Why do Police have guns? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 144 Old 02-28-2007, 08:52 PM
 
heldt123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Is crazy a location?
Posts: 2,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma_momma View Post
I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!
Well said.

My hubby also carries his weapon off duty for the same reasons.

Mom to two boys, ages 8 and 11, and one blessing due May 8th.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 baby.gif 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40

heldt123 is offline  
#62 of 144 Old 02-28-2007, 09:13 PM
 
mamabadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,840
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchamama View Post
Solidiers and police have guns for the same reason, to enforce the will of the state, and those in control of the state. The question is really just weather a) you agree with the state's right to enforce anything or b) you agree with the existance of the state.
(SKIP...)
Sooooo while this thread is not about the merits or demerits of cops and soldiers it is most certainly not true that the only reasons cops have guns is becuase they are protecting the good guys. They are most certainly protecting somebody, its a matter for debate how "good" those somebodies always are.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say in an earlier post. It's not as though police or soldiers are just individuals who decide, out of the blue, to get a weapon and go around fighting crime and injustice, like Batman. They work for the state. What the police/military do depends on what the state wants from them, not on whether the individual officers are good people or not. They may be ordered to do things which are legitimate ways of defending the public; or they may be ordered to commit atrocities; or anything in between. Taking offense on behalf of loved ones who are soldiers is missing the point. Soldiers do what they're ordered to, and they're not personally responsible for the government's agenda.
mamabadger is offline  
#63 of 144 Old 03-01-2007, 10:02 AM
 
somasoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Syracuse by way of Baltimore going to Oregon
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Soldiers do what they're ordered to, and they're not personally responsible for the government's agenda.
I understand what you are saying, and don't want to get bogged down in semantics here.........

But, if a soldier/policeman/defender of the state came to my house and, I dunno, killed my kids or something, I'd take that personally. And you best know, so should whoever did such a thing.
somasoul is offline  
#64 of 144 Old 03-02-2007, 11:45 AM
 
shannonc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PareMesAlt View Post
I explained to him that a Soldiers job is to kill people that their government wishes them to kill (aka enemies), usually on a battlefield during a war, and that was why they have guns. I did not want him playing with soldiers, because of this.
I cannot even believe you told a child this. Way to ruin the way he thinks of an entire group of people, many of them young men and women college aged who joined to learn skills and get college money and maybe even protect citizens like you and your child. Since you brought him up first I will use Hitler as an example, remember that the people who fought Hitler's soldiers (AKA enemies) were ours and our allies soldiers, I wonder what the world would be like if they didn't?
shannonc is offline  
#65 of 144 Old 03-02-2007, 02:06 PM
 
Valkyrie9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PareMesAlt View Post
These are important points, however, my main issue is not concerned with these ideas, but more about how we are so willing to accept violence as a fact of life. That to survive we must accept that someone has to have lethal weaponry, if not ourselves than some authority must have them. If we accept this, what does it tell our kids? We are powerless, without lethal weaponry?
You know, I am not sure how to address that question. I think the best we can do is to be real with our kids about the violence that is out there, and teach them through example about ways to make peoples' lives better. As one thought, I often think about what life might be like if doulas were available to at-risk teens: would a positive birthing & breastfeeding experience ultimately lead to a better adult? If moms were taught bonding and nutrition steps (via BFing), would their babies grow into more secure adults? I think so. Anyway, that's one idea about how to address reality, but show kids that there are ways of making the world better in the hopes of making reality nicer. KWIM?

That said, I'm the proud wife of an LEO. To me, his firearm is part of the insurance package that his agency provides ME and our daughter. As a peace officer, my husband enters into a covenant with the public to protect and serve. His gun and his bulletproof vest are tools to help ensure he comes home to us every night.
Valkyrie9 is offline  
#66 of 144 Old 03-02-2007, 02:29 PM
 
anarchamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannonc View Post
I cannot even believe you told a child this. Way to ruin the way he thinks of an entire group of people, many of them young men and women college aged who joined to learn skills and get college money and maybe even protect citizens like you and your child. Since you brought him up first I will use Hitler as an example, remember that the people who fought Hitler's soldiers (AKA enemies) were ours and our allies soldiers, I wonder what the world would be like if they didn't?
No offence but just because the US has a draft on the poor doesen't mean A)those people want to be there b)what they do is right c) the existance of a standing army is right. I tell my kids in a child appropriate way exactly what I think of cops and armies, that there are good people and bad people who do those jobs like any jobs. But that those people work within a system that I think is wrong and obligates them to do things I think are wrong. And more importantly I think I try to model and surround them with people who will let them see how I believe a better world is built not just keep the scary world at bay. I also try to explain who the "bad guys" are and why I think they are bad, what forces people to the point of criminal violence.
anarchamama is offline  
#67 of 144 Old 04-10-2007, 03:22 PM
 
