Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves - Chapter 3 - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 28 Old 03-06-2009, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here it is!

Dalila, mom to two boys, 7 and 5

490/2013

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#2 of 28 Old 03-07-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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Chapter 3 is about "Self-Expression". Adorts points out that while parents are good at letting children express "pleasing ways of self-expression" p.100, we tend to want to "stop the healthy flow of feelings" around "pain, anger, jealousy, loneliness, disappointment or grief" p.100.

Something I found interesting was on p. 106 regarding some men's handling of passionate expressions - that by staying "cool", "being indifferent and ignoring" these men "are more likely to be emotionally repressed than present" with their child. Of course this pattern of communication can be seen in people of all genders, but I always enjoy when it is pointed out that by doing nothing we are still doing something.

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#3 of 28 Old 03-08-2009, 04:44 PM
 
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I enjoyed the part about "Denial" p.108-115. My FIL always wants to pretend DD isn't really sad or hasn't actually hurt herself. It drives me crazy. Aldort writes about the language of denial, for example, "It's okay. You're fine." (p.109) As Aldort points out, "To a child who feels scared or hurt, something did happen, everything is not okay, and the experience is upsetting." (p.109)That made me laugh at loud. So true!
I also laughed at the scene where a child says, "Yuck I don't want it" and is met with "But it's yummy". lol, how many are guilty of that?!

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#4 of 28 Old 03-09-2009, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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On page 106, she makes the analogy that distracting a child from his feelings is like trying to make an adult feel better about their divorce by suggesting they go the movies. This really struck me, because I know I am constantly negating my son's feelings.
On the other hand, on page 114 Aldort writes that "Distracting a child fro emotions can also be one of the causes of later drug use, overuse of painkillers........"
Wow, that just seems like a bit of a stretch. She doesn't provide any references to back that claim up. I think with something that serious, you should not make the link unless their is evidence that this is so.

Dalila, mom to two boys, 7 and 5

490/2013

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#5 of 28 Old 03-10-2009, 05:25 PM
 
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On page 106, she makes the analogy that distracting a child from his feelings is like trying to make an adult feel better about their divorce by suggesting they go the movies. This really struck me, because I know I am constantly negating my son's feelings.
On the other hand, on page 114 Aldort writes that "Distracting a child fro emotions can also be one of the causes of later drug use, overuse of painkillers........"
Wow, that just seems like a bit of a stretch. She doesn't provide any references to back that claim up. I think with something that serious, you should not make the link unless their is evidence that this is so.
Yes, that's a stretch.
I do like the part on p.113 about letting children discover their own answers. Whenever my sister's kids want to do something (from meeting friends across town to vacationing in Spain) she asks them to present a plan. In this way they often come to their own conclusions of what makes sense and what is impossible to pull off. This avoids my sister having to say "But how in the world is that going to work?", which of course just puts kids on the defensive. Even if it's totally unrealistic, she lets them figure it out themselves.

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#6 of 28 Old 03-13-2009, 06:11 PM
 
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On p 152, Aldort talks about speaking "as the author of your emotions"- about getting away from "I feel" statements and stating what you "need" or what you "don't enjoy". I understand the idea, but feel (there's that work again!) I'm going to have to practice a lot to make it come out naturally. I was just getting to used saying what I "feel" as opposed to just getting upset (w/ DH), now I need to think even more before I say anything. My "S" needs to be 30 minutes long .

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#7 of 28 Old 03-23-2009, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Pg. 139 "Most rage reflects the need for freedom to self-govern."
I totally get this. Which means I really really have to work hard on the "raising ourselves" part because I am a control freak. I think if I come away with anything from this book it will be to be less controlling!

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#8 of 28 Old 03-25-2009, 06:57 PM
 
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I highlighted that too! I agree with you. This book has been great to make me realize all the work I need to do on me. I am really enjoying it.

Is anyone else still hanging in here with Green Mama and me?

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Is anyone else still hanging in here with Green Mama and me?
I'm reading this thread, just need to catch up on the reading of the book.

Chessa , mama to Silas T (6/06) , wife to Chad . Welcome August Emerson! 2/8/10
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#10 of 28 Old 03-25-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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No rush. This stuff takes a while to digest.

