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#121 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 01:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mavournin
And I'm really surprised at how many people on this board support what you did - which is in essence committing a crime of gun violence. You threatened to hurt/kill another human. I've been in the position of being followed before and I never felt the need to be carrying a firearm. A cell phone can dial 911, and by not driving to your street you could have found a gas station, a convenience store, a fire station, a police station, an all night drugstore etc etc. Any of those places would have had other people around and you would have been able to find help without resorting to violence.
i'm not sure the replies are necessarily all black and white for or against the op. i surely would NOT have reacted the way the op did... as i read it, my breath caught when i saw he drove down his street. i don't care if you stop a house away, it only takes a quick drive by the next day to see where you really live. i would have been upset with my husband if he followed that course of action, but for many reasons other than just the gun. and i firmly believe that you don't pull a gun as a sign of force... you pull a gun to DO something with it.

that said, i don't think what he did was evil and horrible. we weren't there and i have a tough time passing judgement because of that. i like to think that most of the people who post here are like-minded and i guess i give people the benefit of the doubt. in retrospect, i'm sure the op realizes he could have done a few things different. at the time, i am certain that he felt he was doing his very best to protect his child.
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#122 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 01:21 PM
 
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Here's what I still don't get: this is a board that does not advocate violence against children, yet there has been an awful lot of support for a dad showing his small child violence against another person (and yes, I do consider intimidating another person with a deadly weapon regardless of provocation to be violence). How does this make sense? What's the point of nonviolent parenting if you're going to show your kid that violence is the way to settle a problem outside the family?

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#123 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maxmama
Here's what I still don't get: this is a board that does not advocate violence against children, yet there has been an awful lot of support for a dad showing his small child violence against another person (and yes, I do consider intimidating another person with a deadly weapon regardless of provocation to be violence). How does this make sense? What's the point of nonviolent parenting if you're going to show your kid that violence is the way to settle a problem outside the family?
baby was asleep. granted, baby could wake up, but baby was asleep... i don't think we can argue your point given that fact. i would have a problem with the gun use if the child had been awake, for sure... but that goes back to my belief that you only pull a gun when you're going to use it. if the child saw that, yes, it would be horrific and it makes me want to cry to think about it... but if the option is my child seeing that versus my child and myself getting to live another day... not fun stuff to think about, huh? (ftr: i do not think the op was in a life or death situation.)
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#124 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teambearbhan
baby was asleep. granted, baby could wake up, but baby was asleep... i don't think we can argue your point given that fact. i would have a problem with the gun use if the child had been awake, for sure... but that goes back to my belief that you only pull a gun when you're going to use it. if the child saw that, yes, it would be horrific and it makes me want to cry to think about it... but if the option is my child seeing that versus my child and myself getting to live another day... not fun stuff to think about, huh? (ftr: i do not think the op was in a life or death situation.)
So, the OP would have done something else (e.g., drive to a police station) had his kid been awake? I don't buy it.

And FTR, the OP said he didn't know where the police station was -- there are only four in Seattle. It's not that hard to know where they are.

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#125 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cardinal
I think it is important that Moose and other dads have a forum that they can talk amongst themselves, and they can ask that only "other dads" post in reply, just like I and other mamas ask for respectful and non-inflammatory remarks in our own posts.
I know this is a controversial subject (dads, not guns) but I have to agree w/that. True, this IS Mothering but I don't go over to Diapering to disagree. I suppose I could, but I respect that they have their own community. I could pop in w/some valuable insights () but I don't know them and I don't know their tightknit community. And, it seems like other forums are pretty cohesive & we respect them. Maybe not agree w/them but we respect their commonality and their desire to communicate and hang out as intelligent people/parents.

I remember when the male nanny got a really hard time b/c he was posting on mothering topics; ie. HOW can YOU understand b/c you're a BOY and a young one at that?!?!?!?!? Some Moms got all upset and snarky w/him for awhile for being in the non "young kid" forums but he hung out and persevered and seems pretty comfy now.

