The big HP and the Deathly Hallows thread! *Contains spoilers* - Page 15 - Mothering Forums

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#421 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:05 AM
 
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Oh, and Harry doesn't always do Side-Along Apparition. When they were taking turns watching the Ministry before they infiltrated it, Harry Apparated by himself. I'm guessing that most of the time, they all Apparated holding onto each other so that they wouldn't accidentally get separated.
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#422 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:12 AM
 
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When Fred Weasley died, I had to put the book down, because I was getting it sopping wet. Besides, I was crying too hard to read the words. 'Course I'm also about 4 months pregnant.....that might have something to do with it as well.

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#423 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:26 AM
 
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Oh, and Harry doesn't always do Side-Along Apparition. When they were taking turns watching the Ministry before they infiltrated it, Harry Apparated by himself. I'm guessing that most of the time, they all Apparated holding onto each other so that they wouldn't accidentally get separated.
You're right! So why doesn't he get tracked for Apparating without a license? Argh.
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#424 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:31 AM
 
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And it's definitely some sort of crazy magic to turn Harry from the Snape hater he was into Harry naming his son after Snape, calling him the bravest man he ever knew
I know it's lame, but that totally made me cry.
Actually, as I was reading the book, I kept crying. I kept thinking....this is it. You'll never have another brand new HP book to look forward to. Savor this. As much as I wanted to find out what happened, I also never wanted it to end.
I can't wait to re-read it, now that I can really take my time with it.
My DH is reading it now, and I look forward to him finishing, so we can talk about it. It's getting a little difficult having to keep completely mum about what happens.

I was a bit confused about something - - - did Tonks die as well?
I wasn't clear on that, I thought so, but wanted to ask here.

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#425 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:39 AM
 
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I was a bit confused about something - - - did Tonks die as well?
I wasn't clear on that, I thought so, but wanted to ask here.
Yes, Tonks died.
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#426 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You know, I'm starting to think of the Dark Forest as some kind of magical lost and found. You've got a flying car, a resurrection stone, all manner of dangerous creatures, and heaven knows what else. Let's hope Hogwarts never gets in trouble and needs to sell off some property, cause that forest could be quite a buy for someone with dark intentions and a little ambition.

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#427 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:42 AM
 
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I have only skimmed the thread and will continue... but I had to say

:
Go Molly! Go Molly!Go Molly!Go Molly!
Do NOT piss off the Mama Bear!

:

That scene had me shouting out loud.
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#428 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:55 AM
 
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I loved the death and resurrection imagery in this book. I almost wonder if one of the reasons she didn't have Harry completely die was so she wouldn't tick off Christians by making him too much of a Christ figure? Just a thought.

Maybe -- I also think he didn't totally die, and she made that clear by what Dumbledore said about the blood mixing thing making it impossible to kill him (although I admit that is the hardest part for me to follow). Rather, I think she was demonstrating Jesus' "no greater love" idea that humans can aspire to (as opposed to being resurrected from the total dead like Christ)-- a person can have no greater love than to lay down his/her life for his/her friends...
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#429 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 11:59 AM
 
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I just realized that this explains why Dumbledore was able to beat Grendelwald against the Elder wand-- because Grendelwald stole it, and did not win it rightfully from Gregorovitch.
You know, I kind of wondered about that. Could DD be the rightful owner, when the man from whom he won it did not own it fair and square in the first place?

OTOH, what are the rules of winning a wand? The kids in school didn't win each other's wands when they were practicing Expelliarmus in the dueling club, or in the DA. Does the magic surrounding wand rules recognize such distinctions? Apparently so. So is it possible that it could recognize wands won through deceit/stealth rather than through force? Further, Grindelvald Stunned Gregorovich when he stole the wand: might that have qualified as stealing the wand through force? Grindelvald *did* go on to be an incredibly powerful wizard. I do think it's implied that the Elder Wand was the key to his success. I don't think that his use of the Elder Wand would mean that DD could not defeat him. That wand passed hands many times over the centuries, every time it's current master is defeated presumably through some mistake of that master rather than a failing of the power of the wand. Perhaps theft didn't work for Voldemort because he didn't steal it from Harry, he stole it from Dumbledore, and there was no force involved at all.

