Unconditional Parenting Chapter 3: Too Much Control - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 69 Old 04-07-2009, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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This is when it starts to get good! Welcome to the Chapter 3 Discussion!
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#2 of 69 Old 04-08-2009, 12:39 AM
 
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yay, it's here! i still need to finish ch 2...but u know me...i'll be here tomorrow i'm sure...

boy was i a BEAR earlier this evening...between the heat (its gone from 40's to 70's and for me, its just too extreme for me temperature-wise) & my being tired and missing my zoloft dose last night i was just awful most of today w/ my dd...poor thing.

she shut the door to our condo and the key card was inside. i told her she hasn't been using her brain today and blah blah...i was AWFUL. in my book, it was certainly verbally/emotionally abusive. NOT OK. i know to so many moms they don't give this kind of attitude/talk a 2nd thought...it is normal for them. well its NOT OK for my family. oh i despise myself when i am like that... i will NOT skip my med again. i will try even harder to keep my cool. i have a short fuse and i'm working on it... thank god we live in a resort so it was easy to get a new key card...dd biked to the office and got one lickety split.

earlier dd was refusing to come to the car when it was time for her art class...she said its boring she didn't want to go to this 2nd week. i said the 1st class often is dull but this one should be fun. noooooo! she rode off on her bike. i found myself threatening and bribing...and guilt tripping. "if you do not get in this car RIGHT NOW you will be in BIG TROUBLE!!!" & "OH WELL, GUESS somebody won't be getting a piece of cake" (i was thinking i'd get her one from the store while at class... but hadn't mentioned it until then). AWFUL. downright awful. i just had to fess up here. i cried and told her i was so sorry...that i'm an absolute bear today and i know it. i told her she IS smart and that its probably allergies to pollen that is making us out of sorts too... but this grumpiness is surely ridiculous!!!

i bet ch 3 will be a great one for me to read......for days like these.......ugh. i will start anew tomorrow.

oh i better go, my dd is crying from a sad sponge bob episode. this one we are watching and the one where gary moves out and sponge bob misses him really gets us crying around here... lol

sorry for the ramble. i'm a wordy girl, indeed. i like words. i like to process 'out loud'. i figured i'd share this once i saw ch 3 is about 'too much control". (tail between legs) its just sooo good to be here, growing... : even if i do take 1 step back and 2 steps forward...at least i'm getting to where i want to be...
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#3 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 12:37 AM
 
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hi...where are you, mamas?!

lol right now my dd is doing aerobics to a dvd i have & my ds is bopping around too...its so darn cute.

ok. here is my question... i laid down for about an hour this afternoon (pollen allergies kicking in) and in that time my dd had.......................cracked open a dozen new extra large cage free eggs and poured them all down the drain... ...........and she'd mixed ovaltine w/ god knows what...all i know is all the ovaltine is gone..........the sewing basket was on my moms bed as she'd been searching for thread and needles for hanging the eggshells like they did at school..............there were paper towels all over the kitchen floor.............there were glasses full of water all ready to mix in the food coloring (thank god i HID them!!!)............organic toaster pastries were on the table eaten..........she'd gone outside to ride her bike and when i looked out i saw her helmet just sitting on the sidewalk over some chalk 'target' she made for it. :

so i called her in...................as i was waiting for her, i told myself, ok...KEEP YOUR COOL, sweet mama!!! BE LOVING even though you are highly ANNOYED and disappointed about the eggs being wasted and the mess made..............look at the whole point of her behavior................. : i know she did NOT mean to upset me...or to make a mess. in her eyes she was exploring and having fun... even though she knew it was sneaky in MY eyes...and that i'd told her we'd do the eggs once i got up...

ok. so i told her calmly and lovingly we need to talk...she said OK. i could tell she was relieved that i wasn't yelling at her............al hysterical like i can get...so i asked her what was up w/ all that stuff.........she told me what she was doing..........blah blah.................i told her i'd wished she'd waited, that she hadn't dumped the eggs down the drain and that i needed her to do a few things.......i said 1. pick up these paper towels.............2. pick up the sewing box and make sure there weren't any needles on grandma's bed.....3. wipe up the ovaltine spilled all over the counter.........4. etc. she 'complied'. i did not shame her. i did not yell. i did not cry. i just loved her and she and i were both cool. i also nicely reminded her that the rule is she needs to wear her helmet when on her bike. (what if she doesn't? if there is no punishment...........ie. taking away bike, riding privileges-PRIVILEGES!? what a nutty concept, anyway!.........................so i guess i just keep reminding her in a loving nice way to put it on when i 'catch' her w/out it, even though she is "six years old"??? she's still a baby...that's what i'm here for, right...to remind her, to GUIDE her aka teach...not to reprimand and make her not trust her own self...)

i started on ch. 3...its great so far. i can't wait to see what you all think about it...........and how its going in your own families...

so that's my report for today...i'd write a blog but i want my fellow UPing book club mama's to be able to see my input. otherwise its like i'm just talking to myself on a blog or to people who don't understand UPing...so thanks for reading my rambles! any feedback would be appreciated.

now if i can conquer this beast w/in when i'm feeling sick and/or really tired. i do not do well mood-wise and am so intolerant and lack patience w/ my dd when i feel that way...any ideas??? valerian??? lol
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#4 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 12:40 AM
 
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Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#5 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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OK. This quote was me:
"The dominant problem with parenting in our society isn't permissiveness, but the fear of permissiveness."
I have been a micromanager and only recently have been able to stop myself and just allow my ds to be (most of the time). I mean, control really is a black hole. Once you start, it creeps into every aspect of life. I think I've managed to pull back and decide that GD does not mean "permissive parenting" and be much less controlling in general. I still have problems leaving ds alone while he's at the table, but even there I'm doing pretty well now.
It was disturbing to see ds manifest several of the symptoms Kohn talks about in the book, particularly becoming resistant to requests.
It's SO hard to stop and think, "So what?" "So what if he runs in the house?" "So what if he's yelling outside?" "So what if it takes him 15 minutes to brush his teeth?"
I still have a long way to go but I'm getting there. It's so funny I'm like this with ds because I'm generally not a nag at all with other people.