So glass houses and all that. Yeah, some of these people own guns and seem to appreciate them. It's our right to disagree. But, maybe gently since this is a forum specifically created for dads to find other dads. Maybe let them hash it out for awhile. Maybe Dads should be a Tribe instead of a forum? : Okay, bash me now!
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#126 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babygrant
I have had my husband read over everything and he is as horrified as I am about the whole incident. I will get him to reply tommorow when he is home from work, just so you get another "dads point of view" from him.
My hubby won't bother to post. But he read through the original post, muttered "moron" and walked away.

Sorry Moose.
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#127 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blessed
My hubby won't bother to post. But he read through the original post, muttered "moron" and walked away.

Sorry Moose.
Mine had a similar response.
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#128 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by curlyfry
Mine had a similar response.
Mine did too!
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#129 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 03:41 PM
 
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I don't say Moron.

I live in the Seattle area and if someone were following me for multiple miles down dead end streets I would do everything in my power to protect myself and child.


Period.



Moose if I was in a similar situation and had the proper permits you would find me doing the same thing, however I am GLAD that you listed that you later found out where the police department was and that you KNOW that is the better option. To bad that wasn't available to you at the time.


Personally seeing as I don't own a gun I would probably have dialed 911 and had them send a unit to pull the people over. make sure they got pulled over in the least for following me.


but you do what you can with what you have. You don't know what the person in the other car has or has planned.

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#130 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maxmama
So, the OP would have done something else (e.g., drive to a police station) had his kid been awake? I don't buy it.

And FTR, the OP said he didn't know where the police station was -- there are only four in Seattle. It's not that hard to know where they are.
good point on the first statement. as for the second... i was born and raised in san diego and spent six years of adulthood there and couldn't tell you where the police stations were. i can find a highway patrol office eventually because they're by the freeways and they have signs to notify you. i knew one sheriff substation when i lived in the sticks because it was next to the only grocery store in town... but beyond that, no way.

but there are other options besides a police station...
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#131 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 04:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pjlioness
As a law enforcement officer, your dh has had much more training than most regular people who have/carry them, so I'm sure he is well equipped to use it only when necessary. I am okay with off-duty law enforcement officers (and perhaps those who have had similar rigorous training) carrying guns.

However, no matter who the individuals are, the introduction of a gun into a tense situation means that it is more likely for someone to get hurt or killed. In your case, I'm sure your husband's good aim and quick reflexes would most likely result in the other person involved getting winged (and unable to shoot if they were attempting to), while everyone else would be safe.
I spent 4 years as the attorney in charge of discipline/terminations of our police officers. I can tell you that this is SO untrue. Officers are trained to stop the threat. They are not trained to "wing" anybody. In fact, if an officer had decided to try to "wing" a suspect it would have been considered an out-of-policy shooting. Additionally, the amount of time they actually are required to spend on the firing range is minimal. Once they qualify, it's once a year. That's it. Just because someone is a law enforcement officer does not guarantee that they have anymore firearms training than I do.

In officer-involved shootings, we always tried not to be too harsh in our second-guessing of the officer's decision to use deadly force. I always listened to the officer's account of what happened, and his reasoning behind pulling his weapon. Believe me, I heard much more reactionary weapon-draws from officers than the one described by the original poster. It's an entirely subjective thing.

I take the power of my gun seriously. I train with it. I shoot with it. If I feel at all uneasy about what to do with it, I ask my dh to take me out and refresh me. Otherwise I won't carry it. In my work with the City, I knew a Deputy Chief who had never drawn his weapon in 20 years with the department. He only took it out to qualify with it once a year. Indeed, he didn't clean the thing regularly. Personally, I think he would be more of a danger than I am. At least my gun is clean. And I KNOW I spend more hours a year shooting mine than he does his. I'd dare say I'm a better shot than he is.