Ms Ladybug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=PareMesAlt;7324000]All I can think of is that they should not have guns and that they have them intimidate people. Perhaps, the best reason is that they have guns to wound people not kill them. Any thoughts?
QUOTE]

Since it was brought up a couple times, I'd like to touch on the intimidation factor. EVERY time my husband draws his gun, he's fully prepared (mentally) to fire it. He does NOT use it to "intimidate" anyone. It is for his protection as well as the public's.
And he would never shoot to wound, ALWAYS shoot to kill.
Ms Ladybug is offline  
#68 of 144 Old 05-03-2007, 08:06 PM
 
gcgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
When I was in Switzerland, staying with a fellow grad sutdent of my dh, I was shocked at the number of guns in the home. The father was a surgeon, the mother was a painter & poet, and the son was a PhD engineer, but both males were trained in gun use, and practiced often at the local gun club (there are many). People aren't afraid to be real and learn to use these guns. They don't hide them from the children and get all secretive -- which I think makes it more likely that kids will be silly and stupid when/if they do 'find' a gun in someone's house.

edited for manic typos
This is common in Switzerland. They have one of the highest, if not THE highest, levels of guns per capita in that country. Makes you wonder what's wrong with US, eh?

I suspect it has something to do with gun culture. Switzerland has a POSITIVE gun culture, wherein children are trained to respect and use guns, they have shooting contests all the time, and shooting is practically their national pasttime. However, they have one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world as well. Contrast that to the U.S., where we have FEWER guns per capita but three times the gun crime. Also consider that most Americans get their knowledge of guns from TV shows, and you begin to see the difference.
gcgirl is offline  
#69 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 02:19 AM
 
dadinblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lildevil77 View Post
My dh is a police officer in a 'bad' town. It is always shoot to kill. The only time they draw their gun is when there is no other choice. Yes there are less lethal solutions but with someone who is on drugs or just not right in the mind those means don't always work, my husband has used a tazer on a man who was on crack and it barely fazed him, same with pepper spray. We tell our children that he carries a gun to keep him safe and keep good people safe. His town has a set of peace officers that do not carry a gun, those guys have it much harder, as pp said just seeing a gun is a deterent for some. My dh hopes he never has to use his gun and I do too but if it comes down to it, I'd rather him come home alive.
Yep.

I am a police officer. There is no "shoot to incapacitate" or "shoot the gun out of the bad-guy's hand". The aim is into centre of mass and if that doesn't work (body armour or drug effects, like cocaine psychosis) then protocol says one to the head.

Police officers are tasked by society to be the response to the threat. We are the first line, after us come SWAT and the special tactics groups. I have to carry the tools I need in order to address a wide range of problems I will encounter during my day. Speeder? Got my ticket book. Two drunks fighting? Got mace and a Tazer. Crazed gunman shooting up Vermont Tech? Got my gun.

A $1000 less-than-lethal setup isn't effective outside of 20' and inside of 20' is a killing zone. Cops aren't expendable, so we have to deal with the problem from outside of the KZ. Ergo gun.

It's fine to be a pacifist and to want to shelter your child from the realities of the world. But the truth is that soldiers don't carry guns to kill people, they carry a tool to effect their job, just like carpenters carry hammers. Did you know more people are killed (in Canada) by hammers each year than by purposeful gunfire? Should we outlaw hammers?

We have to carry the tools our adversaries carry in order to do our jobs. In an ideal Utopian world, no one would have guns, and we could all wander around like British bobbies, but even they are getting armaments.

And yes, everyday I go to work, I pray that I won't have to shoot anyone. But I also know that I am ready to do so, if needed to protect myself or my people.

Please help your kid to see that guns are tools. Used properly and by people qualified in their use, they are safe and effective. Guns are a part of American culture, in fact worldwide culture. By preventing kids from learning about guns and learning the safety rules, you create a rabid curiosity and when your boy sees a real gun for the first time (and he will... at a friends house or find one abandoned by a gangbanger in the park), he'll pick it up, point it and pull the trigger -- unless he's had the safety rules, and knows what he's SUPPOSED to do.

To all my blue-line brothers and sisters at MDC, stay safe, come home to your families. 1*
dadinblue is offline  
#70 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 06:59 PM
 
Ambrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brainerd, MN, USA
Posts: 3,895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma_momma View Post
I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.


A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!