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#6 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 12:05 PM
 
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i'm reallllly hoping kohn writes more about what we might do when something is happening and we need it to stop...we need.....cooperation... vs. compliance.

ie. i have to go somewhere in the car by a certain time and dd won't get in.

ie. dd didn't have shoes on outside while playing after class yesterday (kindergarten at waldorf school) and the new 1st grade teacher for the fall seems more focused on 'rules' and what the kids are either doing 'wrong' or 'right'...thus, punishments/rewards...even in a mild 'politely said' waldorfy way... so he says "M, where are your shoes?" and i just quickly said (cuz i don't mind if she is shoeless...BIG DEAL!!! in fact, those are the most memorable fun times for me...being barefoot or just in socks outside!!!) 'they are right there...'. that shut him up and fast. hee hee. reminder: i am the mom here. i wanted to say, i just want you people to TEACH and PROTECT t my dd...ya know??? and for petes sake, let her be an individual!!! there wasn't any broken glass around where she was...it was a paved area the kids play basketball in.......... another six yo boy came out after school minus shoes as well and the other teacher asked HIM where HIS shoes were...he said "i didn't bring any today...i forgot!". lol i almost bust out laughing...............i don't know if he overheard or saw my dd w/out shoes or that was just HIS thing.....funny 6 yo's!!!!!!!!! nevre know when its fact and when its fiction.

another thing that is tough sometimes on my ego is letting my dd just be in public...i know most people would judge me, thinking my dd is spoiled and let to do whatever she wishes...or that i'm neglectful by not intervening in the way they think i should...sigh. egos!

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Originally Posted by Materfamilias View Post
OK. This quote was me:
"The dominant problem with parenting in our society isn't permissiveness, but the fear of permissiveness."
I have been a micromanager and only recently have been able to stop myself and just allow my ds to be (most of the time). I mean, control really is a black hole. Once you start, it creeps into every aspect of life. I think I've managed to pull back and decide that GD does not mean "permissive parenting" and be much less controlling in general. I still have problems leaving ds alone while he's at the table, but even there I'm doing pretty well now.
It was disturbing to see ds manifest several of the symptoms Kohn talks about in the book, particularly becoming resistant to requests.
It's SO hard to stop and think, "So what?" "So what if he runs in the house?" "So what if he's yelling outside?" "So what if it takes him 15 minutes to brush his teeth?"
I still have a long way to go but I'm getting there. It's so funny I'm like this with ds because I'm generally not a nag at all with other people.
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#7 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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OH THAT WAS MY QUOTE FOR THE CHAPTER TOO! I HAVE IT DOGGY EARED!!

So much of my parenting has been done in fear of what others would think about me - that I can't be "permissive" and the author isnt suggesting we should be permissive, but just that we shouldn't let fear of being permissive dictate our parenting.

I also find that sometimes I catch myself being controlling when I didn't think I was. What I have been working on is looking at how I can be in control of my life without controlling other's. I have been working on the same with my own children. I see my children trying to control eachother (gee, wonder where they learned that from!... me) but I'm working on that and to them I say "we all need to find ways to control ourselves without controlling others" because you can be happy and in control of your own life, even if others aren't doing what you wish they would.

I do have a few things I have a hard time saying so what to... but Ive come a long way!
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#8 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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I have a question. What if another parent's "so what" affects your DC negatively?
Here's my example (based on DH's cousin): Your DS (3 years) is playing with your half-brother's DS (4 years). The 4 year old is shoving and bullying your DS continually, everytime you hang out. Your half brother and your dad believe boys need to "fight it out" and that you are weird for thinking your half-brother need do/say anything.

WWYD?

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#9 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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"The dominant problem with parenting in our society isn't permissiveness, but the fear of permissiveness."

Sorry, Kohn, but I WAY disagree w/ this statement! I see WAY WAY WAY more kids out and about who run wild, push each other/things, throw things at people, etc etc than I see "helicopter" parents. Perhaps it is b/c I am the mother of a pre-toddler, but my other mother friends of toddlers always agree w/ this. In fact, it wasnt even me, but my friend, who noticed this as she goes to more places w/ her dd who is older than mine. It always seems as though we end up having to protect our little kids from older kids who are doing inappropriate things and their parents are not even attempting to stop them. I am not talking about things like running or tossing a ball or jumping off of play structures. That is kids playing. But older kids who throw toys, push past little kids to get to things, swing into them, come in toddler play areas & splash water, etc etc etc. Many times, all a parent would have to do is to say that there are babies playing here. They cannot walk v well or defend themselves, we need to watch out for them. Thats it! But most do not! ARGH! As you can see, even though Im relaxed about a lot of kid things, I do have some of the mama bear in me

Im going to have to skim back over this chapter to comment further. It's been a while since I read the first half of the book. I've only been making my way slowly thru the second half as I've kinda lost interest, lol! Probably, I think, b/c I've had many many classes and trainings on this stuff.

We went to a play place this morning and I did not hear many "Good jobs" YAY! And almost all of the older kids played respectfully w/ v little adult interaction, so someone must be doing something right!

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#10 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodmachine View Post
I have a question. What if another parent's "so what" affects your DC negatively?
Here's my example (based on DH's cousin): Your DS (3 years) is playing with your half-brother's DS (4 years). The 4 year old is shoving and bullying your DS continually, everytime you hang out. Your half brother and your dad believe boys need to "fight it out" and that you are weird for thinking your half-brother need do/say anything.