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#11 of 28 Old 04-04-2009, 08:21 PM
 
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Chapter 3 is about "Self-Expression". Adorts points out that while parents are good at letting children express "pleasing ways of self-expression" p.100, we tend to want to "stop the healthy flow of feelings" around "pain, anger, jealousy, loneliness, disappointment or grief" p.100.

Something I found interesting was on p. 106 regarding some men's handling of passionate expressions - that by staying "cool", "being indifferent and ignoring" these men "are more likely to be emotionally repressed than present" with their child. Of course this pattern of communication can be seen in people of all genders, but I always enjoy when it is pointed out that by doing nothing we are still doing something.
this has always bugged me so much about our society... how anger expressed certain ways is unacceptable. like, for example, slashing someones tired or keying their car is abusive and wrong...its hurtful...but if i wanted to scream and run like a banshee in public to let out my hurt and angry energy its not ok. i can't exactly do that in my house, either as i live in a condo and it would disturb my neighbors.

i must admit that i have too often made my dd's expression of anger not ok...esp if she is refusing to find a healthy outlet to let it out...ie. punch a pillow, 'toning' into a pillow (aka making sounds in it til she feels better), draw a picture, scream into a pillow, run...etc. but then again, i don't do this easily when i'm pissed...so she is picking up my way...i am working on this. i can be very reactive as well...probably because i was never taught by my parents to deal w/ my anger or disappointment very well. being nice is definitely more acceptable than not...
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#12 of 28 Old 04-06-2009, 12:35 AM
 
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can i join? i wasn't part of the first two chapter discussions, but i'm reading this now and would love to chat about it with other mamas.

robina. unschooling mama and midwifery student.  building my nest with my husband, our daughter (born at home 11/07), our son (home waterbirth 5/10), and our newest little girl (born at home 4/13)!

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#13 of 28 Old 04-06-2009, 08:15 AM
 
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Of course! It is on-going, so you can post at the chapters 1 and 2 too!
Welcome.

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#14 of 28 Old 04-08-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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I was at the playground yesterday when a child about 5 years old pushed DD's friend who's 2. The 5 year's old mom was trying to get the 5 year old to give a ball back to the 2 year old. The 5 year old's mom made the child say, "sorry" afterward.
What would Aldort suggest the mom do instead?
What would you say to a child who pushed your DC?
And what would you say to your DC about it?

I feel stumped about how to handle aggression in other people's kids.

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I was at the playground yesterday when a child about 5 years old pushed DD's friend who's 2. The 5 year's old mom was trying to get the 5 year old to give a ball back to the 2 year old. The 5 year old's mom made the child say, "sorry" afterward.
What would Aldort suggest the mom do instead?
What would you say to a child who pushed your DC?
And what would you say to your DC about it?

I feel stumped about how to handle aggression in other people's kids.
naomi would probably say to the dc who pushed "you pushed that child. you look angry. you sure wanted to play with that ball, didn't you. " say nothing about what the child 'should' say or anything about them being wrong. just validate their feelings and most likely they will soften. nothing about saying sorry to the other child... i am pretty sure naomi would just let the child go and apologize once the child was ready to...............or maybe the dc wouldn't.

as for the younger child, i guess say 'he/she pushed you. you look sad. you look scared. you wanted your ball...you missed your ball...' don't put blame on either child...just let it be and validate. maybe even repeat back what they say................... and trust children to do good. so often we look at kids as inheritly bad instead of good..................i truly believes, as naomi does too, that good always outweighs evil, so to speak. the dc will work it out...it may not be up to dear abby's or miss manners' standards of etiquette, but they always do........................and the more we model for them, the more they will grow into more and more loving, kind compassionate adults.

thats my 2 cents on naomi's teachings and from counseling sessions w/ her. its not easy to do this though..................as our unconditional parenting book group is discussing. its sooo easy to worry about what other parents/people think if we just stand back and trust our kids to work thru stuff...........on their own and together. do we really need to 'tame' them? they are not little robots or ducks we need to line up in a row. sometimes i feel like i'm living in the victorian era. people are so d*mn uptight and ridiculous...why can't people just let kids be kids................sorry, i'm having a rough day w/ my mother today as she is going against what i'm trying to be like w/ my kids...