Bolding mine- and I will be the voice of dissent- but I don't think tasers are "fun". I think they are a horrible weapon- yes weapon- because they HAVE been known to kill and while police typically do get a 1-3 second taser on their body during training of them, they have most likely never been tased the full amount of time. Nor 3 times in a row by a taser happy cop that thought it was "fun" to see my husband twitching on the ground. And don't say DH should have deserved it. It was completely uncalled for. I think cops learning that guns are not to incapacitate but to kill is absolutely not cool. If someone holds a gun towards a cop the cop should shoot at the knee, thigh, arm. Anything but the chest or head. I have no faith in the American Police force and see no reason at all for them to carry guns or tasers.


Just my two cents- I'm a bit bitter as you can see and will likely not be posting back to this thread to save myself some UAVs.

GREAT MOM to dd (5) and )ds( [sept 26 2006]
Ambrose is offline  
#71 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 07:15 PM
 
sithlord_kev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
well ambrose,
what did your husband do so a cop had to taser him?
and secondly, before you go saying something about someone pointing a gun at a cop and he should just aim for leg or something you should think twice. a chest is a lot faster to point at in a moment like that. you say you have no faith in the american police force. just because you had a bad accurance with a cop (and we dont know why) doesnt mean they are all bad or dont do their job. i hope you have car trouble someday and no cell phone service, will you flag down a cop? or still be bitter.

good for you karma momma's husband. im glad you stood up
sithlord_kev is offline  
#72 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 07:32 PM
 
nextcommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchamama View Post
Solidiers and police have guns for the same reason, to enforce the will of the state, and those in control of the state. The question is really just weather a) you agree with the state's right to enforce anything or b) you agree with the existance of the state. Now for those of you who have loved ones who are cops/soldiers there is a whole complicated set of mechanism at play that we could debate. But I am cerytainly NOT going to tell my kids that cops have guns cause they are the good guys and to protect themsleves agaginst bad guys. First becasue it would be a lie, not even an oversiplification. When I was a kids I saw the cops put my dad over the hood of a car and club him for walking a picket line. As an activist trade unionist I see (and my kids see) cops routinely rough people up on picket lines. As an activist I have been ter gassed pepper sprayed and shot and hit at close range with a tear gas cannister (which I might add it is illegal to shoot at people) as a cyclist participating in critical mass I and my kids have seen cops run people of the road, use totally unnessasary pain compliance and pepper spray and arrest to intimidate cyclists. As a person with lots of poor but beligerant friends and family mambers I see the cops intimidate people, look for fights, and abuse their power every day.

Sooooo while this thread is not about the merits or demerits of cops and soldiers it is most certainly not true that the only reasons cops have guns is becuase they are protecting the good guys. They are most certainly protecting somebody, its a matter for debate how "good" those somebodies always are.

Also while I am sure being a cop is a highly unpleasant job at times, it is in fact not an especially dangerous one as jobs go. Dramatic sure, but cops don't have a particularily high workplace mortality rate. At least in canada the most dangerous industries are fishing and trapping, mining, quarrying and oil rigs, logging and forestry, and construction. So make sure that when you use products produced by these industries you tell your kids that workers die becasue the BAD capitalist don't care enough about workers to follow proper safety standards. : : But of course we don't prosecute in those cases, because well those bad guys are ummmm......different. They don't have guns........

Flame away!
So, if you were being threatened, or harrassed, or robbed.. you wouldn't call the police?
nextcommercial is offline  
#73 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 07:35 PM
 
nextcommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by karma_momma View Post
I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!
Thank you for all that you are doing. You are in my thoughts.
nextcommercial is offline  
#74 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 09:05 PM
 
MamaHippo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Police officers have guns to protect themselves and others.

My Dh is a police officer in a city with a serious crime and drug problem. Its not an area I like, and my husband is there every day. I don't particularly like guns, but it makes me feel so much safer and less worried to know that he has the ability to protect himself when some of the seriously disturbed people he arrests attack him. They have lost 2 officers in the last 6 months - one of them was sitting in his car at a stoplight and a guy came right up to the car and shot him through the window. People on drugs often commit crimes, and some drugs make the user unaffected by reason or by less violent means of takedown. I have heard tales of crack users and meth users attacking officers with knives and being tased, and not being affected in the least by tasing or mace or physical force. Dh had a case recently where the perpetrator was on cocaine, and he was attacking another person. THe cops came in and treid to wrestle the guy down, hit the guy 25 times in the legs with his nightstick, and finally had to tase him. Nothing even made a dent. This guy would have killed this other person if the police officers had not used 'violent' means. Luckily they were able to take him down without using guns, but it took 4 officers using all their capacities - and he only had his fists. What if this guy had a weapon and attacked the officers? We would have had another 4 dead cops and a violent person on the loose. Is that a worthwhile sacrifice?
If a person is coming at my husband bent on killing him for no other reason than the fact that he is a police officer, I am happy to know he's got a gun ( 2, in fact) on his person to save his own life. A lot of people dislike police officers, most of them because their opinion of cops has been formed by a bad egg or 2 in the bunch ( and there are bad eggs in every bunch, no matter if you're a cop or a priest or a doctor or whatever) or because they are criminals. Police officers do not shoot people for no reason. They shoot when they have no other alternative.


