go? All you have to find is 1 police car. If you absolutly cannot find a police car, your options are to drive around till the persuer gets bored, or go to the most public place possible.

What if you had something sticking out of your car door, or had a flat tire, or had some other car problem this person was trying to warn you about? What if it was an undercover police officer thinking he was trailing a drug dealer?
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#77 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy
What if you had something sticking out of your car door, or had a flat tire, or had some other car problem this person was trying to warn you about?
I've stopped and gotten out of the car to tell people about stuff like this - just the other week we did this when somebody's license plate was hanging off. It would never occur to me that somebody would pull a weapon on me.

I too am glad I live in Canada and not the US. For many reasons, but this is one of them.
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#78 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy
in my opinion there were 2 mistakes.

1) You left the safety of your vehicle.

2) You drew your weapon when it would not be ok to fire it.


Contrary to many people's actions, guns DO NOT STOP BULLETS, they stop people. You put yourself and your child in far more danger when you stepped out of your car (presumably into his headlights). What if the plan was to carjack you? Step 1 in a carjacking is to remove the driver from the car. What if the plan was to shoot you? What if they had 5 guns trained on you the second you stepped out of the car?

You should never draw or point your weapon as an empty threat. You did not see a weapon, therefore if you had fired on them at the time you drew your weapon, you would have gone to jail for a long time. If you are not prepared AND justified in taking a shot then all you are doing is introducing more danger to the situation. How can most confrontations get worse? Adding a deadly weapon.

Even worse the second you pulled a gun you GAVE THEM JUSTIFICATION TO SHOOT AND KILL YOU. There would be nothing to tell the story besides you with your gun in hand dead on the ground and the other driver, who was "defending himself"... Of course there would be your child in the car, but the other driver did not know that.

There were plenty of much safer ways to resolve this with no direct confrontation. You did not know where a police station was, I understand that. You mentioned that you normally drive with a little extra umph, do you know where local speed traps are? Do you know a restraunt where police often go? All you have to find is 1 police car. If you absolutly cannot find a police car, your options are to drive around till the persuer gets bored, or go to the most public place possible.

What if you had something sticking out of your car door, or had a flat tire, or had some other car problem this person was trying to warn you about? What if it was an undercover police officer thinking he was trailing a drug dealer?
Welcome to MDC. Excellent first post!
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#79 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 11:28 AM
 
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Welcome to MDC. Excellent first post!
I think I have to agree with you on that one. I appreciate the level-headed critique of what happened.
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#80 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well great. My tread has started the great gun debate.: Not my intention. I have found very few people will ever change their minds on this issue, no matter what side they are on.

I need to address a couple of little things thou...and I admit this is probably a bad idea.. CANADIANS and EUROPEANS, Your welcome. You have the ability to live as you chose because the USA is here to protect you. The only superpower on the planet has "got your back". Please read "Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order".

Gun bans: Here is what has happened in Austraila since it started. "a dramatic rise in violent crime in Australia since the gun ban, along with a relatively flat trend in property crime rates, demonstrating the criminals’ understanding of the basic principles of cost/benefit analysis, choosing the quicker method of confronting an unarmed victim. At the same time, the USA saw significant drops in both violent and property crime rates, proving the adage that an armed society is a polite--and safer--society. -Australian Bureau of Statistics


Anyway......I wanted to know from the DADS if any of them carry? How there wives feel about it? Etc...
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#81 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:31 PM
 
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Well then Moose, why don't you respond to some of the points ShaggyDaddy brought up then. :
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#82 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moose
I need to address a couple of little things thou...and I admit this is probably a bad idea.. CANADIANS and EUROPEANS, Your welcome. You have the ability to live as you chose because the USA is here to protect you.
You think that it is because of the US that every country in Europe has freedom? That's a really interesting concept. Tell me, what did all these countries do before they gave birth to the US a very short time ago?
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#83 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moose
You have the ability to live as you chose because the USA is here to protect you. The only superpower on the planet has "got your back". Please read "Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order".
Lets see. Ireland was overrun by the British. The US did nothing to help, we got free on our own. As did India, among others. World War I started in 1914. The US didn't enter the war until 1917 when a US ship was sunk. World War II started in 1939, but the US didn't enter the war until 1941 when a US base was attacked. The US lost in Vietnam, and guess what - they also lost when the had a war against Canada. You know, that country above you that has gun control.