WWYD?
I believe it is our job to protect our children when they are not old enough to protect themselves, so I would tell my nephew directly when he is not playing nicely. If your brother is not going to help when his son is hurting another child, it, unfortunately, becomes your job to watch the children b/c you dont want your son to get hurt. It would be different if they were, say, nine and ten and truly able to work things out themselves, but preschoolers need to be taught these skills; they are not born w/ them. You could tell the adults that you dont believe the kids need to "fight it out" but can be taught to "work it out together" & it will bring them closer

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#11 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we need to teach our children to be in control of their own lives without controlling those around them - so your child shouldnt "let" the other child be mean to them, and in cases where they are too young to assert themselves you can be assertive for them - this does not mean being a doormat or being aggressive in return. It's a learning opportunity though - and how you want your child to handle it is up to you, and that is what you will teach in that moment.

dogretro - This is said with respect to your experience, but sharing my own. I see kid whose parents do nothing to stop them - permissive, as well as parents who do nothing to stop them, but are really "traditional" with the discipline at home, and just don't have the skills in real life to work with their child so it LOOKS like they are being permissive, but they just don't want to spank in public or threaten it in public, and if thats the only skill they have they APPEAR to be permissive in public.

Just the same, I don't think what Kohn is suggesting is that parents BE permissive, but just that they don't parent in fear of OTHERS *thinking* they are permissive.
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#12 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 07:47 PM
 
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It always seems as though we end up having to protect our little kids from older kids who are doing inappropriate things and their parents are not even attempting to stop them. I am not talking about things like running or tossing a ball or jumping off of play structures. That is kids playing. But older kids who throw toys, push past little kids to get to things, swing into them, come in toddler play areas & splash water, etc etc etc. Many times, all a parent would have to do is to say that there are babies playing here. They cannot walk v well or defend themselves, we need to watch out for them. Thats it! But most do not! ARGH! As you can see, even though Im relaxed about a lot of kid things, I do have some of the mama bear in me
But even older kids who push past younger kids & splash water are playing & having fun. It's just that you have a younger child & you see that as potentially *hurtful* to your child (which it can be). I would hardly call it inappropriate. Older kids play differently than younger ones & it's our job to protect the younger ones when we feel they may be harmed.

I honestly understand where you are coming from b/c I was there just a few years ago. Now I have the older kids & while it may be looked as inappropriate by some, they run around, play tag & the furthest thing from their mind is watching out for little kids (despite my reminding them ). They're just playing. I'd just say have an open mind about this b/c you may find your children do the same things once they are older.

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#13 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 08:44 PM
 
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Thanks mamas! I knew I had the answer. I just couldn't formulate it. Yup, we need to be the voices our little ones don't have yet. I think the 4 year old needs some validation. He's obviously not getting any from his dad. I'll give the mom a few tips on how to handle her nephew and her half-brother, and if all else fails I'll recommend she hangs out with our side of the family instead.

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#14 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 10:33 PM
 
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me too! i really like that part of the book...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
OH THAT WAS MY QUOTE FOR THE CHAPTER TOO! I HAVE IT DOGGY EARED!!

So much of my parenting has been done in fear of what others would think about me - that I can't be "permissive" and the author isnt suggesting we should be permissive, but just that we shouldn't let fear of being permissive dictate our parenting.

!
i live in a resort. (some of us actually live here year round...we rent from owners or own them...my mom owns ours...) my mom told me today that my dd cannot write w/ chalk on the sidewalks out front anymore. i figured she'd be upset. there is a huge saga going on w/ the owners of this place & they are basically trying to drive out those of us living here...so she (my mom) is paranoid they will be on us for my dd writing on the sidewalks..................FOR PETES SAKE!!! i felt so bitter about so many people in this country today as i felt angry that they view it as an adults world.............not a childs world......or not even inclusive of how they feel and need to express themselves in the world.............or adults, for that matter. *I* love to write on sidewalks with colorful vibrant chalk!!! so i was bummed all day about this. i feel so restricted here. but we can't afford to go anywhere else right now. but isn't that ridiculous!!! i feel the same about not letting kids write/draw/paint on walls............................when my dd first painted our hallway wall w/ bright red/orange paint i actually felt so delighted about it! it was BEAUTIFUL. i saw it and looked at her surprised and said how beautiful it was and how i loved it..........but....that our landlord would NOT feel the same, unfortunately...but that i'd take pictures and videos of it because *I* loved it!!!!!!!! i feel so badly how restricted kids are. how repressed!!! (i'm really thinking hard about all this lately even moreso than i already have done for years...............)

today when i picked my dd up at school some of the kids were outside playing basketball, etc. my dd was once again only in her socks...hee hee! (freedom is a HUGE deal to me these days...and for her) & i could not believe HOW MANY TIMES i heard teachers and parents saying GOOD JOB! & WAY TO GO! & all that praising jazz.

i thought to myself, man, they must think me EXTREMELY uninterested in what these kids are doing (even though i was observing and interacting) because i for once was NOT woo-hooing or way-to-go'ing or any of that...one kid said something to me and i think i responded w/ a 'really...?!' but i was really doing good at not praising. it was damn hard not to!!! i'm sooo used to cheering on kids...w/ my vocal intonation & enthusiasm and facial expressions/bodily movements...i get celebratory and encouraging...what i thought was supportive and such...i realized most or all of those kids were thirsty (yet not quenched by any means) for more praise from the adults around them...& i really felt like other adults would see me as not caring or being fun or supportive. it was an odd 'outcast' feeling for me.

how else can i be encouraging and spirited w/out being bored and boring around kids...?! sigh. this is not easy! maybe alfie will get to this...or maybe i missed something??? i think i'm doing this right but again, i just feel awkward retraining myself. my dd's kindergarten teacher is good at keeping quiet and just letting the kids be...intervening only if someone is being hurt/got hurt..............but the one guy who used to be a sub and now is suddenly going to be the first grade teacher (this is a WALDORF school) and yet he's never taught school ever..just has his accredation...anyway, i think he is trying hard to impress all of us by his GOOD JOBbing and WAY TO GOing...& making sure my dd has her shoes on for petes sake. grrr.