Yes, it's true that you should never pull your weapon unless you are willing to use it. Clearly, in the original post, the poster felt willing to use it if necessary.

It's nice to think that we live in a "can't we all just get along?" kind of world, but the reality of it is that the vast majority of people out there do not feel like that. If they did, that punk would never have been following Moose the way he was. Everyone is different. I've had too many experiences with thugs, myself, to have faith that just because I want a world without violence, that the Euro-car driving fool that is racing down the road feels the same way, you know? It's unrealistic to think that everything can be talked out with everybody. Some people don't care. They are the reasons I carry my .45.
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#132 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BusyMommy
I know this is a controversial subject (dads, not guns) but I have to agree w/that. True, this IS Mothering but I don't go over to Diapering to disagree.
This is not a topic that exclusively affects people with penises who have children. It affects us all.
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#133 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
This is not a topic that exclusively affects people with penises who have children. It affects us all.
'


Not saying it doesn't, and not trying to start flames. but this thread was made in the Dad's forum asking Dad's a question specifically.


Read what the dad's forum is about up in the rules. Sorta a safe haven for us dad's to be ourselves. Moms are MORE than welcome just like dad's are MORE than welcome all over the boards, but she was just taking into account on where this was posted.

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#134 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 07:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
'


Read what the dad's forum is about up in the rules.
I think perhaps the OP was placed in the wrong forum then. It says this in the rules:
Quote:
As such, posts to this forum should be focused on parenting topics specific to men.
This is neither specifically a parenting topic, nor is it a topic specific to men.
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#135 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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If my husband pulled a gun on someone for them following him instead of getting alternative help, I would be steaming : then again i know he would never because we don't believe in guns (not for protection or hunting either or any use) but i'm just a helpless Canadian -what do i know. :
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#136 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by niki_73
If my husband pulled a gun on someone for them following him instead of getting alternative help, I would be steaming : then again i know he would never because we don't believe in guns (not for protection or hunting either or any use) but i'm just a helpless Canadian -what do i know. :
Oh no you dih-int! I KNOW you did not just imply Americans are more into guns or something! Just kidding.

I think maybe living in Canada could effect the tension you feel when driving that is different down here in the US...I think it's fine to pull out a gun when someone is tailing you at night and literally harassing/stalking you and making you feel threatened!
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#137 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:18 PM
 
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I'm sure culture plays a big part in it.
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#138 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:31 PM
 
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Honestly, I'm still struggling that someone who threatened violence against another person is being praised. The stance of MDC is one of gentle discipline. Guns aren't gentle. Threatening to kill someone isn't gentle. What is it doing here?
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#139 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
Honestly, I'm still struggling that someone who threatened violence against another person is being praised. The stance of MDC is one of gentle discipline. Guns aren't gentle. Threatening to kill someone isn't gentle. What is it doing here?
I don't think the two are inextricably related. He didn't talk about pulling a gun on his children or his wife. You can't expect that the entire world follows your gentle approach to life. Be gentle with your loved ones and everyone else who merits it, but if someone isn't being gentle with you and your family is threatened, they don't merit anything gentle. The question, of course, is whether Moose's family was actually threatened. As to that question, I defer to his judgment since he was the one who was actually there.

I try to be as gentle as possible with my children, with my mother, with my spouse, my family, my friends, etc. But if someone threatens my family, gentleness flies right out the window. I want to be gentle, always. I just don't want to be "gently" standing over my child's grave. I don't want to "gently" leave my children without a mother.

Does that make me a brutal American? Apparently to some it does. But judge not lest you be judged.
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#140 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 08:54 PM
 
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If you don't want to be doing things 'gently' then don't join a forum where gentle is the way.

Judgement is a good thing. It's what keeps my children safe. If I judge something to be inappropriate I remove them from that situation. If I judge someone to be dangerous I don't let them near my child. Inherent in responsible parenting is good judgement. And I (along with this site) judge violence to be unacceptable.
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#141 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 09:02 PM
 
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Either you're misunderstanding me or you're being deliberately confrontational in a situation that doesn't warrant it. I practice gentle discipline in my life. But what I can't control are the actions of others. I will never stand idly by while someone threatens my kids. That just will never happen.