Please excuse the tone of this post, but this is something I feel very strongly about.
MamaHippo is offline  
#75 of 144 Old 06-20-2007, 09:25 PM
 
bigeyes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: hawaii
Posts: 7,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
So, if you were being threatened, or harrassed, or robbed.. you wouldn't call the police?
For me that would depend on whether or not I could keep enough distance to make a call! A friend of mine was severely beaten by a guy who was loaded on something, and she emptied an entire can of pepper spray in his face, with no effect whatsoever. It took several men to pull this guy off her, and then she was afraid to press charges because in that state your address became public record when you pressed charges. Nice to know the guy would know where to find her, huh?

I had a stalker once, and in response I took karate lessons twice a week, made sure my 2 chows were in the house with me when I wasn't walking them, and I kept a loaded gun nearby at all times. This guy came tp my home, my workplace, and many public places, he chased down friends screaming either that he hated me, or accusing them of being in my bed. Because he was a 'good time charlie' most of our mutual acquaintances looked the other way and pretended not to notice his behavior. A policeman friend advised me to get a restraining order, but he also told me it was only to establish a paper trail in case I prosecuted him. Everyone knows how much weight restraining orders carry in the real world.

I moved far away as soon as possible, and years later when I was in town for a wedding one of those friends updated me on his latest violent tendencies and apologized for her earlier denial. He escalated to the point where he no longer tried to hide his stalking and abuse as he had been able to before. Until you have been terrorized you really can't know how you might react, but rest assured that when you are in fear for your life you will be glad someone on your side has a gun, even if that someone is you.

It's sad that guns are a necessary evil, but I'm glad there are trained professionals who know how to use them, and they are the first people I'd call as long as I was able. If I am attacked and can't call, though, I will fight tooth and nail, and make a lot of noise, and if possible, injure them enough that I can get away to make that call. We live in a violent, crazy world, and it is really important that our kids know what to do if something happens to them. Yes, call the police, but if that isn't an option, make noise, defend yourself to your best ability, and given the opportunity, run like hell.

(A side note, I got rid of my gun when my oldest started to crawl, but not that the kids are a little older and we live in the middle of nowhere, I'm looking into buying another one. And yes, they will be taught gun safety, but the gun will still be locked up. In all the years that I had my gun, I NEVER pointed it at someone in anger, and I have a particularly bad temper. They are for protection, period.)

for intuitive readings click here :
bigeyes is offline  
#76 of 144 Old 06-22-2007, 12:51 AM
 
dadinblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrose View Post
If someone holds a gun towards a cop the cop should shoot at the knee, thigh, arm. Anything but the chest or head. I have no faith in the American Police force and see no reason at all for them to carry guns or tasers.

Just my two cents- I'm a bit bitter as you can see and will likely not be posting back to this thread to save myself some UAVs.

It's not that easy -- if the bad guy would stand still, not wave their arms or legs around then sure, I suppose I could hit their arm or leg to stop them from murdering a school full of children.

Try this: On the next breezy day, tie a helium balloon to a tree branch. If the wind is blowing hard enough to simulate a moving target, gather a handful of stones or pinecones or marbles or whatever. Now, stand 20' away. Heck, stand 10' away to make it easier. Now, one at a time, throw those objects at the balloon as it bobs and weaves and blows around in the wind. I dare say you wouldn't hit the baloon with any of the objects.

If you did, now imgaine that the baloon is throwing pinecones back at you, trying to hit you in the eye.

And remember that bullets are 1/20th the size of a pinecone.

So yeah, I'll keep practicing to stop gun-toting bad guys. If the bad guys suddenly all lay down their guns, I will too. Until that happens, I'll keep mine, praying that Vermont Tech or Columbine or Taber Alberta doesn't happen in my city.
dadinblue is offline  
#77 of 144 Old 06-22-2007, 03:28 AM
 
memz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In lala land....
Posts: 679
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrose View Post
Bolding mine- and I will be the voice of dissent- but I don't think tasers are "fun". I think they are a horrible weapon- yes weapon- because they HAVE been known to kill and while police typically do get a 1-3 second taser on their body during training of them, they have most likely never been tased the full amount of time. Nor 3 times in a row by a taser happy cop that thought it was "fun" to see my husband twitching on the ground. And don't say DH should have deserved it. It was completely uncalled for. I think cops learning that guns are not to incapacitate but to kill is absolutely not cool. If someone holds a gun towards a cop the cop should shoot at the knee, thigh, arm. Anything but the chest or head. I have no faith in the American Police force and see no reason at all for them to carry guns or tasers.


