Protecting the Gift - Ch 1 & 2 discussion - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 43 Old 01-03-2009, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Welcome everyone!

For roughly the next three months, we're going to analyze and discuss the book Protecting the Gift by Gavin DeBecker as it applies to parenting our own children and the children in our lives.

I'm choosing to combine the first two chapters because, while the first chapter offers us good points to consider, it is mainly an introduction to the book.

Here are some starter questions to discuss. Please offer your own insights, questions, etc.

Ch 1:

Holly initally felt uncomfortable walking to her car. Why do you think she declined the ride from another mom?

DeBecker says that fear took over when Holly and the man got to her car. How did fear help her in this situation?

On page 16, he offers some startling facts about sexual abuse (when talking about denial). Are these a surprise to you? Do they change anything you had thought about sexual abuse and children?

Ch. 2

What are ways that intuition communicates with us? Can you share an example of a time your intuition told you something about protecting your children?

On p. 29, Jane asks "Your sitter is a good driver, right?" Do you think that anyone would have said "No, she isn't"? What do you think of the ways she used denial to soothe her feelings about the babysitter's driving?

At the bottom of p. 39, he asks a very interesting question: which is sillier: waiting a moment for the next elevator, or placing her child and herself into a soundproof steel chamber with someone she is afraid of? Are you able to look at situations like he does?

How do we deal with wanting to be polite to people, while honoring our intuition when we feel uncomfortable?

Obviously, there's a ton I didn't cover. Please share your thoughts from reading these chapers.

Here are the other threads:

ch 3 - http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1024016

ch 4- http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1028100

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#2 of 43 Old 01-03-2009, 04:35 PM
 
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Thanks for starting this thread.

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Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post

Ch 1:
Holly initally felt uncomfortable walking to her car. Why do you think she declined the ride from another mom?

She let her "civilized" brain overrule her "wild" brain. She risked her life, and her daughter's life, rather than inconvenience someone.

DeBecker says that fear took over when Holly and the man got to her car. How did fear help her in this situation?

It jump started her wild brain and re-kindled her primal survival instinct, especially with respect to protecting her daughter.

On page 16, he offers some startling facts about sexual abuse (when talking about denial). Are these a surprise to you? Do they change anything you had thought about sexual abuse and children?

I have heard some of these statistics, and I do know that the greatest danger to children is from people they are acquainted with, one way or the other. But the way he addresses denial is still useful. I think even people who are familiar with these stats allow themselves to be overwhelmed by the perception that you can't accurately identify a predator or anticipate --let alone predict-- your child being targeted.

Ch. 2

What are ways that intuition communicates with us? Can you share an example of a time your intuition told you something about protecting your children?

There have been a couple of times when I've lost sight of DD1 and I suddenly realize it after a minute or two, usually in the driveway when I'm loading or unloading DD2 or a boatload of stuff. And I totally allow my wild brain to take over. I have no problem screaming for her at the top of my lungs until I locate her. I don't wait a couple of minutes until there is a more obvious reason to start to panic. And I don't care what the neighbors think. I would rather risk a 101% of minor embarassment than the 0.01% chance that she could wander into the street and be hit by a car or the far less likely chance that she might snatched by a predator that happens to be in the area.

On p. 29, Jane asks "Your sitter is a good driver, right?" Do you think that anyone would have said "No, she isn't"? What do you think of the ways she used denial to soothe her feelings about the babysitter's driving?

I think there's a pretty good chance she would still rationalize letting her child ride with the babysitter. Her thought process already factored in the fact that she would be wearing a seat belt and that would somehow be enough to protect her despite the bad driving. And I think this kind of rationalization is pretty common for a couple of reasons. One, she probably doesn't want to risk appearing to judge her friend and the way she parents (by letting her children ride with the sitter). Two, it's more convenient.

At the bottom of p. 39, he asks a very interesting question: which is sillier: waiting a moment for the next elevator, or placing her child and herself into a soundproof steel chamber with someone she is afraid of? Are you able to look at situations like he does?

Sadly, sometimes it could depend upon whether I'm running late for something important. And every once in awhile I do second guess myself because I don't want to risk offending someone.