Out of curiosity, what would you do if someone threatened your children?
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#142 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 09:16 PM
 
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Just a thought here...I have seen so many threads go down in screaming flames once this tone is set. Right or wrong we all have our own opinions but I'll bet you a quarter this thread disappears after heating up a few more notches.
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#143 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 09:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BusyMommy
Just a thought here...I have seen so many threads go down in screaming flames once this tone is set. Right or wrong we all have our own opinions but I'll bet you a quarter this thread disappears after heating up a few more notches.
Not gonna take you up on that one. I'm amazed it's gone this far. Lax moderators on this board, huh?

Just kidding, mods
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#144 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by osburnsa
I don't think the two are inextricably related. He didn't talk about pulling a gun on his children or his wife. You can't expect that the entire world follows your gentle approach to life. Be gentle with your loved ones and everyone else who merits it, but if someone isn't being gentle with you and your family is threatened, they don't merit anything gentle. The question, of course, is whether Moose's family was actually threatened. As to that question, I defer to his judgment since he was the one who was actually there.

I try to be as gentle as possible with my children, with my mother, with my spouse, my family, my friends, etc. But if someone threatens my family, gentleness flies right out the window. I want to be gentle, always. I just don't want to be "gently" standing over my child's grave. I don't want to "gently" leave my children without a mother.

Does that make me a brutal American? Apparently to some it does. But judge not lest you be judged.
:
ITA with this post!
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#145 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
I think perhaps the OP was placed in the wrong forum then. It says this in the rules:

This is neither specifically a parenting topic, nor is it a topic specific to men.

How much force should be used to protect our offspring?


Sounds like a proper topic to me. but then I am a man and this IS the guys area and all.

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#146 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
Honestly, I'm still struggling that someone who threatened violence against another person is being praised. The stance of MDC is one of gentle discipline. Guns aren't gentle. Threatening to kill someone isn't gentle. What is it doing here?

The person following them also threatened violance.

Least in my area of washington/Seattle that is how it would be taken.

The cops even told Moose what he did was proper under the circumstances. that should say something for what to be expected when being chased/followed/harrassed around here.

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#147 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
If you don't want to be doing things 'gently' then don't join a forum where gentle is the way.

Judgement is a good thing. It's what keeps my children safe. If I judge something to be inappropriate I remove them from that situation. If I judge someone to be dangerous I don't let them near my child. Inherent in responsible parenting is good judgement. And I (along with this site) judge violence to be unacceptable.

As it should be.

I just hope your husband is never mugged or beaten in front of you.

That would be bad....

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#148 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by osburnsa
Either you're misunderstanding me or you're being deliberately confrontational in a situation that doesn't warrant it. I practice gentle discipline in my life. But what I can't control are the actions of others. I will never stand idly by while someone threatens my kids. That just will never happen.

Out of curiosity, what would you do if someone threatened your children?

To be honest? Protect them.


Either get them out of the situation and if that was not possible, do whatever nessesary to protect them.

Protect them.

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#149 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
To be honest? Protect them.


Either get them out of the situation and if that was not possible, do whatever nessesary to protect them.

Protect them.
Exactly! That's exactly what I'm saying. You use your judgment in the given situation. You do whatever you can to protect your kids. Period.
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#150 of 314 Old 07-06-2006, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
The person following them also threatened violance.

Least in my area of washington/Seattle that is how it would be taken.
Um, do you live in the same Seattle I do? The one where you get ticketed for jaywalking and traffic comes to a stop at every four-way because no one wants to go out of turn? The one in Washington?

Seriously, in THIRTY YEARS of living in Seattle I have never once felt in physical danger, and as a woman I would expect to feel more at risk, not less.

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