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Old 07-09-2006, 07:36 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Cardinal
Unfortunately, this isn't a peaceful world. There are always going to be people trying to hurt you and your family. I wish that we could always use peace, love, and harmony to solve our woes, but that isn't reality. Whenever possible, the least harmful/violent method of diffusing a situation is best. However, from what I could tell from the original post, the OP didn't have any other choice but to SHOW his weapon. He didn't USE force and didn't HARM anyone. I don't understand why people WOULDN'T support him.[/QUOTE]
You're right that unfortunately this isn't a peaceful world. But the behaviour the OP showed keeps it going that way. I agree that whenever possible the least violent solution is best ... and many people have shown that the OP had many less violent options available to him. That's why people do not support him. If he was backed into a corner with absolutley no other choices I wouldn't be in such opposition ... but he had many other choices. All of them less violent than threatening to kill someone.
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
You're right that unfortunately this isn't a peaceful world. But the behaviour the OP showed keeps it going that way. I agree that whenever possible the least violent solution is best ... and many people have shown that the OP had many less violent options available to him. That's why people do not support him. If he was backed into a corner with absolutley no other choices I wouldn't be in such opposition ... but he had many other choices. All of them less violent than threatening to kill someone.
ITA. It is being made out that the OP was in a "us or them" to the death scenario which, from the story he told in his original post, does not seem to be the case.

Also, to Moose, I read my DH your OP because I know that you were seeking a male perspective and his response was "that's insane."
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Old 07-09-2006, 09:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
You're right that unfortunately this isn't a peaceful world. But the behaviour the OP showed keeps it going that way. I agree that whenever possible the least violent solution is best ... and many people have shown that the OP had many less violent options available to him. That's why people do not support him. If he was backed into a corner with absolutley no other choices I wouldn't be in such opposition ... but he had many other choices. All of them less violent than threatening to kill someone.
May I ask if you read all the responses? Many people do support him. He says he felt like he didn't have that many other choices.

The OP WAS NOT violent. He didn't fire his gun or hurt someone. He displayed a gun. That is NOT VIOLENCE.
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Old 07-09-2006, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal
The OP WAS NOT violent. He didn't fire his gun or hurt someone. He displayed a gun. That is NOT VIOLENCE.
I tend to think that pointing a gun at somebody and threatening to shoot them is kind of an act of violence. Displaying a gun would be more like something you see in the movies where the person lifts up their shirt and "displays" the gun tucked into their pants.

From the OP:
Quote:
I get out, pull my 9mm Ruger out from my under arm holster, point it at the driver and yell "You have 5 seconds to leave before I start shooting!"
I think that LadyMarmalade was explaining why everyone does not support what Moose did. I think it's pretty evident that lots of people DO support what he did. But also, some do not.
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Old 07-09-2006, 09:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cardinal
May I ask if you read all the responses?
I was actually contemplating asking you that same question, but decided I had more integrity than that.

If you don't understand what I'm saying - I'm sorry. It's not my responsibility to explain to you why threatening to kill someone is violent. If you can't understand that, there's no use in me discussing anything else because you're just not going to get it.
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Old 07-09-2006, 09:46 PM
 
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And since Moose wants opinions from other dads ... I can't say exactly what my DH said because it would get me banned. He said (with me editing the inappropriate parts) he thinks the OP is a freak and is scared for his children because they're being put in deadly situations by their father. He thinks it was a total over reaction, and that this is the reason society is the way it is - after hearing about situations like this one, this is why others think they can't resolve simple confrontation without threatening to kill someone.

It's a vicious cycle.
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Old 07-09-2006, 10:12 PM
 
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I haven't read all the posts, but I kind think someone following you home is an act of violence. Am I correct that you led this person to your house though? I would have driven to the nearest police station!

Oh, and my dh totally thinks what you did was the right thing. Then he started bothering me about getting my concealed weapons permit!

added: ok I see you didn't lead him to your house, but close enough-he could totally look for your car! Scary!

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Old 07-09-2006, 10:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~lioneyes~
I haven't read all the posts, but I kind think someone following you home is an act of violence. Am I correct that you led this person to your house though? I would have driven to the nearest police station!

