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#181 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Albus Severus and Scorpius = A whole new world of fan fiction

And you know, you all are right about Molly and Fred's death. I hadn't though about that. I really need a second reading.

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#182 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:46 PM
 
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I think it was a little more than that. I think it was more, "I'm killing you because I've already lost one kid and if I let you live, I'll lost another." Bellatrix was doing more than "screwing" with people.
Yeah honestly, they are fighting ultimate evil here.. I didn't find a lack of politeness a problem at all.

Though it goes back to how this is really not a kids book.

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#183 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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Things I liked:

Her homage to LOTR. The flight through the forests, camping, seeking to destroy something(s) that the enemy needs to survive, the horcrux around the neck....throughout these novels there have always been allusions to LOTR. I don't see them as copying; I see them as how Tolkien wanted LOTR to become, the missing cultural mythology of England. I like the links, to me it makes the story richer. The horicrux locket seems even more evil when it reeks of the one ring. Understanding the link between the dementors and the Nazgul make the dementors even more terrifying. That sort of thing.
See, and this is a total "to each her own" thing, but I HATED the homage to LOTR for 2 reasons: 1) because I didn't like LOTR and 2) because it plays into all the criticisms that JKR ripped off HP from a number of other fantasy works. I have always staunchly defended her on that, and then she turns around and "pays homage" to LOTR which the critics will be all over.

I love this series. I truly do. I waited 8 years to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

That being said, I think this book really showed JKR's inexperience in wrapping up a story. I am a stickler for a perfect ending, and I was satisfied with the endings to all the other books. It bothers me that once stripped from the school setting and timeline, the book didn't captivate me as the others did.

I need to read it again, but I hate that my first impressions were critical.
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#184 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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I'm bummed by all the things we didn't learn in the epilogue. Does Teddy show any werewolf tendencies, or is he perfectly normal? Who raised him? What happened to all the other characters- who did they marry, what did they do after graduation, etc?
I think it's pretty much implied that Teddy was raised by Andromeda (Tonks' mother).



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How did anybody in the Order trust Snape after Dumbledore's death? How on earth did Snape learn about the plan to move Harry? Why didn't the Order change the date after Snape's apparent defection?
I'm thinking that Mundungus told him about their plans. I don't think anyone else trusted Snape, but Mundungus has always been very sketchy. And in the chapter with all of Snape's memories, we see that after Snape knows the date, Dumbledore's portrait suggests Confunding Mundungus and telling him to have the Order use the decoys.
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#185 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:50 PM
 
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I finished it last night, it took me about 8 hours. I have to say, I wasn't that happy with it, the epilogue was lame, I hated that Hedwig died (that's the death that bothered me the most!). I found the book had too much crammed into it, in JKR's fury to finish it all up. Also the books are not cohesive as a series, I find. The first book was inarguably a kid's book. The last one was a book for adults (although not up to adult literary standards ). I guess the argument could be made that the readers have "grown up" with Harry, but... ugh.

Most of all I hate that it's over : I really did love the books, deus ex machina and all
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#186 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:52 PM
 
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4. WTF Harry left Ring in the yard?? Harry told Dumbledore he wasn't going to go get the ring and Dumbledore is all "K that sounds like a good plan, I leave magic rings just laying around all the time"
This made me LOL so freaking hard.

About Snape and Grimmauld Place, I thought the same thing, couldn't he just tell all the Death Eaters?

I think we should petition for a better epilogue and ANSWERS!!!

I always felt like Harry would name his daughter after his ma.

The one thing that I hated about the deaths...it felt like they just held no significance. I understand why Cedric and Sirius died, what she was saying there and what it did for the series. I understand why the Potters died, orphaning Harry. But why Hedwig, Dobby, Remus, Tonks, and Fred? Of course there would be casualties but were there any significance to the deaths? It didn't feel like it to me. I had a teacher in highschool that felt like in books and movies these days chars are killed off so fast, just struck down, and for no good reason, and that it was kind of disrespectful to those characters that they were so dispensable. She felt like there should always be real significance, to give the deaths more weight. I just felt like...there wasn't much of this in the book. We didn't even see Remus or Tonks die. I just don't get the point.

