The big HP and the Deathly Hallows thread! *Contains spoilers* - Page 17 - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:43 PM
 
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Nope. Neville did noble, heroic, brave, SMART things. Things that no one would have suspected he was capable of even 3 years ago. Molly, a mother, avenged Alice, another mother and probably a friend by offing Bella. Her reasoning, of course, was that Bella was attacking her kid, but there are a few levels of poetic justice in Molly doing it. I prefer it this way.
THis exactly. I was actually worried that Neville WOULD kill Bellatrix. Just like DD was worried Draco would kill him, worried about the effect of killing on Draco's soul, I was worried about th effect of killing on Neville's kind, loving, honorable, noble soul.

Neville didn't have to kill a human to avenge his parents -- he did avenge his parents by proving he was a TRUE Gryffindor (pulling the sword from the hat) and by taking down the last Horcrux. If Neville had not killed Nagini, Harry would not have been able to kill Voldemort.

I am glad Neville didn't kill Bellatrix. He can live his life knowing he has made his grandmother proud (something he always wanted), knowing he is a TRUE Gryffindor, and knowing he helped to end the horror that ultimately destroyed his parents all without becoming what he sought to destroy.

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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Was anyone else the slightest bit disappointed that Neville didn't kill Bellatrix?
I was just so thrilled by what he'd already done -- held Dumbledore's Army together, fought so bravely, killed the snake -- that it didn't matter to me. Someone else mentioned this, but I was glad that none of the kids ended up killing anyone.

Edited to add: In other words, whatever everybody else on this page said. It took me a long time to write my original post!
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:46 PM
 
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This is exactly right. Thank you for putting that into words.
You're welcome! Thank you for noticing my post in this ginormous thread!


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Oh, I also loved that Teddy Lupin and Victoire Weasley were snogging. Of course they're attracted to one another -- they're both a little bit werewolf.
AWESOME! I did not think of that at all!


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Oh, and about the ebm thing- I'm firmly convinced that Andromeda Tonks used a relactation charm when she agreed to babysit, and nursed her grandson until he was ready to wean.




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Sorry if its already been discussed as I skimmed the first 20 pages quickly, but thoughts on the fact that Draco did not quickly identify potter and friends when they were brought to his house? He knew it was them.
I noticed this too! His heart was just not in following Voldemort, wasn't in book 6 either. I think in the end during the battle, when he went in search of Harry, he was just thinking that if he could deliver Harry to V., then his family would be forgiven. I think he was trying to help his parents then.


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I never read a single one of those interviews in all of these years and I will tell you why...Rita Skeeter

JKR's depiction of Skeeter illustrated her disdain for the press in general and she used the character to point out time and time again that the press could not be trusted. How many times did Skeeter misrepresent "interviews" that she had done with Harry and the others.

To me this was JKR saying loud and clear, "Don't believe anything you read even if it is attributed to me.
I did not put this connectiong together so explicity, and I thank you for posting it. I am not disappointed in the story because I wasn't expecting anything based on interviews because I was clueless to them. The story wrapped up nicely for me because I wasn't trying to figure out who was the "late in life magic dealer" while I was reading as I was unaware of this comment. I just took the books as they were...





One thing I did notice, I haven't seen anyone post about, so I must be the only anal retentive nutty... JKR used the color description "gold" or "golden" about 400 times in this book!!! When I was in the third chapter I became convinced it was going to tie into the final battle scene somehow because I had already read it so.many.times. by then! Everytime I got to that word again, I was like really, JKR? REALLY?? Does this item/object HAVE to be gold too?? It was freaking me out, man! (at self!)
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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AND he is related to the Malfoys too- through Sirius, Bellatrix, and Narcissus- a loose relationship to be sure- but still..
Wait... what? He's not related to them, is he?
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This I get. But I still feel that to live the rest of his life to help harry does redeem him. He never actually "does" anything evil. I do think he continued to work out his hatred of James with harry--which isn't good, but he does sacrifice himslef completely for Harry...and James wasn't such as nice guy. He and his friends had major faults too!
Which is all fine, but I still don't think Harry would name his child after him. That felt extremely contrived.

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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Well, he was desperate at that point and Dumbledore pointed out to him that he was thinking wrongly. Dumbledore did say "You disgust me." so I think Snape got the picture earlier on.

Snape didn't even flinch about killing Dumbledore, but he was horrified when Dumbledore was telling him that Harry would have to die.

Snape didn't stalk Lily, they were friends, and he was trying to reconcile with her, as many people would do in such a situation.

Yes, he did treat Harry and Neville like crap, but had Voldemort chosen Neville, Lily would still be there. Had Harry died, Lily would still be there.

It is a twisted and irrational sort of thinking.

But we also have to recall Snape's home situation and how very valuable a kind friend would have been to him when he was young.
This is how I see Snape too. I think he was a tortured soul and his love for Lily and loyalty to Dumbledore redeemed him. I think he cared for Harry and all of the children he just couldn't show it because of his role.