naomi's tapes/cd's are very helpful too.............that one, toddlers: to tame or to trust. that is a GREAT one to listen to over and over in the car... it applies to bigger kids too, IMHO. i think naomi would agree.

now if a child was being harmed, of course, intervene to protect them.....and comfort them..........but never demand/force a child apologize or 'make it right' or give them some punishment for hurting another. or even koodos like 'oh that's great, you apologized.....or...i like the way you just hugged that dc after you took her ball" or any sort of reward/approval................just let it be. it will work itself out i truly believe. we worry so much about 'manners' and i think that is part of parenting problems in the public, at least............ i think kids will be kids.............they are self-is-h. not selfish, but self absorbed. they are in their own little worlds...........they don't mean harm.....they just want to play and have fun and experience. 5 yo's aren't thinking about a child being 2 yo. a 5yo could have their feelings hurt by a 2 yo who took their ball, too.

all this makes me want to move to a different planet. wanna come?
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#16 of 28 Old 04-11-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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Yes, I see we need to be the DCs' voices when they are little, thereby modeling what they can say themselves later. It was put it nicely at the UP thread in response to a similar query of mine - to be the lesson we want the teach (or something similar to that). I like that!

As for moving to another planet...moving is stressful and I have a nice garden here . Let's stay and make this planet work better.
Hope you day gets better doublyblessed.

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#17 of 28 Old 04-11-2009, 07:36 PM
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My notes from chapter 3:

A change of heart took place for me on page 123. IT was talking about separation and the need to cry, saying "when separation is unavoidable, then and only then, being unable to avoid separation, we give supporrtive attention to the childs fears and tears...validate/empower..."

I was able to apply this just to life in general, I don't need to unnecessarily cause hardships in my childs life. Unavoidable hardships will come up on their own. I can try to prevent them as much as possible - and in fact my problem solving skills will TEACH my child a lot - a lot about how they can make life good for them without making it worse for others, and how when things ARE in fact unchangeable they are capable of handing that disappointment. It call "clicked" for me here.

Pages 127-128 they get into how unsafe does not always require immediate ACTION... we do sometimes have the time to give information. We don't need to intervene unless the situation is actively dangerous. Gives the child the benefit of the doubt - the message that we think they are capable to make the right choice - a chance to keep themselves safe. We can always intervene to keep them safe if they do in fact end up in a life threatening situation - act first, information later - but this does not neeed to be our default response.

Page 152 addresses and issue I have been better with lately. I used to feel like a failure as a parent if I made a request and they didn't help. It's hard sometimes when they don't want to help out, especially when they helped make the mess. I get it though - they wanted to eat, just because they helped make messy dinner paltes (because they wanted to eat) doesn't mean they will want to help clean up. *I* am the one who wants them cleaned up, so while I can try to enlist their help, if they don't want to help that is okay. Most of the time, they do want to help though - more so when it's not "required" and the bonus to that is they are "doing it for the right reasons" when they do help.


Those are my notes for the chapter, going ot read through the other replies now...
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I enjoyed the part about "Denial" p.108-115. My FIL always wants to pretend DD isn't really sad or hasn't actually hurt herself. It drives me crazy. Aldort writes about the language of denial, for example, "It's okay. You're fine." (p.109) As Aldort points out, "To a child who feels scared or hurt, something did happen, everything is not okay, and the experience is upsetting." (p.109)That made me laugh at loud. So true!
I also laughed at the scene where a child says, "Yuck I don't want it" and is met with "But it's yummy". lol, how many are guilty of that?!
Yes, my FIL does this too! I usually wait for the child's reaction, and validate it. My FIL will cut it off before they can have a reaction and say "look, you cracked the side walk when you fell! oh no, who will pay for that?" I dont even want to get started on the amount of confusion that must create, though the kids do seem to think its funny... I don't think its helpful to be honest, though I wouldn't mind it if the child was given a chance to show they are okay first. I don't like telling a hurting child they are okay. how confusing!! they trust us so much, so when we say they arent hurt when they are they think something is wrong with them...