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#187 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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I don't think everyone wants EVERYTHING to be tied up in a bow, but a little more closure to the story would have been nice. The battle ends and basically, so does the story. This isn't just some story either - this is a saga of seven books that people are very emotionally vested in. I mean, come on - what other book have people stood in line for hours to get at midnight besides Harry Potter. To just drop the story is kind of lame. The story is SO involved that there is no way she could have tied EVERYTHING up without writing a 1500 page book, so there would have been plenty for everyone to "decide for ourselves", but she still could have added more to the ending. I really hate it when you've been wrapped up in this huge, long, involved story and then BAM it just ends. She could have resolved a bit more.
I agree with pretty much everything you said here.
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#188 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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4. WTF Harry left Ring in the yard?? Harry told Dumbledore he wasn't going to go get the ring and Dumbledore is all "K that sounds like a good plan, I leave magic rings just laying around all the time"


Because how will evil rise again at a later date if we don't leave the magical tools lying around?

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#189 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 01:59 PM
 
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Okay, so now I want to see the original last chapter JKR wrote, the one she said she has written way back at the beginning before books 5 & 6 at least, that was supposed to end with Scar. I want to know, did she just rewrite a little, or was harry supposed to die and she changed it?

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#190 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:00 PM
 
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Yeah I was concerned about him just leaving it IN THE DARK FOREST too...

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#191 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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Some of this has been answered probably, but this is what I've read so far.

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There is a big hole between the end of the fight and the epilogue and I found that irritating. I could have used another chapter before the epilogue.
:

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The best parts for me were the ones that showed Neville had the skill set to be the Prophecy child; like when he pulled Gryffindor's sword from the sorting hat. He "saved the day" in a very trivial way in Book 1, and it's as gratifying to see HIS arc come full-circle as it is to see Harry's.
I love Neville. It's been great to watch him come into his own in the last 3 books.

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I'm still processing all this stuff, but how exactly did Draco defeat Dumbledore? I'm still not quite sure on that one. Is it because he spared him on the tower at the end of book six?
Because Draco disarmed him.

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OK, here's my question of the night--

Harry is crap at Occulmency. He freely admits this, and Hermione reminds him of it every other chapter. So why does he have a free pass into the daily activities of Voldemort, but Voldie doesn't have a clue what's going on in Potterville? Did I miss something?
Voldemort is scared of Harry's mind, and Harry really only sees V's mind when he's out of control.

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didn't Tonks and Lupin name Harry as Teddy's godfather? Doesn't that mean that he would have raised him? Who did raise him?
Tonk's mother, I imagine.

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What would have happened to snape if he broke the unbreakable vow, though I suppose its not as important since we found out dd was dying anyway, which was part of why he wanted snape to kill him, I thought hte effect of the unbreakable vow on snape was why DD would want him to kill him.
in HBP when Harry tells Ron that Snape made the unbreakable vow, Ron says that if you try to break it, you die.

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Yeah... it was weird. But, if I remember correctly, all Harry hissed was the parseltongue equivalent of "OPEN". And, I think Ron has heard Harry say that more recently... maybe even in the final book when trying to open the snitch? So, I don't think it has been 4 years since he heard it. But, still, it was odd.
Harry had to say it to get the locket open so Ron could stab it.

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3. She didn't mention Snape's portrait in the Headmaster's office. Why not?

4. WTF Harry left Ring in the yard?? Harry told Dumbledore he wasn't going to go get the ring and Dumbledore is all "K that sounds like a good plan, I leave magic rings just laying around all the time"
The ring was lost in the woods. I don't imagine anyone will find it for quite some time, and if they do, it's not too dangerous, really. As for Snape's portrait, didn't Dumbledore's only show up after his funeral? I need to read that bit again.

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So, when Dobby showed up to help them in Malfoy's basement, why hadn't Harry thought to summon Kreacher to help?

We never did learn what happened at Godric's Hollow: how did everyone know exactly what happened? How did Voldemort's wand wind up rescued such that he got it back eventually? How could DD and Hagrid know where to go to rescue Harry if they didn't know Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper? I thought those questions were going to be answered!

Was Lavender Brown killed or just contaminated when Greyback attacked her?
Harry didn't think to summon Kreacher because he thought he was talking to Dumbledore in the mirror fragment.

Re: Godric's Hollow. Didn't Sirius show up there first? He could have at least summoned them to the general vicinity.

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How did anybody in the Order trust Snape after Dumbledore's death? How on earth did Snape learn about the plan to move Harry? Why didn't the Order change the date after Snape's apparent defection?
Dumbledore's portrait told Snape to confund Mundungus and get him to suggest the new transport date and the imposter Harries. So nobody trusted Snape, but they trusted the confunded Mundungus. Because he wouldn't act all that different from regular Mundungus, would he?