Oh, and my dh totally thinks what you did was the right thing. Then he started bothering me about getting my concealed weapons permit!

added: ok I see you didn't lead him to your house, but close enough-he could totally look for your car! Scary!
The OP stated he didn't know where the police station was located, but has since found out in case the situation happens again.

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Old 07-09-2006, 10:32 PM
 
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Well, hey, at least no-one's calling anyone a moron any longer. We've evolved in the civilities of our debate.




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Tell ya what lets have a Showling Showdown and it will deicided who gets the Shang Gwan Lou <sp on all of these lol>
Tremble before my Xena Warrior Cry..... I, too, have evolved into the next stage...watch out little boys who would pick on my family! Oh no wait, who's the gal who has guns hidden in her breasts...is that from Peter Sellers or Austin Powers?
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
I was actually contemplating asking you that same question, but decided I had more integrity than that.

If you don't understand what I'm saying - I'm sorry. It's not my responsibility to explain to you why threatening to kill someone is violent. If you can't understand that, there's no use in me discussing anything else because you're just not going to get it.



you are just being snarky and snide now...
Please don't be rude. I am intelligent and pretty good at contemplating, understanding, and analyzing information. Let's not be petty and rude, LM.
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lazyhead
I tend to think that pointing a gun at somebody and threatening to shoot them is kind of an act of violence. Displaying a gun would be more like something you see in the movies where the person lifts up their shirt and "displays" the gun tucked into their pants.

From the OP:


I think that LadyMarmalade was explaining why everyone does not support what Moose did. I think it's pretty evident that lots of people DO support what he did. But also, some do not.
The OP later stated that he did not point it at the person, but showed it. If you had read all the posts then I believe you'd have found that out.
See below.
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:22 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Moose]Fine.

I opened my door, step out and turned around to face the other car. I had the bulk of my vehicle between myself and the other car. Vehicles are not safe. Your are surounded by glass and sheet metal. You could destroy a car with a can opener and a rock.

Second:
The assumption is I pointed it at the driver. I did not. I don’t point my firearm at anything I don’t intend to shoot. The pistol was pointed in the air and made easily visible. If the situation had called for me to discharge my weapon I would have shot both front tires of his vehicle and put two round in his radiator. The rounds I carry are high expansion glazers. They are specifically designed to expand quickly and dissipate upon impact, no ricochets. There by incapacitating his vehicle so I could leave and not be followed


These are Moose's words. I read all the posts. He was not violent.

He was acting defensively.
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cardinal
The OP later stated that he did not point it at the person, but showed it. If you had read all the posts then I believe you'd have found that out.
I have read all the posts. I am sticking with the original story.
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini
The OP stated he didn't know where the police station was located, but has since found out in case the situation happens again.
Thanks for letting me know! I did make sure to say I didn't have time to read all the posts-fussy baby. I'm so glad he went through with finding the station. After I wrote my post, I got to thinking it's probably harder to find stations in a city than it is in my bity town!

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Old 07-10-2006, 12:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade
And since Moose wants opinions from other dads ... I can't say exactly what my DH said because it would get me banned. He said (with me editing the inappropriate parts) he thinks the OP is a freak and is scared for his children because they're being put in deadly situations by their father. He thinks it was a total over reaction, and that this is the reason society is the way it is - after hearing about situations like this one, this is why others think they can't resolve simple confrontation without threatening to kill someone.

It's a vicious cycle.
My DH said the same...

I won't state my opinion because as a mom it is not valued by the Dads here it seems...

 
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini


I totally back you Moose. We all do what we believe to be necessary in whatever situation we are in.
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:43 AM
 
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I get out, pull my 9mm Ruger out from my under arm holster, point it at the driver and yell "You have 5 seconds to leave before I start shooting!"
HE POINTED IT AT THE DRIVER! For those who are saying, he pointed it in the air, he said that in a later post, his original post said he POITNED IT AT THE DRIVER.
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:46 AM
 
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Hi, Hubby of Liki posting here...

I mostly agree with Shaggy's statements.

But I want to also state that I support the OP. There is no perfect answer, and the OP stated that lessons were learned, and a new plan has been enabled.

I think I may be coasting off the original topic, (please forgive me, but I am outraged and feel a [testoterone driven?] need to respond to some of the ignorant (albeit off the original topic) comments about the United States, Gun Ownership, and some historical misinformation....