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On page 106, she makes the analogy that distracting a child from his feelings is like trying to make an adult feel better about their divorce by suggesting they go the movies. This really struck me, because I know I am constantly negating my son's feelings.
On the other hand, on page 114 Aldort writes that "Distracting a child fro emotions can also be one of the causes of later drug use, overuse of painkillers........"
Wow, that just seems like a bit of a stretch. She doesn't provide any references to back that claim up. I think with something that serious, you should not make the link unless their is evidence that this is so.
i agree, thats a stetch, i loved that analogy though!

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I was at the playground yesterday when a child about 5 years old pushed DD's friend who's 2. The 5 year's old mom was trying to get the 5 year old to give a ball back to the 2 year old. The 5 year old's mom made the child say, "sorry" afterward.
What would Aldort suggest the mom do instead?
What would you say to a child who pushed your DC?
And what would you say to your DC about it?

I feel stumped about how to handle aggression in other people's kids.
I would probably first make sure ht epushed child isn't hurt, then I would focus in on the other child as doubly suggested. I would ask how we could make ammends, and if the child wanted to. Then its up to them if they want to apologize. IMO apologies aren't worth anything if they aren't sincere, and I would want the child to be sincerely sorry they hurt someone, not sincerely sorry they may have to go home if they don't say that 5 letter word.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



I had a problem in my reading though, maybe someone can help. On page 152 Naomi gets into emotions/preferences without hurting...

She says DONT say:
"I feel like a slave in this house"
"I feel unappreciated"

but its okay to say
"I don't like cleaning up after dinner by myself, I would like to have some participation with it"
"I need your help, would you be willing to clear the table"


Okay, I see how one is better then the other when I write it out this way, but it's not okay to say how you feel? I don't mean in a blaming way (feel like slave) but I can't say that I totally grasp why it would be bad to say you don't feel unappreciate. I mean, if that's how you feel?? How is that different... I mean, you aren't saying "you don't appreciate me" and if the concern is a child would conclude that, then couldn't they also conclude "I'm not helpful" if you ask for help to clear the table?

set me straight please!
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#19 of 28 Old 04-14-2009, 12:04 PM
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I let go of something yesterday. I have dirt. I hate wet clothes. I let go yesterday, and its because of this book. It's because of "who would I be without this thought" its because I said "so what?" My backyard is mostly dirt not a lot of grass but I let my kids run around under the hose while I sprayed it - soaking their clothes, getting muddy. we went in the house and there was mudd on the floor where we stripped. the kids happily took a shower and wiping up the mudd only took a second, and I just changed my pants so my clothes werent wet, and guess what - it wasnt the big deal I always made it in my mind - and our connection is really strong my son was a "different kid" the rest of the day - in a good way! and this morning too!
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I let go of something yesterday. I have dirt. I hate wet clothes. I let go yesterday, and its because of this book. It's because of "who would I be without this thought" its because I said "so what?" My backyard is mostly dirt not a lot of grass but I let my kids run around under the hose while I sprayed it - soaking their clothes, getting muddy. we went in the house and there was mudd on the floor where we stripped. the kids happily took a shower and wiping up the mudd only took a second, and I just changed my pants so my clothes werent wet, and guess what - it wasnt the big deal I always made it in my mind - and our connection is really strong my son was a "different kid" the rest of the day - in a good way! and this morning too!
wooooooot! : that sounds like so much FUN!!! :

ironically enough, when we arrived home yesterday from picking my dd up from school, the sprinklers were on the golf course next to where we live...i said to her, hey, wanna go run thru the sprinklers w/ me?! she of course said yeah! i then chickened out since it is cold here the past few days...like in the 40's. but i said if it were warmer i would SO BE THERE!!! i'm going to make it a plan for when it gets warm. i'll have to see when the sprinklers are usually going off. i miss playing in mud. we don't have hose access here where we live nor would they want us muddying up our area here... (we live at a resort that is becoming less and less family-oriented and more and more foo-foo and fifi oriented...).

how FUN. must. find. mudhole.
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#21 of 28 Old 04-14-2009, 01:59 PM
 
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Yes, my FIL does this too! I usually wait for the child's reaction, and validate it. My FIL will cut it off before they can have a reaction and say "look, you cracked the side walk when you fell! oh no, who will pay for that?" I dont even want to get started on the amount of confusion that must create, though the kids do seem to think its funny... I don't think its helpful to be honest, though I wouldn't mind it if the child was given a chance to show they are okay first. I don't like telling a hurting child they are okay. how confusing!! they trust us so much, so when we say they arent hurt when they are they think something is wrong with them...