sorry i'm in even MORE of a bummed out mood since my allergies are making me miserable and i just found out today my dd did NOT get into the free skool/sudbury-like magnet school by us........she is once again on a waiting list. (its a lottery) which is better than nothing but still...i was hopeful she'd get in for first grade next fall....................now i don't know WHAT i will do. i don't want her w/ this newly teaching man next year and there is something about him that concerns me...i thought before i liked him but now i am doubtful about his ability.........i just feel like our school has put the cart before the horse. maybe i'll unschool her til she gets into that other school. sigh. ok i'm done w/ my rant. but a lot of this has to do w/ support w/ UPing my dc. i am not sure that is going on at the waldorf school...............i'd think she'd get more UPing in a free skool-like learning environment....no "ONE" teacher (there are many), mixed ages...they are thought of as individuals vs. what grade they are in............and they are not graded. they meet the children at whatever level they are at in learning.........whether they are struggling or wanting to go further into something..............its just great. sigh...

is this how we are supposed to be, mostly silent, kind of doing our own thing yet are nearby when our dc are playing??? i'm feeling so awkward about this...........if a kid tells me they can ride their bike on their own now i want to say WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhoooo! and now i hold back. i just say RIGHT ON!!! or something to that effect. or not even that..........just........ 'really!!!' said w/ awe. or 'wow.' matter of factly. i am trying to stay away from approval/disapproval in whatever i say to kids...

boy this is not easy....................................yet it is so simple.
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#15 of 69 Old 04-09-2009, 10:59 PM
 
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i don't think alfie meant that statement as if we shoudl permit our dc to be harmed by others............i truly don't. he meant something altogether different when he wrote that...

as far as the dc being harmed issue, i have learned that kids are truly self-centered. not in a selfish negative way but they truly are in their own little fantasy worlds. we have to remind them continuously how to treat others...mainly to model for them... (and it breaks my heart every day when other parents/older kids do NOT model this for their dc...) so as much as 'rudeness' in dc's behaviors a lot of the time irks me and hurts my heart, i understand that they aren't always aware of their surroundings...they are just on their mission in doing whatever they are doing or going wherever they are going after/to. i honestly don't think they mean harm. i hate to admit that because i am often disappointed and embarassed by my dd's behavior (and she is 6.5yo!!!). just today she pushed her little friend (5yo) after their mixed age kindergarten class out of her way while playing basketball. i had also seen her push a boy (also 5...a BIG 5) & i think another kid...so when she pushed this girl and she fell DOWN and CRIED (and her father was there...ugh! even MORE humiliating!) i tried to have eye contact w/ my dd...i said M, why did you shove A out of the way...you pushed her down. she got hurt. she is crying. my dd just said 'she was in my way'. wow, i didn't know what to say...........................so i just said 'we don't push people out of our way...................' . i didn't want to shame her...didn't want her to feel i was disappointed in her or withdrawing my love or anything like that...nor did i want her to think its ok to treat others that way. i almost felt embarassed w/ my awkwardness w/ her because one part of me wanted to say 'wth was THAT!' and wanted to say 'we DO NOT push!!!' and 'go make it right! give her a hug!' i did suggest she give her a hug...she didn't want to...and at the same time i just wanted to let it go................................but i figured i needed to remind my dd that it isn't kind to push her friend.

a few minutes later my dd and her friend (who is also 6.5yo) were setting up orange cone things in a row.......................another boy, also 6.5 yo and (who can be violent/anti social) came and kicked one over on purpose.............at least it seemed like it...to hurt my dd's feelings. the more i ponder this though, he may just have kicked it just to...kick it. but usually he does these things to upset people.

anyway...my point is that i don't think dc mean to truly hurt/annoy other dc...esp younger ones...we can teach them manners and drill them all we want about watching out for little ones, etc. but well, i just don't think they are capable (at least not all dc) of truly watching every step they take, so to speak...............maybe once they are older, like 8, they can.............or at least they are able to do it better. or...the dc is walking on eggshells and is a nervous wreck growing up about making anyone upset w/ them.......thus, associating it w/ their whole self. i just read zanzans post after i typed this part out but i agree w/ her on this one...most kids are not going out of their way to be selfish, rude or hurtful. some kids definitely DO bully and hurt others just to do so...and those kids are the ones we need to protect our kids from the most because they often just don't let up and they can truly hurt other dc.......of course i'm not saying let our babies be trampled by bigger ones................i am a mother of a toddler.....my 6.5 yo dd was one once too.. i am also a fiercely protective mama bear... this is a tough one. its hard to see our dc get hurt by others.......i don't want to appear permissive of them getting hurt and working it out themselves (although often they surely do...........if not right away, after a while...) and i don't want to overly intervene either. i'd say in the case of bullying, continuous harm and when our babies are getting hit or trampled upon, then we need to move them, comfort them and keep them until they ARE safe. i also just read what supergluemommy posted about this and i agree, there should be a balance...how often i forget this...i thank you superglue, for this reminder....we don't have to be totally permissive and do nothing or hardly anything...and we don't have to be helicopter parents or aggressive or even visibly angry w/ other parents/kids when ours are being harmed. i once saw a mom so obviously enraged when her dd was being pushed aside or something...i can't remember, but her dd is very little for her age and mama bear came out in her...it was interesting though to see the facial expression was not held back. i thought UH OH!!!

boy this is a tough one. i just don't have any advice except to let kids be and if someone is being hurt then separate them and protect whomever was being hurt for a while...lovingly...

and i second that on maybe not having your kids around their relatives who are thinking its good to brawl. working it out is one thing.............but allowing dc to fight it out is another altogether...yikes! how scary.

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Originally Posted by dogretro View Post
"The dominant problem with parenting in our society isn't permissiveness, but the fear of permissiveness."