Just my two cents- I'm a bit bitter as you can see and will likely not be posting back to this thread to save myself some UAVs.
If a cop uses his gun it is has a last resort. That means that his life or the life of someone else is at risk. So if he has time to aim at the knee or arm then it means that the use of his gun was not the appropriate choice for the situation. When you shoot you shoot to stop the action RIGHT NOW and the quickest way to do that is to aim center mass.

Just my two cents

Memz, with mylove.gif and mommy  of babygirl.gif born 01/17/10 and 3 cat.gif familybed1.gifsaynovax.giffly-by-nursing1.gif

***4** *8***12***16***20***24***28***32***36**stork-boy.gif40

 

 

memz is offline  
#78 of 144 Old 06-22-2007, 01:06 PM
 
Twwly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bruce County, ON
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not all soldiers kill people. Peacekeepers carry weapons to protect themselves in areas of conflict while helping others, etc.

While I also would have removed the guns from the toys, I would have personally left them as soldiers and produced some other explanations for their weapons.

**Edit to add, this is the 'Big Furry Scotsman' speaking, not my wife.

Homebirthing, homeschooling AP, gardening maniac running a working farm. No circ, no vax, no cable TV. EC'd and CD'd, tandem BF'd.  Cheese and soap making goat and child herder.
Twwly is offline  
#79 of 144 Old 06-22-2007, 02:15 PM
 
papabliss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hello All,

Just a friendly reminder to keep this thread on track. Over the years, many gun-related threads exploded into a name-calling flamefest. It is easy to step over the MDC lines when it comes to passionate issues, so please consider what you are saying and how you say it in order to keep this thread active.

Thanks!
papabliss is offline  
#80 of 144 Old 06-24-2007, 06:11 PM
 
somasoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Syracuse by way of Baltimore going to Oregon
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why do police have guns?

Why, to threaten people who don't obey the law of course!!!!

That person could be a violent criminal or someone who chooses not to pay their taxes.
somasoul is offline  
#81 of 144 Old 06-24-2007, 06:33 PM
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrose View Post
I think cops learning that guns are not to incapacitate but to kill is absolutely not cool. If someone holds a gun towards a cop the cop should shoot at the knee, thigh, arm. Anything but the chest or head. I have no faith in the American Police force and see no reason at all for them to carry guns or tasers.
As a former police officer, I can say that this is absolutely ridiculous. Any time a LEO is in a situation where they feel the necessity to use deadly force it is unimaginably stressful. Fine motors skills are one of the first things to go in stressful situations, and the ability to aim and pull the trigger are fine motor skills. To expect a LEO to take the time to choose a non-lethal target, while hoping that whomever is trying to kill the LEO will suddenly decide that the pain of being shot in the leg is sufficient motivation to stop attempting to kill the LEO, is ridiculous.

When I was working there was a situation in which an intoxicated driver was pulled over by a LEO. The driver decided that he did not wanted to be arrested for what would have been a felony DUI and came out of his car shooting as soon as the vehicle stopped. He was shot in the body several times by the LEO (who was also shot in the thigh) and even as he was on the ground dying he continued to pull the trigger. In fact, the only reason he even fell to the ground was because one of the LEO's bullets struck him in the thigh and broke his leg. Somehow I don't think simply shooting him in the leg or arm would have stopped him.

Yes, there are "bad" or poor cops out there. Yes, sometimes cops use too much force. (Although very often the amount of force used is reasonable, it is just mis-portraited through the media, or the public simply doesn't understand what is reasonable and why it is reasonable.) That's wrong and it makes all cops look bad, unfortunately. But take a look from the perspective of a LEO--how would you like to go to your job every single day knowing that there are people out there who want to kill you just because of the uniform you are wearing? A LEO really can't ever truly relax--even off-duty you're still likely to see people whom you've arrested or otherwise had dealings with who would be perfectly happy to hurt you if they get a chance.
caedmyn is offline  
#82 of 144 Old 06-25-2007, 10:49 AM
 
ShadowMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PareMesAlt View Post
Police have a somewhat different purpose. Generally speaking they agree to uphold the law in a place where government control is taken for granted. One of the tools that our society has granted them is lethal weaponry.
I will have to disagree. Lethal weapons are not one of the "tools" police have at their disposal for ensuring compliance with the law. Lethal weapons are a way for them to protect themselves when, in the course of protecting other people or ensuring compliance with the law, someone decides to get violent.