How do we deal with wanting to be polite to people, while honoring our intuition when we feel uncomfortable?

Especially since having my two DDs I was consciously becoming more prepared to gouge someone's eyeball, or knee them where it really counts. The same is true on a more subtle level when your antenna is twitching and you sense the potential for danger. You have to be willing to risk offending someone rather than risk putting yourself in harm's way.

Obviously, there's a ton I didn't cover. Please share your thoughts from reading these chapers.
~Cath
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#3 of 43 Old 01-03-2009, 05:30 PM
 
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Thanks for starting the discussion!

I read the first few chapters last week but things came to a halt immediately after reading the bit about following your intuition. I immediately tuned in to a situation that was bothering me (a health issue that was worse than I was accepting due to justifying and distracting myself out of) and by allowing myself to tune in to my intuition resulted in a hospital stay and ds having being diagnosed with a kidney condition. i'm sure it would have still played out that way, but I was tuned in much sooner.

So, yeah, not really in relation to the main focus of the book, but it came at an important time for me.

Back for further discussion once I get back on track!

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#4 of 43 Old 01-03-2009, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One line that really stands out to me in chaper two is that the words I know it are more valuable than the words I knew it. It's better to go with your intuition and risk being wrong or overreacting than to have to regret later that you didn't go with it.

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#5 of 43 Old 01-03-2009, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
What are ways that intuition communicates with us? Can you share an example of a time your intuition told you something about protecting your children?
At the beginning of the fall we were at the beeach for a fishing tournament. (I( did post abu this here on MDC afterwards as well so you may have read this already) Dd was rolling in the sand and I saw a man taking pictures of her. Anyone could have saud, :He wasn't taking pics of your child but rather the ocean or the view but I absolutely knew what he was doing. I felt it in my bones. I told DH to block his view and bring DD closer to him b/c I was brining DS to the bathroom. I glared at him and he took off.
However, even though in that moent I could have confronted him and screamed (I held back b/c of DS. I lost my nerve when it came to reporting it. I made myself feel question my feelings and told myhself nobody would beleive me and that DH would be upset if I made a scene. So my animal instict protected my DD but I couldn't take to the next level.
The original post is here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=981514

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#6 of 43 Old 01-04-2009, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dh pointed out to me that even though some of the things DeBecker says go against what we're taught by society, it totally makes sense when you think about it.

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#7 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 01:09 AM
 
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I read this book several years ago, but am glad to be going through it again.
I think learning to tune into my intuition more is the biggest challenge, though in many ways those ofus on MDC haveaheadstart -- we've already gone against society in many choices --we've followed our intutions to breastfeed, not circ., homeschool and many other thingsthat society dismisses, we just need to keep heeding that inner voice for the more sutble things like getting one elevators or what adults we let our children be with.
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#8 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 02:23 AM
 
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#9 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 02:34 AM
 
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I think the most important thing de Becker does in the first chapter or so of this book is to challenge parents to imagine scenarios where they listen to their intuition and act to protect their children, instead of being complacent and meek and not making waves.

That Holly and Kate story is so vivid. Perfect way to shock people out of complacency.
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#10 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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Ohhh. Glad I saw this. I'll be back.

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#11 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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I'm going to post what I highlighted and come back with thoughts to other posts.

Holly wanted to say "bug off", but didn't when talking to the guy that made her uncomfortable. I think that would have been a completely appropriate response!

Over and over again throughout the book, people say, I don't know why, but I don't like him/her/it whatever. I think this is so key. It doesn't matter why. The fact that it is on our radar is the important fact. Sometimes it's hard to remember that.

When Holly declines the ride, then changes her mind, then declines the ride again, it seems like she's still trying to talk herself into being normal. I think he points this out as rationalizing later in the book. If I had been in her shoes, and felt uncomfortable after our friends had left, I would have asked someone else to walk with me, called someone, taken a cab, anything but deny that voice once more.