Sorry, Kohn, but I WAY disagree w/ this statement! I see WAY WAY WAY more kids out and about who run wild, push each other/things, throw things at people, etc etc than I see "helicopter" parents. Perhaps it is b/c I am the mother of a pre-toddler, but my other mother friends of toddlers always agree w/ this. In fact, it wasnt even me, but my friend, who noticed this as she goes to more places w/ her dd who is older than mine. It always seems as though we end up having to protect our little kids from older kids who are doing inappropriate things and their parents are not even attempting to stop them. I am not talking about things like running or tossing a ball or jumping off of play structures. That is kids playing. But older kids who throw toys, push past little kids to get to things, swing into them, come in toddler play areas & splash water, etc etc etc. Many times, all a parent would have to do is to say that there are babies playing here. They cannot walk v well or defend themselves, we need to watch out for them. Thats it! But most do not! ARGH! As you can see, even though Im relaxed about a lot of kid things, I do have some of the mama bear in me

Im going to have to skim back over this chapter to comment further. It's been a while since I read the first half of the book. I've only been making my way slowly thru the second half as I've kinda lost interest, lol! Probably, I think, b/c I've had many many classes and trainings on this stuff.

We went to a play place this morning and I did not hear many "Good jobs" YAY! And almost all of the older kids played respectfully w/ v little adult interaction, so someone must be doing something right!
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ps-have any of you ever heard of or lived a 'radical unschooling' life??? if not, check out www.unschoolingamerica.com and see dayna martin's family blog, info. for them it really works!!! they trust the universe and law of attraction...talk about permissiveness! they just...BE. and TRUST. they trust the universe and they trust their children.

there is a fine balance there too, though but i actually tried this for a while (it was tough living w/ my ex and coming from this place w/ my dd as i have shared...) and i think it is very close along the lines of UPing so that is why i'm bringing this into our discussion...........................

pss-are any of you unschooling your kids or plan to?
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I have only skimmed this thread as my pregnancy self is not co-operating with reading...but in regards to the lots of kids running wild comment..I have two thoughts on this, as at first i thought the same thing.

1) We dont know if the kids actually are "running wild". We dont know if these parents practice GD, and this is just an outburst or whatever and not a common occurance. Further, if we know its a common occurance I have to ask myself....is it affecting me? If its affecting me, why is it affecting me. Is it because society has taught me that kids need to be obedient and behave and be queit and not run around etc etc...If the only reason is because its annoying me (or some other superficial thing) than thats my problem - not the child who is "running wild". If the child is doing something to me, my child, my property etc...then thats a different story - and I would approach the parent. And go from there...

2) The other thing occured to me is that the fear of permissiveness might actually lead parents to letting their kids run wild for a variety of reasons.. a) they may have just switched from authoritative parenting to UP and are trying to find a balance - me judging them or their child isnt going to help. Me modeling GD will. b) Maybe the parents are super strict, and the child is rebelling against all the rules. We hear it all the time dont we..that parents who use conventional discipline have to resort to harsher and harsher punishments in order to get their kids to be coercive..in the attempt to get a hold of their kids so they wont be seen as permissive parents, they are actually causing the problem..

I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I can think...

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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i don't know WHAT has gotten into my dd but she just told me she was sorry and that she peed on the couch (GREAT...REALLLLL great!!!). i am VERY upset because when she was 4 she used to piss all over the carpet upstairs in the master bedroom where we coslept in our family bed w/ my ex... (before my ds) & on the couch there...& one time she even peed on my ex's side of the bed!!!

now its been 17 mos. since we left the ex and here she is doing it again.....................................she peed on my pillows a few months ago and now she's done it again. this is the most bizarre thing. it isn't cuz she has no control of her bladder. it isn't that. she was just recently in the bathtub and i KNOW she pees in there...

i don't know what is going on now. before i could easily put a finger on it that she was upset w/ me...afraid i'd yell at her more about her behaviors, etc. or i knew she was upset w/ my ex and i fighting...............but NOW..........i have NO IDEA why she just did that!!! i could just cry. i told her i'm angry and that i don't even want to read a story to her. i know this is wrong. but jeesh, the kid just pissed on our couch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is NOT an easy thing to clean. it soaked right thru into the cushion. great...like i don't already have enough to clean up around here. this place looks like a tornadoe swept thru it.........every day. i can't seem to conquer the clutter bug. and now.............................i need to deal with this. what is going on??????????? and no, i don't think its an infection. and no, i don't think anyone is molesting her................ i don't get it. we've been doing SO WELL relationally. so now what. i don't want to punish her but i feel mad. i suppose i can still LOVE her and BE with her and read our story, still and still be upset. ugh. this isn't easy. i just want to pull away like i already have started to by coming here. darnit!!!!!!!!!!!! i don't know WHAT she is trying to tell me w/ this one. this is a whopper.
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#19 of 69 Old 04-10-2009, 12:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
I have only skimmed this thread as my pregnancy self is not co-operating with reading...but in regards to the lots of kids running wild comment..I have two thoughts on this, as at first i thought the same thing.

1) We dont know if the kids actually are "running wild". We dont know if these parents practice GD, and this is just an outburst or whatever and not a common occurance. Further, if we know its a common occurance I have to ask myself....is it affecting me? If its affecting me, why is it affecting me. Is it because society has taught me that kids need to be obedient and behave and be queit and not run around etc etc...If the only reason is because its annoying me (or some other superficial thing) than thats my problem - not the child who is "running wild". If the child is doing something to me, my child, my property etc...then thats a different story - and I would approach the parent. And go from there...

2) The other thing occured to me is that the fear of permissiveness might actually lead parents to letting their kids run wild for a variety of reasons.. a) they may have just switched from authoritative parenting to UP and are trying to find a balance - me judging them or their child isnt going to help. Me modeling GD will. b) Maybe the parents are super strict, and the child is rebelling against all the rules. We hear it all the time dont we..that parents who use conventional discipline have to resort to harsher and harsher punishments in order to get their kids to be coercive..in the attempt to get a hold of their kids so they wont be seen as permissive parents, they are actually causing the problem..