I don't have any books other than DH in front of me. But, didn't someone use Expelliarmus in the Shrieking Shack in PoA? Why didn't Voldemort's wand become Harry's after he used it against him in GoF?
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#430 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:01 PM
 
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I just realized that this explains why Dumbledore was able to beat Grendelwald against the Elder wand-- because Grendelwald stole it, and did not win it rightfully from Gregorovitch.
Ok- quoting myself... lame, I know

Now I'm confused... wouldn't this mean that Dumbledore couldn't use the wand properly either?? Why could Dumbledore use the wand when he won it from Grendelwald who STOLE it from Gregorovitch?

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#431 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:06 PM
 
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Maybe -- I also think he didn't totally die, and she made that clear by what Dumbledore said about the blood mixing thing making it impossible to kill him (although I admit that is the hardest part for me to follow).
I think she implied that Voldemort was kind of like Harry's accidental Horcrux, just like Harry was Voldemort's accidental Horcrux. So Harry could never be entirely dead while Voldemort lived, thanks to Voldemort's arrogant mistakes. Makes sense with Voldemort's description of the years when he was not-quite-dead. He didn't have a body, he was kind of in limbo, in a waiting place waiting to be resurrected.

Interesting, though, that Dumbledore would have access to Harry's waiting place. I find that more unbelievable within the context that JKR set up, than that Harry would be in that waiting place and have a choice of which way to go.
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#432 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:07 PM
 
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You know, I kind of wondered about that. Could DD be the rightful owner, when the man from whom he won it did not own it fair and square in the first place?
I just posted the same question...

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OTOH, what are the rules of winning a wand? The kids in school didn't win each other's wands when they were practicing Expelliarmus in the dueling club, or in the DA.
I don't think this matters because they weren't winning other people's wands and then attempting to USE those wands. It shouldn't affect the Expelliarmus spell at all. The issue is whether the wand will obey its new master in the future or not... I actually liked this a lot because it always seemed odd that each wand "picks" its wizard but then they seemed to be able to use other's wands whenever they wanted to...


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That wand passed hands many times over the centuries, every time it's current master is defeated presumably through some mistake of that master rather than a failing of the power of the wand. Perhaps theft didn't work for Voldemort because he didn't steal it from Harry, he stole it from Dumbledore, and there was no force involved at all.
This makes sense to me... after all, when I reread the Malfoy scene, it looks like Harry physically snatches Draco's wand from him, not winning it in a duel/battle (is that right??)... if so, then how is that different from Grendelwald stealing it from Gregorovitch? Seems the same thing to me, whereas Voldemort took the wand from DD after he was dead and after Draco had already taken it first. Well, it makes sense to me and I'm satisfied with it (again, suspension of disbelief is ok with me! ).

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#433 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:09 PM
 
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The cheesy part I didn't like so much was the final duel -- I thought the dialogue there suffered a bit. The epilogue was cheesy but appropriately so. I really thought Hermione or Ron would die-- I was pleasantly surprised that they made it. I think the dragging on in the forest was appropriate also, to show just how hard everything was. I also liked the analogizing to fascism, etc., which is something I hope that will be pointed out to kids reading the book who might not make that connection. On the Potterwatch show in particular they made indirect reference to the "First they came for..." poem.

As for Snape, I thought he would have to be redeemed in the end, or the theme of her books would be undermined. I disagree that only his love for Lily kept him going -- I think he loved Dumbledore too, as much as Harry did.

And I would also like to see a Hogwarts history some day -- I think it's the only tag on book that would do the series justice. Anything else I think would mar Rowling's creative integrity in limiting the story to the seven books the way she did it.
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#434 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:09 PM
 
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Ok- quoting myself... lame, I know

Now I'm confused... wouldn't this mean that Dumbledore couldn't use the wand properly either?? Why could Dumbledore use the wand when he won it from Grendelwald who STOLE it from Gregorovitch?
See, that's what I mean about I don't think the rules are so cut and dried. I do think that Grindelvald was the rightful owner at the time, perhaps because of the Stunning, or perhaps because of some circumstance in the manner of his stealing it. I think Voldemort was not the rightful owner in his turn for one of two reasons, or maybe both: that there was no force in his theft (DD was in no position to oppose him), and because he wasn't stealing it from the rightful owner at the time.
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#435 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:11 PM
 
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On the Potterwatch show in particular they made indirect reference to the "First they came for..." poem.
I thought of this poem, too, in the discussion of why Tonks came to fight. They'd already killed her father for being Muggle-born. Would they come for her next, for being half-Muggle? Then for Teddy for being quarter-Muggle? It wasn't a question of "being part of the action" vs. staying home with your baby. It was a question of protecting your child by fighting for him, vs. going into hiding with him and possibly leaving him to be a refugee for the rest of his life.
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#436 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:14 PM
 
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I thought of this poem, too, in the discussion of why Tonks came to fight. They'd already killed her father for being Muggle-born. Would they come for her next, for being half-Muggle? Then for Teddy for being quarter-Muggle? It wasn't a question of "being part of the action" vs. staying home with your baby. It was a question of protecting your child by fighting for him, vs. going into hiding with him and possibly leaving him to be a refuge for the rest of his life.