!
oh its so invalidating when we/others do this to dc...or even adults... (one of my ex's, my dd's father did this to me...) totally negating and invalidating my needs/feelings/experience.

i know of an unschooling mama near me who asked her son when he's upset emotionally from words someone has said, 'did that hurt you physically? did it hurt your body?' and he'll say 'well...no' and it'd be dropped. but i always thought, 'jeesh, but he WAS hurt by someone's words...he IS hurting from it...'. sigh! sad!

if my dc get hurt any which way, i'll say 'that hurt, huh?' and/or 'that was scary, huh?' and i'll comfort them, let them cry as much as they need to................i try to steer clear from saying 'its ok.............'. instead i might say 'mamas here......mamas got you...............i'm here................i love you.............i know................i know..................'

so...if i ask my dd if she'd help me w/ something and she says no...do i just drop it...........no pouting <grin> , no comments.................just keep on doing what i was doing??? maybe just say 'ok! maybe next time we can do this together...'
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#22 of 28 Old 04-14-2009, 04:17 PM
 
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I had a problem in my reading though, maybe someone can help. On page 152 Naomi gets into emotions/preferences without hurting...

She says DONT say:
"I feel like a slave in this house"
"I feel unappreciated"

but its okay to say
"I don't like cleaning up after dinner by myself, I would like to have some participation with it"
"I need your help, would you be willing to clear the table"


Okay, I see how one is better then the other when I write it out this way, but it's not okay to say how you feel? I don't mean in a blaming way (feel like slave) but I can't say that I totally grasp why it would be bad to say you don't feel unappreciate. I mean, if that's how you feel?? How is that different... I mean, you aren't saying "you don't appreciate me" and if the concern is a child would conclude that, then couldn't they also conclude "I'm not helpful" if you ask for help to clear the table?

set me straight please!
I found this difficult as well. But try this: Someone must do the "appreciating" so if you feel "UNappreciated", than someone didn't "appreciate" you; hence you are blaming someone.
I personally feel that the "I don't like cleaning up myself" statement also lays some blame and prefer, "I need some help" or "hey, can get some help please?"
I need a lot of practice here.

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#23 of 28 Old 04-14-2009, 08:22 PM
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see thats how I felt too foodmachine! like, if the first ons lay blame, then so did the first statement in the second group... tough... perhaps intent plays a role, perhaps our children can pick up on that intent when we dont say things perfectly.
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#24 of 28 Old 04-15-2009, 06:47 AM
 
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We are trying!
It is important to be present too and not just think about what to say the whole time. My friends' were discussing what to say instead of, "be careful" to their 2 year old walking on a low wall. He feel off the wall while they debated the subject.

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sometimes you have to act first, talk later, and then keep that solution on hand for the next time.

to a 2 year old you can say "its safer to walk carefully" or "how can you walk carefully so you dont fall" (give information or ask a question) thoough really, I think its okay to say "be careful"
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#26 of 28 Old 04-15-2009, 12:09 PM
 
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lately i ask my dd to tell me about how she's going to keep herself safe while riding her bike... it works so well and i can tell she feels so much better about herself and our relationship when i empower HER instead of tell her to be careful or do this or do that. if she forgets to say 'wear my helmet' then i will remind her lovingly 'what about your helmet...'?
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#27 of 28 Old 04-15-2009, 07:04 PM
 
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I like that asking questions bit, esp for older DCs.

wife to DH mama to DD14 Jan '08 and DS 6 Sept '10
and 2 rescued greyhounds
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#28 of 28 Old 04-15-2009, 07:32 PM
 
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Green momma, are you still with? keeta?

Just wondering whether we should wait or move on to Chapter 4?

wife to DH mama to DD14 Jan '08 and DS 6 Sept '10
and 2 rescued greyhounds
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