And the current debacle in Iraq has got nothing to do with protecting the world and everything to do with oil for the US.
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#84 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:49 PM
 
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And the current debacle in Iraq has got nothing to do with protecting the world and everything to do with oil for the US.
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#85 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 02:54 PM
 
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Irishmommy!!! I can not believe people actually think we are protecting anyone anywhere. The only think the government in the US is interested in protecting is it's income, and the big corps. I really hope people know that there are many, many people in the US that know it is WRONG!!

Single mama to Alex(13), Maddy(12), Sam(8), Violet(6), and Ruby(3). fly-by-nursing1.gif
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#86 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moose
Anyway......I wanted to know from the DADS if any of them carry? How there wives feel about it? Etc...
Slightly off topic: What's with the lingo anyway? Carry WHAT? When referring to guns, why is it that the noun is just kind of left out. Is it because the gun is concealed?
Anyway, I'm sure you'll find plenty of Dads on Mothering Dot Commune that have their wives sew handy little cloth holsters onto their baby-slings. That way you can carry a gun and your baby at the same time .
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#87 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
Well then Moose, why don't you respond to some of the points ShaggyDaddy brought up then. :

Fine.

1) You left the safety of your vehicle.

2) You drew your weapon when it would not be ok to fire it.

First:
I opened my door, step out and turned around to face the other car. I had the bulk of my vehicle between myself and the other car. Vehicles are not safe. Your are surounded by glass and sheet metal. You could destroy a car with a can opener and a rock.

Second:
The assumption is I pointed it at the driver. I did not. I don’t point my firearm at anything I don’t intend to shoot. The pistol was pointed in the air and made easily visible. If the situation had called for me to discharge my weapon I would have shot both front tires of his vehicle and put two round in his radiator. The rounds I carry are high expansion glazers. They are specifically designed to expand quickly and dissipate upon impact, no ricochets. There by incapacitating his vehicle so I could leave and not be followed


Lastly:
I am an EMT! I dont take this lightly! I have had people DIE in my arms due to gun related wounds. Anyone else?...

This particular situation felt bad, gut feeling bad. I'm a big guy and very easy going. This night it just felt wrong. And I'm telling you right now If you cant defend yourself when you feel threatened then you WILL become a statistic.
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#88 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moose

Second:
The assumption is I pointed it at the driver. I did not. I don’t point my firearm at anything I don’t intend to shoot. The pistol was pointed in the air and made easily visible. If the situation had called for me to discharge my weapon I would have shot both front tires of his vehicle and put two round in his radiator. The rounds I carry are high expansion glazers. They are specifically designed to expand quickly and dissipate upon impact, no ricochets. There by incapacitating his vehicle so I could leave and not be followed
What if he had a gun?
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#89 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moose
I need to address a couple of little things thou...and I admit this is probably a bad idea.. CANADIANS and EUROPEANS, Your welcome. You have the ability to live as you chose because the USA is here to protect you. The only superpower on the planet has "got your back".
: Oh please.


And I'm really surprised at how many people on this board support what you did - which is in essence committing a crime of gun violence. You threatened to hurt/kill another human. I've been in the position of being followed before and I never felt the need to be carrying a firearm. A cell phone can dial 911, and by not driving to your street you could have found a gas station, a convenience store, a fire station, a police station, an all night drugstore etc etc. Any of those places would have had other people around and you would have been able to find help without resorting to violence.

And with your DD in the car. For shame. What if she had woken up at your yelling and saw her father flashing a gun. Or worse, if those teenagers had a gun themselves and shot her father. What purpose does that serve? You can call yourself an excellent shot, but there is always someone better.
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#90 of 314 Old 07-05-2006, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
What if he had a gun?
If he had gun, and if he had pulled it, and if he had pointed it at me. I would have shot him.
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