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#12 of 43 Old 01-05-2009, 10:54 PM
 
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Listening to my intuition - I try to always be receptive to it and not make excuses when it goes off. We are trying to teach our DS this, too. And, that involves when we are out in public if he doesn't feel like talking to someone we don't make excuses for him (saying to the person "he's shy" or whatever), we don't force him to talk to them and we'll just smile and make small talk ourselves (unless we feel uncomfortable with the person and then we keep it short and curt - not rude but enough to let the person know we aren't in the mood to be talkative).

We've told DS just as Gavin says in the book - you learn more about strangers by talking to them - you give your intuition more information to formulate a decision.

I do not have a problem making someone feel uncomfortable if I feel they are up to no good. Sending out "vibes" that I'm being cautious and protective even if it comes across as rude seems to work pretty well. People tend to get the message pretty quickly. Do you guys know what I mean???
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#13 of 43 Old 01-07-2009, 02:13 AM
 
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I do not have a problem making someone feel uncomfortable if I feel they are up to no good. Sending out "vibes" that I'm being cautious and protective even if it comes across as rude seems to work pretty well. People tend to get the message pretty quickly. Do you guys know what I mean???

I'm the opposite of you. I'm always afraid I'm going to offend someone. Even if I *know* they are bad news.

I work at a hotel. Alone. I work all shifts, including midnights. At midnight, the surrounding businesses close and I'm like this little building lit up in the middle of nowhere. My guard is instantly up. In 2006, I was robbed. I *knew* he was up to no good. My body started trembling. I *knew* what was going to happen. I had the panick button in my hand (instead of on the wall where it was kept). I was ready to press it, because I *knew* I was going to need to. He said the magic words and I pressed the button. I could've kicked myself in the butt for not listenting to my intution.....but I didn't want to offend him. (This guy was caught and plead guilty....the guys (yes all men) who robbed the other 3 business after me have not been caught).

That doesn't mean I don't listen to my intuition. I refused service to another man a couple months later (locked doors, wouldn't let him in). He went down the block and robbed a different hotel.

I also get the drunks (or sober's, for that matter) who won't leave me alone. The ones who have to talk to you standing an inch away. I have to have my personal space. I get freaked out when people (men) get closer than shoulder length space to me. I've had countless guys trying to slobber all over me. They walk towards me, I back up. I put up my "I think you're a bad guy vibe and don't like you" and distance myself/act like a b*tch....but they don't get the message. Once they've ticked me off enough, I'll tear into them. But they have to really cross the line before I really start protecting myself. Why? It's all because I don't want to offend people (especially of a different race, for fear of being accused of being racist).


I've got to get this book. But until I do, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
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#14 of 43 Old 01-07-2009, 01:22 PM
 
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Thanks for this thread, I found this book fascinating when I read it earlier this year, I will pick it up again from the library so I can go more in depth with you folks.

Quote:
Holly initally felt uncomfortable walking to her car. Why do you think she declined the ride from another mom?
I think she didn't want to "give in" to her "silly" fears by taking a ride when she could so easily walk. I think that is a common reaction for a lot of people, not just to ignore intuition, but to actually go against it because you don't want to see yourself as silly or irrational.

Quote:
DeBecker says that fear took over when Holly and the man got to her car. How did fear help her in this situation?
It helped awaken her instinct to fight, without worrying about "should I do this or that" just bypassed her rational thought process all together.

Quote:
On page 16, he offers some startling facts about sexual abuse (when talking about denial). Are these a surprise to you? Do they change anything you had thought about sexual abuse and children?
I too knew to some extent these statistics, but I didn't know how large the people you know things was. I don't have kids yet, but it will definitely be a thought when I do and it is something I think about now with nieces/nephews/cousins.

Quote:
On p. 29, Jane asks "Your sitter is a good driver, right?" Do you think that anyone would have said "No, she isn't"? What do you think of the ways she used denial to soothe her feelings about the babysitter's driving
No, they aren't because either they are a good driver, a bad driver with mom in denial or a bad driver that is fired So maybe if you just broke through denial and decided to fire the sitter that day you might say no.