I agree, and she was an auror, which would make her the equivalent of an elite special forces soldier.

Only on mothering though would you have a discussion of the EBM she may have left behind... Somehow I don't think that will come up on mugglenet or wherever.
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#437 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:19 PM
 
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Maybe -- I also think he didn't totally die, and she made that clear by what Dumbledore said about the blood mixing thing making it impossible to kill him (although I admit that is the hardest part for me to follow). Rather, I think she was demonstrating Jesus' "no greater love" idea that humans can aspire to (as opposed to being resurrected from the total dead like Christ)-- a person can have no greater love than to lay down his/her life for his/her friends...
This idea is not solely christian. It is part of just about every religion in the world.
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#438 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:24 PM
 
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This idea is not solely christian. It is part of just about every religion in the world.
Never thought that it was -- the original comment was about Christian reaction to Harry's coming back, so that was the context, and Rowling has said she is a Christian and part of the Church of Scotland, so in terms of grand themes she probably takes them more from that than from other religions, but obviously good vs evil and sacrifice for others is a universal thing.
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#439 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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As for Snape, I thought he would have to be redeemed in the end, or the theme of her books would be undermined. I disagree that only his love for Lily kept him going -- I think he loved Dumbledore too, as much as Harry did.
Yes - I totally agree with this. All those years with Dumbledore DID change Snape, I think. He was still very conflicted (and not wholly good), but there was more to him than just 'Death Eater' or 'Loving Lily'.
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#440 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:30 PM
 
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BTW, where's the theme park going to be?

I have to admit, I'm loath to watch the movies (I haven't seen 5 yet) for some time. I wasn't all that thrilled with 4 and I think only 3 did the series justice (even though it changed some things). I hope the theme park isn't just movie based, although apparently Rowling has a hand in how it's going to be, or at least she implied as much on Blue Peter (so nicely YouTubed to mugglenet)

I wish we had Blue Peter in America.:
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#441 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:37 PM
 
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But I get the desire to know more details about the lives of beloved characters. I just don't want to read about it in Deathly Hallows right after an excruciating battle. There is nothing left but the sadness of the burials and the little ways and things that people need to heal and crawl their way back to normalcy. I don't want to be expositioned through it. I agree with a PP, I don't want a cheesy 80s movie character explanantion either. I don't want to be dropped into the middle of a baby blessing or wedding a short time later with everyone chit-chatting about what so-and-so is up to now. What does it matter really what jobs everyone went on to do, in the big picture. It is of interest, but not vital to the story arc. I think we can all assume that George was never really the same again without Fred, but that he did carry on and find happiness. It's the small day-to-day moments, gatherings with friends and families, falling in love, the laughter of your babies -- I'm sure we are all imagining these things for these beloved characters, especially after making it through all the heartache and fear that this war wrought. And I don't need to see it in print to make it real for me. If it were in print, then it couldn't be too wonderful, could it? Because then it wouldn't be realistic. I wouldn't want to read a scene where George was just fine because then that would lessen his connection to Fred, and I wouldn't want to read about his pain, because I already know that it's there.

I think she ended the best way she could have. With the end. Voldemort died. This truth, this feat needed to resonate on it's own, with nothing extra to dilute it's power.
This is exactly right. Thank you for putting that into words.

I loved the book, I can see that there are a few loose ends but I don't care. I think JKR did amazingly well tying everything together. To think that it mattered that Harry caught the Snitch in his mouth in his very first Quidditch game! That Peeves dropped the Vanishing Cabinet in Book Two...that Draco disarmed Dumbledore rather than stunning him...the whole series was a remarkable achievement.

Scenes that did me in: Ron, and then Neville, getting the sword of Gryffindor. Neville bursting into the Hog's Head. Harry using Expelliarmus against Voldemort at the very end. And, mostly, Narcissa Malfoy betraying Voldemort at the end so she could go find her son -- an action just as brave as Lily Potter standing between Voldemort and Harry all those years ago. JKR sets a great deal of store in a mother's love.