....Background:
I am male (obviously), a father, highly educated (BFA and Master's Degree), a school teacher, a (30%)Disabled Combat Veteran, Owner of a few firearms, and holder of a Concealed Carry Permit(but I have seldom actually carried a gun with me anywhere).

1) Violence.
The threat of violence equals the use of violence in the eyes of the law of every state in the Union. What the person has to ask is "Is it JUSTIFIED Violence?"

Not having been there, and after reading the OP, I side with the OP. I think following the man for significant distances in an automobile is also a THREAT and therefore it constitutes violence. Escalation of the violence MAY result in a gunfight, but the OP got lucky and the threat turned out to be a bluff.

This event could happen in any city in any country and to blithely state that the US is a Violent place because it was in this instance is unsupported. Sadly the US is a violent place SOMETIMES. The OP was just prepared for it.

Critique: He could have done some other things to de-escalate the situation before he drew the weapon. Question of the day: Could the OP live with the outcome if the other guy had not backed down or also drawn a weapon?

2) Gun Statistics. If you are going to argue about gun control or gun rights using internet links, at least take the time to look at and reference links with at least a modicum of unbiased objectivity.

In the United States, we are a nation formed by people who were screwed over by the "Government" of a distant land that did not recognize our basic humanity much less our rights as citizens. Therefore we are culturally imbued with a strong distrust for the "Government" inasmuch as it pertains to our "Freedoms". The Firearm was (and is) seen as the basic element of control over a government that ceases to represent and begins to oppress its people. Defending family and home are a by-product of that ability.

Criminals in EVERY country have guns. Oppressive regimes have Guns. In some countries(the United States), honest law-abiding citizens have guns too. Historically and statistically speaking, few countries have an over-abundance of all three at the same time.

The Anti-gun lobby/activists/media would have us believe that we have no need for guns as the "Government" is there to protect us. This is absurd. The response time of an overworked police department in the age of Meth-monkies and crack-heads is a serious consideration. The idea of a "Protective" government ASSUMES that you can let said government know you have a problem and exactly where you are.

ASSUMES, you say? Yes, forensics will prove definatively where, when, how, and (Maybe) even why you were murdered. Sometimes they even catch the dirtbag that did it. But you are still dead.

I work daily with Convicted Felons who ALL plan to get a gun immediately after they get laid when they are released back onto the streets. NONE can go into a gun store and legally buy one. So gun laws mean what? NADA.

3) A bit of history. (US military action)

There was an "invasion" by the US against Canada. It was a (small) part of the War of 1812. Which by many accounts is listed as a win for the .....(wait for it)....... United States.

The "defeats" that resulted were mostly attributed to British leadership, and generally unprofessional American generals.

Yeah, there is some cause for national pride. Go Canucks! Um, I mean Brits,..Er...Tecumseh, Oh, Nevermind!

US involvement in the two world wars can be summed up easily. The US pulled everybodies fat out of the fire.

WWI- The US got involved Loooong before the Germans sank the Lusitania ( British ship by the way). We just sent troops in after it was evident that the inept Europeans were going to louse it up and let the Germans take over the continent.

WWII- Arsenal of Democracy. look it up.
10,000 Americans killed in action at Normandy alone. Any smug (explitive deleted) who can go to Normandy and look at the THOUSANDS of grave markers there and say that the United States fighting MAN is not responsible for the existence of a free Europe (World?) is kidding themselves.

Vietnam (et al.)- The US military did not lose a single protracted battle during the whole conflict. NOT ONE. Nor did the US unleash its combined military might upon the neck of the Vietnamese people. Fortunately for them.
The Vietnam war was misguided, mislead, and in retrospect, unwinnable given the constrictions artificially imposed by the leaders in Washington.

Initially, It was to have been a plug against the percieved threat of Communism. It became a monster. "Lost" the war is a relative term.

Iraq- Nope never should have gone there probably. But WE took the entire nation (Said to have had amongst the World's top 5 best armies) down in three weeks without even using all of our available military.

The present mess can be laid at the desk of GWB. NOT the US tradition of upholding democracy and freedom.