Quote:
At the bottom of p. 39, he asks a very interesting question: which is sillier: waiting a moment for the next elevator, or placing her child and herself into a soundproof steel chamber with someone she is afraid of? Are you able to look at situations like he does?
I definitely try to after reading the book. I don't worry too much about looking a little silly, but if I am in a hurry I might overlook an intuitive feeling. My biggest thing is making sure I am tuning into those feelings and being aware of my surroundings.

Quote:
How do we deal with wanting to be polite to people, while honoring our intuition when we feel uncomfortable?
I have no problem giving someone "the look" as I like to call it. Saying something I think I would have to work on as I am more reluctant to do that. Partially because I want to be polite, but partially because I don't want to make a scene.

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#15 of 43 Old 01-07-2009, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nice thoughts everyone. Anything else about the first two chapters that you thought was important?

I'm going to go ahead and start the thread for chapter 3 on Friday. I think we can get a lot out of that one.

So let's get chapter three read!

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#16 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 01:06 AM
 
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I do think I worry less about being polite when I am with my children. For instance, I would feel badly accepting a ride and putting someone out (like in the Holly anecdote), but probably not if my child were with me. And actually, I think my feminism taught me well before I had kids to put my safety before my fears of being polite, though this is still a challenge at times and something I have to do consciously.

In rereading this, I have thought of several everyday things I do to keep my kids safe that I know are noticed and looked down upon. These are regular things like waiting with him at the bus stop (he's only 5.5) while my neighbors don't, not leaving him in a preschool that he hated a couple years ago. These were not based on gut feelings of anything being wrong there, but just basic safety guidelines for me and doing what felt right. Maybe I'm off topic, but these examples struck me while rereading, just b/c I do think the idea is the same. This is what I hear: "It's harder on the moms." or "That's such a first time parent thing to do." or "Is he your first?" I just feel like my concern for my son's safety is being ridiculed.

The holly story (all of these stories are hard to read for me) just surprised me. I have never been in such a situation thankfully, and I just can't imagine having all those thoughts and not realizing what you are doing? I just hope if I were ever threatened with or without my child that I could be together and fierce as she was. Oh, and does anyone else worry that they won't recognize a gut feeling in an important situation? Honestly I think I have some anxiety (I know they're not realistic worries) and it does scare me (ha ha) that I won't be able to differentiate between my random thoughts and intuition. Which I guess is his point...but for me I'm not really talking about worries I think are realistic, but rather just an anxious mindset that is a struggle for me to overcome. It DID help me to read that a lot of moms worry excessively. Perhaps that is part of it for me and I am not so strange about it as I thought.

I have had a few situations recently just where someone made me uncomfortable, and b/c of this book and Gift of Fear, it prompted me afterwards to wonder why. It is so fascinating how we notice when we think we aren't. For instance, I felt funny not wanting to stop in an aisle b/c of a man dressed scruffy in WF, but I realized later it wasn't really what he looked like. It was that he was looking at baby food jars, but with no cart, no basket. I might stop in for a large or single item without a cart or bag, but baby food jars? He was looking around a lot, in a way that doesn't indicate shopping for food. That's just what came to me when I thought about it. And yeah, as I shopped longer he did indeed prove himself to be creepy. Perhaps not dangerous, but creepy.
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#17 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 07:07 PM
 
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I read this book a few years ago and re-read Chapters 1 and 2 for this discussion.

There is one thing that bothers me upon re-reading which I would like to bring up, and that is his focus on men as perpetrators of violence.

I think that with the way the book portrays things, you would get the impression that women hardly ever commit acts of violence, it's men.

I am not sure that I totally buy that. Women may commit violent acts less often, but there's a story in the news pretty much every day about a female doing something violent - killing a child, killing a spouse, etc. Part of this is probably overreporting because it's not as usual (possibly).

However, overall I have to say that I was a bit bothered by this tone of the book. While I do agree that obviously women seem to be targets more often than men, does that justify the harmful generalizations?

Did this bother anyone else? If not, where does it stop? Should we exclude men from being babysitters because of this stereotype? Are they automatically more suspect than women if someone is being sexually abused? And if so is this appropriate considering our goals of wanting dads to be more involved with their children?