Oh, I also loved that Teddy Lupin and Victoire Weasley were snogging. Of course they're attracted to one another -- they're both a little bit werewolf.
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#442 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:40 PM
 
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Oh, I also loved that Teddy Lupin and Victoire Weasley were snogging. Of course they're attracted to one another -- they're both a little bit werewolf.
You know, that detail didn't even occur to me! That's cool
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#443 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:42 PM
 
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Rowling also didn't answer


Quote:
Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why..

Quote about doing magic late in life


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In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about.


Merope couldn't do magic in desperate situations
It really bugged me that none of these predictions, gleamed from interviews with JKR, came true. Maybe the "magic late in life" could refer to Ariana, but it doesn't quite fit. She showed magical ability in childhood, but then she was injured and unable to control her magic.

She may have been referring to Aberforth, but once again he wasn't a Squibb; he went to Hogwarts- didn't he even go to Azkaban for innapropriate charms on goats? So that makes it obvious he was a wizard from the beginning.

I was really looking forward to seeing Filch, Mrs. Figg, or one of the Durleys do some magic! I can't help but wonder if there was a small scene with Filch in the Battle that got edited out.

And there was nothing whatsoever about professor's spouses. Why would that have been a big deal to share in an interview? How about something along the lines of "Some of them have spouses, but it's not really important to the story." Why give us that red herring?

Oh, and about the ebm thing- I'm firmly convinced that Andromeda Tonks used a relactation charm when she agreed to babysit, and nursed her grandson until he was ready to wean.

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#444 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:46 PM
 
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Regarding the allegiance of wands, reread the "The Wandmaker" chapter. Ollivander explains wands changing allegiances and how a wand can be won.

Voldemort could not properly use the Elder Wand because when he stole it from Dumbledore's tomb, Dumbledore was no longer the owner. Draco was, and then when Harry took Draco's regular wand from him at Malfoy Manor, by default, he also gained possession of the Elder Wand. A wand will not cause harm to its rightful owner.

Though I don't think Expelliarmus would normally cause a wand to recognize a new owner, it did in the case of Dumbledore and Draco because Dumbledore never again used the Elder Wand. In most cases of Expelliarmus, the original owner eventually regains his own wand.

Harry wasn't able to properly use the wand that Ron took from the Snatchers because Ron is the one that took it, not Harry, so that wand did not recognize Harry as the new owner.
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#445 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 12:59 PM
 
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I wonder how well Neville's dad's wand worked for Neville. His dad certainly gave him permission to use it, but Neville didn't seem to truly come into his own until he got his own wand from Ollivander.

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#446 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 01:00 PM
 
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Things I wanted to know from this book but didn't find out:

What James and Lily Potter did for a living, how they earned piles of gold at gringotts?
James Potter came from an old wizarding family and I am sure he came by his cash the same way Sirius did, inheritance.

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#447 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 01:07 PM
 
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Oh wow. Just finished and my mind is still racing! SNAPE! It was so sad for me to hear his story. He lived his whole life for Harry basically and how haunting for him that he looked just like his dad. Snape sacrificed everything and had to be the bad guy. He was left all alone from the other order folk and it just made me cry so hard when Harry told albus about his name! It was really good!

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#448 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 01:10 PM
 
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the two loose ends for me were about the dursleys and the grangers. Especially after learning about petunia.

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#449 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 01:11 PM
 
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I wonder how well Neville's dad's wand worked for Neville. His dad certainly gave him permission to use it, but Neville didn't seem to truly come into his own until he got his own wand from Ollivander.
I had wondered about that, too. Didn't Ron come to school with one of his brother's wands, too? I wonder if a wand being a gift, or having a familial connection, also has any bearing?
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#450 of 1280 Old 07-23-2007, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamamillet View Post
Oh wow. Just finished and my mind is still racing! SNAPE! It was so sad for me to hear his story. He lived his whole life for Harry basically and how haunting for him that he looked just like his dad. Snape sacrificed everything and had to be the bad guy. He was left all alone from the other order folk and it just made me cry so hard when Harry told albus about his name! It was really good!
Really? Because for me, Snape was a scary guy who stalked Lily, tried to alienate her from her friends and families, was verbally nasty to her by calling her one of the ugliest words in the English language, tried to trade her life for her son and husband's, and then went on to treat Harry like crap pretty much all the time, and I think he enjoyed it. I don't think he lived his whole life for Harry, I think he lived it for Lily, and I don't think it was healthy either. I found it weird that Harry would turn around and name his son after him.

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