Saying that lethal weaponry is one of the tools our society has granted them for this purpose is the same as saying that if you are shooting off fireworks, and you are not supposed to be, then the police have the right to come out and shoot you if you won't stop. That is really not the case.
ShadowMom is offline  
#83 of 144 Old 06-25-2007, 11:32 AM
 
rootzdawta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Squarely Outside of the Box
Posts: 3,551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchamama View Post
Solidiers and police have guns for the same reason, to enforce the will of the state, and those in control of the state. The question is really just weather a) you agree with the state's right to enforce anything or b) you agree with the existance of the state. Now for those of you who have loved ones who are cops/soldiers there is a whole complicated set of mechanism at play that we could debate. But I am cerytainly NOT going to tell my kids that cops have guns cause they are the good guys and to protect themsleves agaginst bad guys. First becasue it would be a lie, not even an oversiplification. When I was a kids I saw the cops put my dad over the hood of a car and club him for walking a picket line. As an activist trade unionist I see (and my kids see) cops routinely rough people up on picket lines. As an activist I have been ter gassed pepper sprayed and shot and hit at close range with a tear gas cannister (which I might add it is illegal to shoot at people) as a cyclist participating in critical mass I and my kids have seen cops run people of the road, use totally unnessasary pain compliance and pepper spray and arrest to intimidate cyclists. As a person with lots of poor but beligerant friends and family mambers I see the cops intimidate people, look for fights, and abuse their power every day.

Sooooo while this thread is not about the merits or demerits of cops and soldiers it is most certainly not true that the only reasons cops have guns is becuase they are protecting the good guys. They are most certainly protecting somebody, its a matter for debate how "good" those somebodies always are.

Also while I am sure being a cop is a highly unpleasant job at times, it is in fact not an especially dangerous one as jobs go. Dramatic sure, but cops don't have a particularily high workplace mortality rate. At least in canada the most dangerous industries are fishing and trapping, mining, quarrying and oil rigs, logging and forestry, and construction. So make sure that when you use products produced by these industries you tell your kids that workers die becasue the BAD capitalist don't care enough about workers to follow proper safety standards. : : But of course we don't prosecute in those cases, because well those bad guys are ummmm......different. They don't have guns........

Flame away!
I wholeheartedly agree.

Perspective is such a funny thing. Growing up where I grew up (a "rough) neighborhood, I never grew up with the idea that cops were there to protect me. I still don't have that idea. I knew that hanging on the corner with a bunch of friends was enough provocation to get bullied and harassed by cops. I lived just blocks from where cops shot a man 41 times in cold blood. I can't tell you how many times kids (teens) were shot for "pulling out a suspected weapon". Calling the cops is an absolute last resort when I am all out of options. I'm not saying all cops are terrible but it's a little warped to try to act like cops are the "good guys" all the time.

How to explain it to my child? There's violence in the world, like it or not. Cops have families too and in their line of work, they might come across someone who (whether in reality or not) is a threat. In order for that cop to come home to his daughter or son and wife, he has to protect himself which sometimes involves shooting his gun and sometimes involves somebody dying. I don't see what's wrong with telling children the truth without making it seem like cops are "always good" and whoever they may shoot is "always bad" because in my own personal experience, that's not accurate. In every profession, there's good ones and terrible ones. Let's pray that we only ever have to encounter the good ones.

Stay-at-home mom to 2 beautiful.busy.boisterous boys b. 08.17.05 & 12.29.08
Nirvana is . . . the living happiness of a soul which is conscious of itself and conscious of having found its own abode in the heart of the Eternal. --Gandhi
rootzdawta is offline  
#84 of 144 Old 06-29-2007, 12:19 PM
 
MonieMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I live just 5 houses away from a notoriously dangerous street. The police definitely have a bad rep in my city. Just thought I stumbled upon this thread at a convenient time...last night we went out for pizza and a large group of officers came in for dinner. My 3 yo DD grew rigid and asked quite loudly, "Mommy, are they here to kill us?" :
MonieMama is offline  
#85 of 144 Old 06-29-2007, 12:48 PM
 
ShadowMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchamama View Post
Also while I am sure being a cop is a highly unpleasant job at times, it is in fact not an especially dangerous one as jobs go. Dramatic sure, but cops don't have a particularily high workplace mortality rate.
Actually, it is a pretty dangerous job. They have a LOT of injuries - broken legs, black eyes, etc. Policemen are also at very high risk of suicide, presumably because of the things they see in their jobs.