I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I can think...
i forgot to mention this too. i agree, when my dd 'acts out' she is definitely mirroring our relationship. the parents are to blame more often than not i think.........most are far too authoritarian and punitive and also into that rewarding stuff. i think more of these parents exist than permissive ones............

but as far as dd peeing tonight on the couch goes....i'm blank. sigh. we will go talk about it. hopefully i'll get a straight true answer. its hard to know these days w/ 6 yo's......so much is made up!!!
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#20 of 69 Old 04-10-2009, 02:56 AM
 
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You all have made some v good points

For a little background, I have a degree in child development and used to work at a daycare. A LOT of the things kids do (kids being kids) does not phase me. And when something that is normal kid behaviour bothers me, I do ask myself if it is really "wrong" of them or if I'm just annoyed by it. Running, jumping, yelling, climbing, etc, that is stuff that I know if it bothers me, it is usually just me. Kohn gave great examples of kids doing "wrong" things like throwing a toy or splashing water *when no one else was around* and that it wasnt a big deal for the kids to be doing these things b/c there was no one around to be hurt. A kid running and playing tag who bumps into another kid and they both fall down, there is no need for correction from the parent, IMO. The kid is probably embarrassed and will pay more attention b/c they dont want it to happen again; it's self-correcting. Kids who are doing things over and over again, like deliberately pushing past much younger kids (not like a year younger, but several), throwing toys across crowded rooms, just stuff that is "wrong", it would be nice if a parent would at least say something to the kid.

It is impossible to know each family's situation, that is part of what is hard! I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I know that, as a foster parent, I would hate for someone to see me using WIC checks when my kids are in designer clothing to make judgments about me and how I spend my money. They wouldnt know that I had foster kids or that my mother buys almost all of dd's clothing. I do see parents who kind of "snap" in public b/c they are dealing w/ more than one child & at least one of them doesnt want to cooperate. I know it is hard for them, so I try to cut them some slack. IDK, I still think I see way more permissive parents vs controlling ones.

It is interesting that Kohn says that we feel it has to be one way or the other. This is so v true. Im glad that we are reading this book and showing people that there is more than black or white! Granted, my daughter doesnt have much opportunity to misbehave yet, but I love that I am establishing a relationship w/ her instead of a discipline plan I know a lot of it is personality, but she plays SO WELL on her own w/ out me running a commentary on what she is doing, or even actually playing w/ her. She is not constantly looking to me for affirmation, she is content to do her own thing w/ out interference. When she needs me, she comes to me (or cries out, lol). What we do flies in the face of current child/caregiver interaction advice, but it makes for such lovely time together

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#21 of 69 Old 04-10-2009, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the same educational background as you dogreto and a child with Autism with big sensory issues.

I have a lot to respond to this thread but no time right now
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I have only skimmed this thread as my pregnancy self is not co-operating with reading...but in regards to the lots of kids running wild comment..I have two thoughts on this, as at first i thought the same thing.

1) We dont know if the kids actually are "running wild". We dont know if these parents practice GD, and this is just an outburst or whatever and not a common occurance. Further, if we know its a common occurance I have to ask myself....is it affecting me? If its affecting me, why is it affecting me. Is it because society has taught me that kids need to be obedient and behave and be queit and not run around etc etc...If the only reason is because its annoying me (or some other superficial thing) than thats my problem - not the child who is "running wild". If the child is doing something to me, my child, my property etc...then thats a different story - and I would approach the parent. And go from there...

2) The other thing occured to me is that the fear of permissiveness might actually lead parents to letting their kids run wild for a variety of reasons.. a) they may have just switched from authoritative parenting to UP and are trying to find a balance - me judging them or their child isnt going to help. Me modeling GD will. b) Maybe the parents are super strict, and the child is rebelling against all the rules. We hear it all the time dont we..that parents who use conventional discipline have to resort to harsher and harsher punishments in order to get their kids to be coercive..in the attempt to get a hold of their kids so they wont be seen as permissive parents, they are actually causing the problem..

I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I can think...
Oh for the kids who "run wild" we don't know if they are from permissive parents or not. Parents who are violent with their children sometimes switch between permissive and authoritative, or they can't discipline in public because it would be taboo - they don't want to threaten those things either, and since the only skills they have are to hit, they look like they "do nothing" in public even though they do hit their children (like my ex-neighbors) just echoing what you are saying to be my same experience

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You all have made some v good points

For a little background, I have a degree in child development and used to work at a daycare. A LOT of the things kids do (kids being kids) does not phase me. And when something that is normal kid behaviour bothers me, I do ask myself if it is really "wrong" of them or if I'm just annoyed by it. Running, jumping, yelling, climbing, etc, that is stuff that I know if it bothers me, it is usually just me. Kohn gave great examples of kids doing "wrong" things like throwing a toy or splashing water *when no one else was around* and that it wasnt a big deal for the kids to be doing these things b/c there was no one around to be hurt. A kid running and playing tag who bumps into another kid and they both fall down, there is no need for correction from the parent, IMO. The kid is probably embarrassed and will pay more attention b/c they dont want it to happen again; it's self-correcting. Kids who are doing things over and over again, like deliberately pushing past much younger kids (not like a year younger, but several), throwing toys across crowded rooms, just stuff that is "wrong", it would be nice if a parent would at least say something to the kid.

It is impossible to know each family's situation, that is part of what is hard! I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I know that, as a foster parent, I would hate for someone to see me using WIC checks when my kids are in designer clothing to make judgments about me and how I spend my money. They wouldnt know that I had foster kids or that my mother buys almost all of dd's clothing. I do see parents who kind of "snap" in public b/c they are dealing w/ more than one child & at least one of them doesnt want to cooperate. I know it is hard for them, so I try to cut them some slack. IDK, I still think I see way more permissive parents vs controlling ones.