Would like to hear some other thoughts on this.
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#18 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 07:34 PM
 
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It doesn't bother me at all. Statistically speaking, yes, men usually do commit violence. I think he address this well in Gift of Fear as well. This is worlds away to me from saying that most men commit violence, or that men are inherently bad, or that women don't. I'm not trying to be abrupt, it's just that I see negative stereotypes of women every day of my life, and yet when anything remotely negative about men comes up, people notice. That always bothers me. I have three sons, so it's not like I'm not invested in young boys having a healthy self-image. But I'm not going to deny facts either. I found his abruptness and honestly on this topic refreshing, and honestly it made me take him more seriously.
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#19 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 07:40 PM
 
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However, overall I have to say that I was a bit bothered by this tone of the book. While I do agree that obviously women seem to be targets more often than men, does that justify the harmful generalizations?

Did this bother anyone else? If not, where does it stop? Should we exclude men from being babysitters because of this stereotype? Are they automatically more suspect than women if someone is being sexually abused? And if so is this appropriate considering our goals of wanting dads to be more involved with their children?
Well, since you asked, I do feel that where my child's safety is concerned, it is OK to make generalizations based on statistics. I wouldn't have verbalized that before I read PTG, but I've been in too many situations where being PC about gender or race has put my own safety at risk - I'm not going to do that with my DD.

FTR, I didn't enroll my DD in a perfectly lovely preschool because there was a male teacher there. Totally not PC of me, but after reading PTG, I just felt more comfortable at the preschool with all women on staff. Re: your comment about wanting dads to be more involved, I think there's a huge difference between a dad being involved in his child's life, and a man choosing a profession based on its proximity to kids not his own. One has nothing to do with the other, IMO.

99% of honest trustworthy men will understand parents' fears and want kids to be safe. The ones I don't trust are the ones who "protest too much." The best thing I learned from PTG was to trust my instincts when DD and I are confronted by a creepy, too-friendly man, instead of just grinning and saying, "Oh, isn't it sweet how good he is with kids?"

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#20 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 07:46 PM
 
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I think the numbers of men and woman might be more even when it comes to violence committed in the heat of passion, but as far as predatory behavior, men prevail in huge numbers. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one female serial killer but a list of men as long as my arm, serial rapists, can anyone name a female serial rapist?

I think based on FBI profiling statistics heterosexual men are far more likely to be child molesters than any of the other demographics combined. So yes, since he includes child molestation as a form of violence in this book, then men are the most likely perps

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Feb. 4, 2003 – They come from all ethnic backgrounds. About 95 percent are males, 70 percent are white, and they're only about 15 years old when they start molesting children. Startlingly, molesters and victims are related in a third of the known cases.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=29484

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Men make up at least 90% of the world wide total of serial killers.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/s.../inf_stats.htm

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#21 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Did this bother anyone else? Not much.

Should we exclude men from being babysitters because of this stereotype? Generally speaking, being female is a requirement for the babysitters that we hire.

Are they automatically more suspect than women if someone is being sexually abused? Since they're far more likely to be the opnes doing it, I would say yes.

And if so is this appropriate considering our goals of wanting dads to be more involved with their children? That's a hard question to answer. For myself, I can say that I feel like I know my dh well enough to trust him implicitly with our children. I can't think of any other men that I know that well.

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#22 of 43 Old 01-09-2009, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here's the thread for ch. 3:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...4#post12954354

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#23 of 43 Old 01-10-2009, 03:13 PM
 
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Hey all. I just realized that this is better fitting in the Media/Books forum. So I'm going to move it over there.

Becky, partner to Teague, SAHM to Keagan (7yo), Jonah (2yo)
 

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#24 of 43 Old 01-10-2009, 07:05 PM
 
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Just found this thread via Phathi5's sig! So thanks! I just finished reading this book, and it was life changing.

I loved, loved how he talks about mothers instincts and that is a innate survival mechanism for our species. It has really helped me feel more "normal" for being so paranoid about the safety of my children and always being highly aware of potentially dangerous situations or people. I'm *supposed* to be like that, I'm not crazy!! So I've started honoring that part of my personality and being proud of my motherly instincts instead of being annoyed at myself for always being worried.