I think it's really astonishing that someone would say that a person who has to walk up to people who are violent, and frequently armed, and want only to do them harm, and deal with them on a regular basis, that someone would say it is not a "dangerous" job. Perhaps it is not as dangerous as other occupations but that doesn't make it "not dangerous" by, really, any definition of the phrase.
ShadowMom is offline  
#86 of 144 Old 06-29-2007, 12:58 PM
 
turtlewomyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Looks like you have had a lot of replies, but since DH is a LE officer, thought I would reply.

Just like others have said, police have guns to protect themselves and others from people who would harm them. The police have very specific rules about when they can use the gun (i.e. only if someone is trying to kill them or someone else), and if a policeman breaks those rules he could get in trouble and lose his job. Most police officers would not want to ever have to fire their gun in the line of duty (they do have to practice with them to make sure they would be able to use them when necessary).
turtlewomyn is offline  
#87 of 144 Old 06-30-2007, 04:31 AM
 
dadinblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonieMama View Post
I live just 5 houses away from a notoriously dangerous street. The police definitely have a bad rep in my city. Just thought I stumbled upon this thread at a convenient time...last night we went out for pizza and a large group of officers came in for dinner. My 3 yo DD grew rigid and asked quite loudly, "Mommy, are they here to kill us?" :
And, pray tell, where would your impressionable three year old get such a warped view of the police? Television?:
dadinblue is offline  
#88 of 144 Old 06-30-2007, 04:42 AM
 
dadinblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by somasoul View Post
Why do police have guns?

Why, to threaten people who don't obey the law of course!!!!

That person could be a violent criminal or someone who chooses not to pay their taxes.
Ridiculous assertion, that a police officer carries a gun to threaten people. And then to mention taxes? When did someone get shot for non-payment of taxes?

As a trained officer, I can tell you that I do not pull my gun to wave it around in an intimidating manner, as if to encourage someone to obey the law.

If I have my gun out, it means that the situation warrants it -- I am in danger, my partner is in danger, the suspect is in danger or a member of the public is in danger -- and my job is to protect those lives.

Anti-police attitudes are so pervasive in this thread -- but few people seem willing to step up and explain why they feel that way, why their husband was tasered etc. They're just content to sit back and bash away at the police...

I wonder who they will call when their car is stolen by some meth-head. Or when they are in the 7-11 and a gunman walks in and takes hostages. Or when the next Son of Sam, Green River Killer, Charles Manson, or Jeffrey Dahmer starts stalking their neighbourhoods.
dadinblue is offline  
#89 of 144 Old 06-30-2007, 05:46 AM
 
dadinblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchamama View Post
Also while I am sure being a cop is a highly unpleasant job at times, it is in fact not an especially dangerous one as jobs go. Dramatic sure, but cops don't have a particularily high workplace mortality rate.
Go to http://odmp.org/browse.php and check out the dead cops. Browse a few of the pages that details how those cops died. Some you will find died by drowning or in a random car accident, but the VAST majority died while helping someone, while doing their job, while serving the public. Your intentional disrespect of their sacrifice speaks volumes as to your character. Andthat you are passing these sentiments on to your children? Great -- job security for me.

I've reread your saga of being tear-gassed at union marches and watching your father get arrested. I suspect that your father's experiences were quite a few years ago and that yours were likely linked to illegal activity, perhaps participating in a riot? Perhaps inciting violence or attempting to create anarchy? Blaming the police for their lawful actions that were in response to your unlawful actions doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't going to curry any favour. The vast majority of ordinary North Americans are not rabid unionists, and have no sympathy for them, or their tactics. Do a little research on the Anti Poverty Committee, their antics and public perception.

Quote:
At least in canada the most dangerous industries are fishing and trapping, mining, quarrying and oil rigs, logging and forestry, and construction.
That's only because the worker's compensation schemes either haven't caught up in those industries yet, or the workers are seen as expendable by all levels -- owners, the employees themselves and the consumers. If the employees in those industries used each and every safety mechanism available to them (like most policemen do...), there would be far fewer deaths.

Let's look at your examples of "workers [that] die becasue the BAD capitalist don't care enough about workers to follow proper safety standards." (as if the company owners should be there, holding the employee's hand each and every day...)

Fisherman: Everytime a fisherman dies, ask yourself if he had a lifejacket or exposure suit on like he was supposed to. Was he clipped on like he was supposed to be? No? How is that the fishing company's fault that the fisher cut corners and didn't do his own due-diligence? The company isn't a babysitter, can't FORCE anyone to save their own lives.