It is interesting that Kohn says that we feel it has to be one way or the other. This is so v true. Im glad that we are reading this book and showing people that there is more than black or white! Granted, my daughter doesnt have much opportunity to misbehave yet, but I love that I am establishing a relationship w/ her instead of a discipline plan I know a lot of it is personality, but she plays SO WELL on her own w/ out me running a commentary on what she is doing, or even actually playing w/ her. She is not constantly looking to me for affirmation, she is content to do her own thing w/ out interference. When she needs me, she comes to me (or cries out, lol). What we do flies in the face of current child/caregiver interaction advice, but it makes for such lovely time together
this is not about permissiveness in my opinion. The behavior can be caused by unmet needs, which are sometimes "more" in special needs children who are not diagnosed (I know many children who have obvious sensory issues that are never addressed, and the parents or onlookers think its a disciplinary problem) I think there is a difference between doing nothing (permissiveness) and what Kohn is recommending. I don't think he is saying to BE permissive, again, I think he is saying not to parent in FEAR OF appearing permissive. So that, a parent should not parent just so YOU dont think they are being permissive. They should parent their child with unconditional love, in away that their CHILD knows this, without regard to their neighbor thinking "oh she should at least xyz with/to her child". Now, *I* would say something to a child like that if it were my child - BUT I should say something to help them, not because you might be watching thinking I am permissive if I don't. And if I don't think I should say something, I shouldn't. And sometimes its not just about what others think but about our own fear of thinking we are being permissive. It's the "I have to do something TO my child" mentality (fear of permissiveness) - which is definitely more common then the "how can I work WITH my child" mentality. (what we fear would be permissive, but is in fact not permissive)

Permissiveness is a problem but not as much as fear of permissiveness is, and that is the message I got from Kohn. This in my experience is true. Perhaps in some places there are more permissive parents then not, but in my experience, and I've only lived in 3 states and there are 50 so I could be wrong, we more so see what poiyt described: parents who seem permissive in public, but are not at home - they just have no "in public" skills that wouldn't be taboo, so they do nothing. Matched with the parents who don't care if its taboo and will threaten/spank/otherwise punish their child in public. It leaves a very small remaining group, that may be grouped with the permissive parents, even though these are our "unconditional" parents who are working WITH their child.
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I also think kohn is saying not to fear others thinking you're permissive (that others are judging you and thinking "wow that kid is let run wild". I had some experience with this yesterday. Usually ds and I aren't out and about and going to restaurants but yesterday we were out with my om and stopped for pizza as we were hours from home. we sat at a table in the back with a bar that faces the wall behind us that had books and clippings about pizza along the walls and stools to sit there as well. of course ds was done eating before everyone else an wanted to check it out. now i was raised with the mind set of when in public you have to stay in your seat....so my mom gives ds a look like what are you doing?! but thankfully she follows my cues and doesn't stop or scold him and he just checked out the books and enjoyed the stools before joining us again not to go on and on but i have to admit that i had a moment of oh i should stop him from leaving the table and climbing up on that stool... and then i realized that i was worry what the people at the other side of the restaurant were thinking or even what my mom was thinking (which i know was" get back in your chair and eat).then i thought well what is he hurting? what kid doesn't think stools are neat and i even checked out the books on my way over otherwise it could have easily turned into demands of return to your seat and even physically bringing him back.anyways.....
i also liked the quote " look at what the the kids do after the adult leaves the room"pg52 as in the previous chapters he says we need to have our kids want to be kind, considerate..... people and not just doing what we tell them out of fear of a negative reprimand or for a reward. in a way leaving the room is like a short term view of when dc grows up. i also seems to me that perhaps we'll avoid the teenage rebellion as we've stayed connected with our dc -another benefit of UPing!
I also agree that " if a child is afraid of defying you to your face, he'll figure out a way to do it behind your back" i could give numerous examples of things my brothers and i did as children for just this reason.
i also relate to the next section of overeating,under enjoying and other costs of control. i don't want to blame my parents from the troubles of my life but what kohn says rings true.
anf finally i thought i'd share that a recent article in Instructor magazine (a mag my dh gets relating to teaching) was about how students aren't motivated by rewards or punishment and how teachers were trying to find other ways to make a lasting impression on their students. it was great to see such an article for once. on the down side the little box that stands out (iykwim) was about schools who pay students to go to school.
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#24 of 69 Old 04-10-2009, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with that mommabear! When I grew up a lot of what I "learned" went out the window... I had to learn it again FOR MYSELF. It set me back in life, and as a person, big time.
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I agree with that mommabear! When I grew up a lot of what I "learned" went out the window... I had to learn it again FOR MYSELF. It set me back in life, and as a person, big time.
ME TOO...ME. TOO..... sigh. i had such inconsistency from my mother growing up...and a few different 'fathers' that were also inconsistent. it was all black and white...there were no gray areas...so i'm all mixed up now as an adult. in many ways i still feel like a kid. one big kid. so i am trying my best to apply UPing to my own 'inner child' so to speak as well as w/ my dc...

when i blow up i think WHAT is WRONG w/ me??? (ME...note how i automatically berate my WHOLE self, not my behavior...?!) i then get so depressed as i'm so horribly remorseful for being a monster to my dd...

have you guys read the last page of ch 3? it sure sums it all up (ch 3 that is...), really helped me to have a much better conclusion on our discussion of permissiveness and control. exactly what many of you have said, about balance...how it isn't black or white...its about a gray area that is peaceful, respectful, loving and kind...guiding our dc (and ourselves!) towards evolving more and more into loving respectful confident people... i love how alfie said its all about getting to a place " empowerment rather than conformity", "respectful method"s vs. "coercive." B-I-N-G-O.

now to ACE this...and not "beat myself up" when i fall short (or my dd).........that is another work in progress...
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I don't think what Kohn is suggesting is that parents BE permissive, but just that they don't parent in fear of OTHERS *thinking* they are permissive.
I agree with the first part: Kohn isn't suggesting we be permissive, I don't think, but that we don't let the fear of it drive us the opposite direction.