Harry telling his son Albus his full name made me cry. "Bravest man I ever knew." :sniffle:

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by waiting4it2snow View Post
One thing I did notice, I haven't seen anyone post about, so I must be the only anal retentive nutty... JKR used the color description "gold" or "golden" about 400 times in this book!!! When I was in the third chapter I became convinced it was going to tie into the final battle scene somehow because I had already read it so.many.times. by then! Everytime I got to that word again, I was like really, JKR? REALLY?? Does this item/object HAVE to be gold too?? It was freaking me out, man! (at self!)
Well, she did study alchemy in preparation for the series. The stages of alchemy are black, white, red, and gold. The black stage ended with Sirius' death, the white with Dumbledore's, the red with the destruction of the last horcrux, which brought us to the coming of the golden stage/golden child.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One thing I did notice, I haven't seen anyone post about, so I must be the only anal retentive nutty... JKR used the color description "gold" or "golden" about 400 times in this book!!! When I was in the third chapter I became convinced it was going to tie into the final battle scene somehow because I had already read it so.many.times. by then! Everytime I got to that word again, I was like really, JKR? REALLY?? Does this item/object HAVE to be gold too?? It was freaking me out, man! (at self!)


Even Harry's essence in the Polyjuice was gold.

"Oh Harry, you look so much tastier than Crabbe and Goyle.":
Way to give the H/Hr shippers false hope, Jo.

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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There was a lot of gold imagery now that you mention it--the wedding had tons of it!

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:53 PM
 
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Wait... what? He's not related to them, is he?
Yes. They're related to Slytherin down the line somehow, meaning they're then related to Tom Riddle, who is descended from a Peverell, as is Harry. But ALL the pureblood families are interrelated, this point is made very clear in book 5.

ETA: This is the Black family tree. Although it says Andromeda Black was blasted off for marrying muggle Ted Tonks, and Order of the Phoenix says he was muggle-born, it's a pretty good way to see how people are interrelated, in general. For instance, if you look over to the left, you'll see Lucretia Black married Ignatius Prewett. Molly Weasley's maiden name was Prewett, which we know because her brothers were Gideon and Fabian (confirmed in Deathly Hallows when Molly gives Harry Fabian's old watch). Cedrella Black was blasted off for marrying Septimus Weasley, the Weasleys being known "blood traitors." Meaning, somehow somewhere along the line, Molly and Arthur are related.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:54 PM
 
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I think the malfoys were all about what served them best. Their were snobby purebloods that did not really care about anyone--but I am still not sure why draco would not have identified the trio right off the bat?

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:56 PM
 
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The first chapter sent chills down my spine, still does *shudder*

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:57 PM
 
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This is how I see Snape too. I think he was a tortured soul and his love for Lily and loyalty to Dumbledore redeemed him. I think he cared for Harry and all of the children he just couldn't show it because of his role.

Harry telling his son Albus his full name made me cry. "Bravest man I ever knew." :sniffle:
I don't think he ever was redeemed until the end.

I think his redemption came at telling Harry the truth, the story wasn't one to be proud of, but he gave it to Harry anyways.

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Old 07-23-2007, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think he ever was redeemed until the end.

I think his redemption came at telling Harry the truth, the story wasn't one to be proud of, but he gave it to Harry anyways.
OK, that I can almost buy. Very nice!

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:00 PM
 
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And harry helped redeem him to everyone in his duel with lv...

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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I don't think he ever was redeemed until the end.

I think his redemption came at telling Harry the truth, the story wasn't one to be proud of, but he gave it to Harry anyways.
Yes, I agree. I do think his love and loyalty made him human too and kept him from becoming entirely evil. It ould have been easy for him to do so but instead he chose a harder road as a "secret" mentor to Harry.

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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I don't think he ever was redeemed until the end.

I think his redemption came at telling Harry the truth, the story wasn't one to be proud of, but he gave it to Harry anyways.
Yes, and I think that Harry repaid that gift by giving his name to his son. Apart from everything else, naming his son Albus Severus shows that Harry forgave Snape for being such a jerk all those years, in contrast to Snape's inability to forgive James and Sirius. It was the final "proof" of Harry's maturity and goodness, I think.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:05 PM
 
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But James and sirius did nothing to warrant forgiveness...and wasn't it snape that helped sirius out in POA?

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:07 PM
 
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But James and sirius did nothing to warrant forgiveness...and wasn't it snape that helped sirius out in POA?
I don't think Snape knew Sirius was innocent in POA which might be why Snape did as much as he could to get Sirius killed.

Him going completely bat&*%$ during that makes a lot more sense now.

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:08 PM
 
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But James and sirius did nothing to warrant forgiveness...and wasn't it snape that helped sirius out in POA?
I think Sirius and James did a lot to warrant forgiveness: years of cruelty. Sirius' trick that almost got Snape killed.

And, I don't remember Snape helping Sirius out in POA. He tried to turn him in.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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Wait... what? He's not related to them, is he?
not blood related, but...

Harry's godfather is Sirius who is the brother of Bellatrix and Narcissa.. the mother of Draco Malfoy.. IF Harry and Sirius had been blood related, Harry and Draco would have been cousins..

There was some distant relation between the Blacks and the Potters- I think a marriage though.. I was looking through the lexicon the other day.. someone remember?
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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Wait I am confused...I thought Snape knew he was innocent and went for wormtail when they were all in the shrieking shack place?