Go out and hug a tree and thank whatever passes for a deity in your house that Americans with guns are willing to visit violence on those who would prevent you from doing so. We as a nation have our problems, but thank God we were here when all the rest of you called upon us. You Canadians are fortunate because anybody that threatens you has to come through us first.

Thus endeth the sermon.
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Old 07-10-2006, 09:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by paxye
I won't state my opinion because as a mom it is not valued by the Dads here it seems...

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by babygrant
HE POINTED IT AT THE DRIVER! For those who are saying, he pointed it in the air, he said that in a later post, his original post said he POITNED IT AT THE DRIVER.
He later reposted and said that he did not point it at the driver. Did you read all the posts and especially my posts on the last two pages? I quoted his words. He retold the story and said he did not point it at any one.
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cardinal
He later reposted and said that he did not point it at the driver. Did you read all the posts and especially my posts on the last two pages? I quoted his words. He retold the story and said he did not point it at any one.
I think you mean to say that he CHANGED his story. I believe that he did this because he didn't receive the universal approval for his actions that he was seeking.

And to state again, I have read all the posts. I swear
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:20 AM
 
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no matter where you pointed your gun. I stand behind your judgement Moose.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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Old 07-10-2006, 11:52 AM
 
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I have a bumper sticker that says you can no more win a war than you can in an earthquake. Nobody wins in a war...

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Old 07-10-2006, 12:39 PM
 
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He later reposted and said that he did not point it at the driver. Did you read all the posts and especially my posts on the last two pages? I quoted his words. He retold the story and said he did not point it at any one.
Yes, I've read everything. I agree with Lazyhead. Changed his story when he got critiqued for pointing the gun at the driver.
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babygrant
Yes, I've read everything. I agree with Lazyhead. Changed his story when he got critiqued for pointing the gun at the driver.
Well, if you don't believe what the Original Poster wrote, then why even respond to anything he writes in the first place? If he is lying about what happened and is changing his story to appease people on the internet, why even voice your concerns? I believe what he wrote and I believe that he probably had to come back and retype his post -- most likely because he typed in a heated moment the first time and didn't concentrate on every cotton pickin' detail of the event. It was probably a very stressful situation and the experience may have really affected him. If you don't believe the OP and his words, I can't imagine why you'd even bother to continue posting on this thread.
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:27 PM
 
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He had every right to point the gun at the driver and warn them to leave.


The cops told him he did.


End of story right?

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Old 07-10-2006, 01:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua
He had every right to point the gun at the driver and warn them to leave.


The cops told him he did.


End of story right?
Not everyone equates legal with moral.
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by swimswamswum
Not everyone equates legal with moral.


Well on that stance I believe he is morally obligated to protect his kids the best way he knows how.


So if you are going to morally judge him, if a woman was in the same place and had performed the same actions would you be judging her as harshly?


(that is not a snarky question btw)


A man was defending his kids using snap judgements that worked for the best in this situation. I understand that 'attempting' to take the moral high ground and proclaim 'guns are the devil' is one route to go. But I don't believe in that and my Moral High Ground tells me he was Morally and Legally in the right.

Not all people have the same morals, and that doesn't mean people with different morals than you are 'bad'. Just 'different'.


judgements get us no where in life, and I would rather teach my children to be 'accepting' to a point.


If someone implies they are going to inflict harm upon you, do everything you can to protect yourself and make sure you come out of the situation in the least harm possible. If that means run away? Run away. If that means 'hand them your wallet', then hand them your wallet. If all else fails and that means standing up for yourself, then you had better stand up for yourself.


That is what I want teach my children.

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Old 07-10-2006, 02:01 PM
 
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First of all, I am once again shocked that a board I used to go to for its gentle perspectives is filled with people who condone the use of force.

Second, the OP's post is sexist: why would only dads pack heat?
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieface
First of all, I am once again shocked that a board I used to go to for its gentle perspectives is filled with people who condone the use of force.

Second, the OP's post is sexist: why would only dads pack heat?



1-He is not sexist. he posted a question to fathers in the 'Dad's' area. Check where you are lurking

2-There was no violance on either side. just implied violance from both sides. And any protective mamma bear would protect her children tooth and nail so implieing that he was wrong in what he did is sexist on your part. Not saying that all mom's would react the same in THIS situation, but all the mom's I know personally would protect their children tooth and nail.

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