I don't really care if other people think I'm permissive or not. I always worry that being permissive is going to turn my sweet kids into total brats that I don't want to be around when they're young, and that when they're older they'll be the kind of people who think the world owes them, who are all takers and never givers, KWIM? Not sure if I'm being clear.

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It is definitely hard to parent outside of your own house w/ out the fear that someone somewhere is judging you (b/c they are!). For instance, we were at a play place yesterday and there were some young school-aged kids there, too. They were playing "nicely" on the large climbing structure when, for some reason, they all began saying "butt crack" to each other! It was the funniest thing! They were not yelling it, just chanting it. Now, butt crack is far from the worst thing a kid could say, and *I* thought it was funny, but it could, of course, have been seen as inappropriate for them to be saying in front of little kids. I'm sure some parents were judging those kids' parents. Even I thought to myself at first, "Hmm, they really shouldnt be saying that in front of the little kids." But, then I was like, "Ehh, it's just 'butt crack', who cares?" One man's trash is another man's treasure, I suppose.

I loved what Kohn had to say about toys and playing. I think, as adults, we are so used to using tools and having everything for a purpose that we forget that the purpose of toys are for fun and imagination. I can't help but think that a lot of the "right" way of playing w/ toys is due to us having so many "educational" toys and electronic toys. There is a big difference between showing a kid how to use a new toy and constantly reminding them or dictating to them. I had a co-worker who was VERY controlling w/ her class and she would always insist that there was a right way to play w/ toys even though we were a play-based program. Cars were always cars; they could never fly thru the air or sail on the sea, stuff like that. It was pretty ridiculous. We are Waldorf-inspired (w/ some Montessori, too) when it comes to dd's toys, so she has plenty of open-ended objects that arent even necessarily toys, just fun things to fiddle with.

I cant wait for the next chapter ~ punishment as revenge, oooh!

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DD (4.25.08)  DD (4.23.10)  DD (10.13.12)

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#28 of 69 Old 04-11-2009, 02:20 AM
 
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After re-reading this chapter, and then another thread on this board - the whole toy thing made sense, but on a different level. I totally get/got that there is no right way to play with toys - but it occured to me that as parents we often think we need to be cosntantly entertaining/playing with our kids, when I dont think that needs to happen. I am by no means saying ignore your kids and never interact with them,. but I think its okay to let them play - even at young ages - and let them figure out *what* they want to do and *how* they want to do it.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#29 of 69 Old 04-11-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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sorry double post.
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#30 of 69 Old 04-11-2009, 03:33 PM
 
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great. i am SO STRESSED OUT RIGHT NOW, mamas...please give me some advice.........what would you do? what would alfie say??? sigh... i don't see how i can come to a middle ground w/ my mother. she is so conflicting w/ what she believes in re. raising children. she did it w/ me, went to extremes. now she's doing it w/ my dd.

i'm stressed out to the point of tears and physical discomfort. i am hyperventilating. my dd was being yelled at and talked to very sternly/authoritatively by my mother who was reactive like she normally is and getting all melodramatic about my dd's stomping as the neighbors below us were home she said, and blah blah. my dd increased her stomping...got louder and more frequent the more my mom insisted she stop and said it w/ a really mean tone/facial expression. my dd would not go outside to jump or ride her bike.......................she continued this 'fight' w/ my mother and i asked dd to come w/ me to the next bldg to put our laundry in the dryer. she wouldn't. its like she is a glutten for punishment. she did this w/ my ex too. it broke my heart as i tried to protect her emotionally so much. now i'm feeling the same feelings in my body........ick. it is soooo ICK. HOW am i supposed to get my dd to cooperate and stop stomping for the neighbors sake? (or maybe they couldn't have cared less................) i just don't know what to do anymore when my dd does things that other adults feel she needs to stop immediately.

my mom said fine then lets go downstairs so you can meet E and M and you can explain to them why you are stomping on the floor above their heads...................... i thought this VERY CRUEL and scary for my dd. i mean, there are other options here..............my mom could have sat down w/ my dd and played a game w/ her like they used to when my dd was visiting my mom here from our old place. now its like my dd is taken for granted and gets no quality grandma time. i can see why'd she act like this. my mom has said before that my dd 'plays us against each other' like she did w/ my ex and i. well that is b.s. cuz what i see now is my mom is not UPing like i strive to and its causing conflict. so i wind up protecting my dd......just like i did w/ my ex. i hate this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm so stressed out!

now my dd is doing it more and i can see the innocent scared baby girl in her as she does it..................just to annoy and upset my mom even more. i don't know what else to do. i guess i could do something w/ my dd. but now my ds wants me too...he's whiney and wants to nap now that my mom finally woke up. i have like no relief. i'm totally overwhelmed. i have a tension headache. great...........now my mom is really gonna freak out when she sees my dd sliding across the wood floor on the footstool thing. which is fine, it doesn't scratch the floor but i'm sure my mom will complain and freak about noise yet again. telling dd in the moment is not going to help her learn and to be empowered..................or to even get her to switch gears.

i'm the parent here. the sole parent. my mom is the grandparent. but we live together and my mom provides. so is she like the other parent in 'say', or am i the primary say in all this raising kids stuff? how can i compromise w/ her when she isn't UPing???!!! or do i just feel this way because SHE is the one who brings home the bacon so i can be w/ my dc and work on my self...i have lots to heal.

i'm going nuts here. i'm freaking out cuz it feels like it was w/ my ex. only 'he' is in my mothers body now..............now there is extreme tension betw my mom and i. this is awful.

now my mother is sitting inside of her bathroom/sink area instead of in the living room w/ my dd. i'm upstairs in the loft area as my son just went down for a nap.

i don't know how this is going to work...UPing at home living w/ another adult who is not UPing too and this world feels like.................like i'm on an alien planet...its insanity. can you tell i'm absolutely frazzled right now!? this kind of thing freaks me out!!! i don't know what to do.
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