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:11 PM
 
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Wait I am confused...I thought Snape knew he was innocent and went for wormtail when they were all in the shrieking shack place?
Snape never heard the explanation.

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:11 PM
 
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Okay... a couple things around Hermione that frustrated me.

Harry and Ron not telling her ANYTHING about what the locket threw at Ron to try to dissuade him from destroying it. Their desire to protect Ron's ego and/or her delicate feminine sensibilities resulted in them withholding info from her that might have been useful. Suppose she had been alone and had to destroy one and something similar happened? She would be less prepared because of that. But in the end it didn't matter because she and Ron destroyed the cup offstage. Ho-hum... it's just the result of a half year long quest... why would the readers be interested in the details of that?

Also, Harry "spares her the details" of what happened with Nagini and Bagshot. Dumb. Dangerous. She's in the fight and she needs to know what's going on. I coulda done with less chivalry.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:12 PM
 
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I think Sirius and James did a lot to warrant forgiveness: years of cruelty. Sirius' trick that almost got Snape killed.
I wrote that wrong, what I meant was they did a lot of cruel tuff but what did they ever do for Snape that would warrant him forgiving them.

ANd I am getting more and more confused about POA

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:23 PM
 
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Okay... a couple things around Hermione that frustrated me.

Harry and Ron not telling her ANYTHING about what the locket threw at Ron to try to dissuade him from destroying it. Their desire to protect Ron's ego and/or her delicate feminine sensibilities resulted in them withholding info from her that might have been useful. Suppose she had been alone and had to destroy one and something similar happened? She would be less prepared because of that. But in the end it didn't matter because she and Ron destroyed the cup offstage. Ho-hum... it's just the result of a half year long quest... why would the readers be interested in the details of that?

Also, Harry "spares her the details" of what happened with Nagini and Bagshot. Dumb. Dangerous. She's in the fight and she needs to know what's going on. I coulda done with less chivalry.

Well, some of what the locket was saying involved her, trying to play on his jealousies against Harry.

Now that would have been an extremely awkward situation. I don't think Ron and Hermoine were really together at that point were they? Things are implied but it isn't totally clear. If they were together they were moving pretty slowly and carefully. I don't think Ron was ready to have his guts spilled open like that to Hermoine.

I don't think Harry was looking after Hermoine at all but Ron.

Harry did tell Hermoine about what happened with Bathilda Bagshot.

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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Well, some of what the locket was saying involved her, trying to play on his jealousies against Harry.

Now that would have been an extremely awkward situation. I don't think Ron and Hermoine were really together at that point were they? Things are implied but it isn't totally clear. If they were together they were moving pretty slowly and carefully. I don't think Ron was prepared to have his guts spilled open like that to Hermoine.

Harry did tell Hermoine about what happened with Bathilda Bagshot.
I'm not saying they had to tell her all the details.. but they should have told her that the locket threw up images and told insidious lies that could have played on Ron's insecurities. Heck, they could have stuck with the "Mom loves Ginny best" part and she'd have been forewarned, yaknow?

As I recall... don't have my book handy, that Harry told Hermione that Bathilda "sort of turned into" Nagini when in fact Nagini was wearing poor Bathilda's corpse as a suit. Again... it ultimately didn't matter and JK knew that but Harry didn't. Holding back important details from the person who is frequently the brains of the group is dumb.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:30 PM
 
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I loved this book even though I thought it was very dark and incredibly sad in places. I was so not prepared for Fred to die. The twins were always my very favorite character and even in all the years of "what ifs," it never occured to me that one of them might not make it. I had to put it down for a good twenty minutes at the point to catch my breath.

I really liked the epilogue...: I'm glad she didn't give us more details. She let us know the really important things - Hogwarts continues and Ron & Hermione and Harry & Ginny end up together. That's all I really needed to know. I like the fact that the intervening 19 years between the Battle of Hogwarts and Albus Potter going off to school for the first time is wide open for me to wonder about. If everything was all wrapped up and explained, it really would be over for me, if that makes sense.

I love the PP's thoughts about JKR's interviews and Rita Skeeter - awesome analysis, that never occured to me.

I thought the "thing" that was at King's Cross with Harry and Dumbledore was pretty disturbing. I had to read the ending numerous times before I really figured it out. Harry says to Voldemort in the end of the battle that he's seen what Voldemort will become. I think Harry realized that the thing was what would happen to Voldemort when he died. Did anyone else think that?
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:32 PM
 
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I thought the "thing" that was at King's Cross with Harry and Dumbledore was pretty disturbing. I had to read the ending numerous times before I really figured it out. Harry says to Voldemort in the end of the battle that he's seen what Voldemort will become. I think Harry realized that the thing was what would happen to Voldemort when he died. Did anyone else think that?
Oh, nice one!

I think you are right.

I thought it was a piece of Voldemort's soul, but it makes sense that it will be like that when he dies with only a small piece left.

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Old 07-23-2007, 04:33 PM
 
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Would it be inappropriate for me to offer to console George? I'd be happy to. More than happy to.
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