Trappers: I can't find ANY statistics to bear out your claim that this is a dangerous occupation. Please quote legitimate sources to prove this out.

Natural resources: Yes, dangerous work, which is why they get paid well for it, including hazard pay, northern living allowance, isolation allowance, all meals and tranportation to/from camps etc. No one is forced into working in this sector, yet they flock to the region year after year, and prove themselves willing to work cheaper, faster and more unsafely than the next guy. Is it any wonder that they die? It's akin to suicide -- they're CHOOSING to not avail themselves of safety measures. Every employee in BC and AB gets any training which MAY be applicable to their job, including first aid, rescue, toxic gas training and equipment etc. These industries also have dedicated first aid attendants and safety officers whose SOLE job it is is to ensure the safety of the employees. The only other job category to get such attention is construction.

Between 1991-1999, 93 miners died and 21,351 were injured (source: http://www.msha.gov/MSHAINFO/FactSheets/MSHAFCT2.HTM)

Contrast that with 148 police officers killed in 1991 alone http://odmp.org/year.php?year=1991
1992: 169
1993: 162
1994: 179
1995: 184
1996: 142
1997: 176
1998: 175
1999: 151

That's 1661 American police officers DEAD in the same time span that MSHA reports 93 miners died.

Construction: Again, if construction workers would use all of the safety mechanisms available to them, not one life would be lost. Each workplace accident can be traced to an employee's failure to obey simple safety rules.

I think these arguments you are throwing out there are just red herrings, meant to divert attention from the real issue.

According to http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/summa...ock/index.html this is what happened in America in 2004:

Every 23.1 seconds: One Violent Crime

Every 32.6 minutes: One Murder
Every 5.6 minutes: One Forcible Rape
Every 1.3 minutes: One Robbery
Every 36.9 seconds: One Aggravated Assault


Every 3.1 seconds: One Property Crime

Every 14.7 seconds: One Burglary
Every 4.5 seconds: One Larceny-theft
Every 25.5 seconds: One Motor Vehicle Theft

And who did the victims call for help?

Police are one of the few professions that actively seek out trouble and make it go away. Do you call a construction worker when your bike is stolen or when you get mugged? Do you call a fisherman when some druggie has set up shop on your front step or latin-american gangs are taking over your neighbourhood? www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/profiles/ms13/

Miners don't take on armed and dangerous gang members. Police do. Fisherman don't run towards an active-shooter in a mall, nor do construction workers or coal miners. Who does? The Police. Firemen put out fires, while someone has to catch the arsonist. Who? The police. EMS don't go in if it's even remotely unsafe, they wait for who? The police. Seeing a common thread here?


Quote:
Flame away!
Naw, it's not worth the effort. Flaming only gets people banned by the hypermods on MDC -- I'd sooner meet your disrespectful unionist and veiled-communist rhetoric with fact and figure and then watch it destruct under it's own impossibility.

This thread started out about why police officers have guns and many answers were fielded explaining why police officers are equipped with the tools to do their jobs. Several posters here have hijacked it with their own skewed viewpoints based on their own experiences, as valid as they may be and turned this thread into their own cop-bashing forum. This is regrettable, since these are obviously isolated incidents, and there are hundreds of thousands of police officers in the US, and hundreds of thousands more in Canada -- the vast majority of whom do their jobs with honour, integrity and service to their sworn community.
dadinblue is offline  
#90 of 144 Old 06-30-2007, 07:53 AM
 
rootzdawta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Squarely Outside of the Box
Posts: 3,551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadinblue View Post
Several posters here have hijacked it with their own skewed viewpoints based on their own experiences, as valid as they may be and turned this thread into their own cop-bashing forum. This is regrettable, since these are obviously isolated incidents . . .
Perspective is everything.

Just because a few people aren't lauding the cops and saying how great and heroic each and every cop is does not mean the forum has turned to cop-bashing. The idea that all cops are great and heroic is also a skewed viewpoint. I think very few people on this thread have condemned all cops. It's very much like teachers (which I am). When teachers are being criticized, I feel very hard-pressed to defend them but I also realize that there are some teachers out there doing much more harm than good and some people have very few experiences with outstanding teachers. What is wrong with acknowledging that?

And a few people have already said that because of their experience calling the cops is an absolute last resort, like in a life and death situation and hope to never have to do so.

Stay-at-home mom to 2 beautiful.busy.boisterous boys b. 08.17.05 & 12.29.08
Nirvana is . . . the living happiness of a soul which is conscious of itself and conscious of having found its own abode in the heart of the Eternal. --Gandhi
rootzdawta is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off