It also took me through a lot emotionally; in reading the book I re-lived several situations in which I regrettably did NOT listen when my instincts were screaming "danger!!" , and I put my kids in the care of some individuals who were definitely sketchy. I am so scared to think of what could have happened to my precious children, and it's hard to forgive myself. Never again!!
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#25 of 43 Old 01-12-2009, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Can this be moved to the Book Club forum with the other thread?

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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#26 of 43 Old 01-14-2009, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowMom View Post
I read this book a few years ago and re-read Chapters 1 and 2 for this discussion.

There is one thing that bothers me upon re-reading which I would like to bring up, and that is his focus on men as perpetrators of violence.

I think that with the way the book portrays things, you would get the impression that women hardly ever commit acts of violence, it's men.

I am not sure that I totally buy that. Women may commit violent acts less often, but there's a story in the news pretty much every day about a female doing something violent - killing a child, killing a spouse, etc. Part of this is probably overreporting because it's not as usual (possibly).

However, overall I have to say that I was a bit bothered by this tone of the book. While I do agree that obviously women seem to be targets more often than men, does that justify the harmful generalizations?

Did this bother anyone else? If not, where does it stop? Should we exclude men from being babysitters because of this stereotype? Are they automatically more suspect than women if someone is being sexually abused? And if so is this appropriate considering our goals of wanting dads to be more involved with their children?

Would like to hear some other thoughts on this.
I think one of the important points in the first chapter is that we do trust people all the time with our kids and that it's about intuition. I don't worry about my kid when leaving her with her father (beyond that she'll miss me). I don't do it to be PC in spite of some concerns that I'm minimizing. But I knew my partner for years before we had a child. There's already a lot of trust in that relationship. BUT I wouldn't hire a man for a babysitter (though I'd consider hiring a couple). I don't feel comfortable leaving my child with a man alone. However, provided that I was completely confident that nursery/preschool/daycare was set up so that my child would never be with a male caregiver alone, I wouldn't mind (and might actually like) having a male on staff.
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#27 of 43 Old 01-14-2009, 10:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowMom View Post
There is one thing that bothers me upon re-reading which I would like to bring up, and that is his focus on men as perpetrators of violence.

I think that with the way the book portrays things, you would get the impression that women hardly ever commit acts of violence, it's men.

When you look at his point of what is most likely to be a danger to your children, I think he is being very accurate. He has made his living by being outstanding in predicting risk. I wouldn't want him to water down his book to be PC. He is writing about where the most likely risk to our children is likely to be.

Additionally, the way he became so very good at assessing risk, is that he and his sister were frequently abused by their drug addicted mom.


However, overall I have to say that I was a bit bothered by this tone of the book. While I do agree that obviously women seem to be targets more often than men, does that justify the harmful generalizations?

Yes, given the topic and point of his book, and he isn't going by generalizations, he's going by statistics.

Did this bother anyone else? That it is true, yes, that he wrote the truth, no.
If not, where does it stop?
It stops where the defineable risk ends
Should we exclude men from being babysitters because of this stereotype? I will

Are they automatically more suspect than women if someone is being sexually abused? Statistically yes, it is more likely.
And if so is this appropriate considering our goals of wanting dads to be more involved with their children?
Not sure how this is exactly pertinent. A father has a vested interest in his children. Not that that is a be all end all, but I think it is a reason to encourage fathers to be all that they are able to contribute to the raising of their offspring. But that doesn't mean I want someone else's dad keeping my kids.
Sorry for being rather short with answers, but limited time.
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#28 of 43 Old 01-14-2009, 10:57 PM
 
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Moving you all to Book Clubs

Flowers, fairies, gardens, and rainbows-- Seasons of Joy: 10 weeks of crafts, handwork, painting, coloring, circle time, fairy tales, and more!
Check out the blog for family fun, homeschooling, books, simple living, and 6 fabulous children, including twin toddlers

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#29 of 43 Old 01-15-2009, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, AM.

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#30 of 43 Old 02-01-2009, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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