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#192 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:16 PM
 
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I wasn't looking for everything to be tied up in a pretty bow so it looks like a hollywood movie.

I remember, in 11th grade, talking with my English teacher about what made a novel good enough to be a "classic". One of the points she made that really stuck with me was, a truly great novel doesn't waste your time. It doesn't waste words. Every word has meaning. No, not every word drives the plot. Many are there as symbols, or are there to give depth to the characters. But the book is tight. There are no dangling ends. No character is introduced and then dropped for no good reason. You don't open a story and then leave it hanging (well, unless it's done intentionally, i.e. Cask of Amontillado. But the what's left dangling in this story does not help drive the story itself any further.)

We all wanted to know how all the events around Godric's Hollow went down (how did DD know where to find the Potters after their death? etc.) Continuing to not know did not benefit the story at all. It was just left hanging. We had six books worth of Fred and George being, not merely brothers, not merely twins, but two halves of the same person. Fred dies, and all we see is George crying beside the body? No word of how he processes it? No word of whether or not he's able to continue battling, or if he goes into the next part of the battle like a Berserker? Other characters simply disappeared, you never find out if they survived. Xenophilius Lovegood, the Dursleys. Fletcher, you kind of expect to disappear. He's that kind of guy. But the other characters, where did they go?
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#193 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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The other thought I have about Godric's Hollow was that Dumbledore already knew where the Potters lived. So he may not have known that they were secluded there, but once he got wind of there being an attack, it could've been the first place he looked. And obviously the fidelius charm was broken since the house was left as a monument.

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#194 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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What does deus ex machina mean?
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#195 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:27 PM
 
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Re: the epilogue (I've already listed what I liked and what made me cry LOL)

I wanted to know more about the world after Voldy's defeat...not just necessarily who married who. I want to know about the Death Eaters who survived, the Dementors, is Azkaban open, is Luna's dad OK, what about the poor Muggles on the lam, where's Voldy's body buried, why Harry didn't go back and destroy the "thing hidden in the Snitch" so it couldn't be used again...
I agree.

I finished the book last night. I have been boycotting the internet and tv until I was done to avoid spoilers! I somehow managed to read the book even though I was assembling all of the kids' new furniture and redoing their room. My stupid Amazon order never came, either! I changed my shipping address, but apparently it didn't go through. :

Either way, I sent dh out right before midnight to get it on Friday. Good thing!

I really was very upset over the deaths in the book. There were many I figured would happen-Lupin, Pettigrew, Voldy, Lucius, Molly...but I was so wrong about most of my death predictions! I would guess I was about 75% right about what I predicted for the book, and had some maniacal laughter at pointes where I just *knew* that would happen.

I am going to have to go back and reread the book. It always flows better the 2nd or 3rd time through.

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#196 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:35 PM
 
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What does deus ex machina mean?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

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#197 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:41 PM
 
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"Yeah, I just tried to remember what you hissed at the sink back when we were second years and just sort of hissed in the general direction of the pipes, and bing, bang, boom, next thing you knew we had basilisk fangs. Who knew Parseltongue was so easy?"

Ok.
But Ron had heard Harry open up the locket just a few months before.


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I believe he was raised by Tonks' mother. She says "my mum will look after [Teddy]" in the Room of Requirement.
OK, that makes sense.

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Yeah - but how did it get from Griphook (who had it when the other 3 escaped from Gringott's) into the sorting hat? That's what didn't make sense to me...is there some kind of 'sorting hat' magic that pulls the sword to it or something? A bit weird (and if it was explained somewhere, I missed it).
I imagine it was some kind of "sorting hat magic" that got the sword to Harry in Book 2 and to Neville in Book 7. I bet Griphook wasn't too happy about that though!

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And now Ron and Harry have an even deeper bond...now Ron GETS it what it's like to have He Who Shall Not be Named murder a family member.

I LOVE!!! How Harry and Hermione and Ron are all family now and all Weasleys.
Good point about Ron now "getting it"- I hadn't thought about things that way at all. The trio being BIL/BIL/SIL I predicted a while ago- I'm glad I was correct!

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Ok. I'm still trying to figure out some things that I thought would be answered, and it seems that I'm not the only one. I thought we were supposed to see someone doing magic late in life, but unless I missed it, I didn't see anyone doing magic that hadn't done it before.
I think that was Aberforth Dumbledore. But I never had any reason to believe he couldn't do magic before, even if it wasn't explicitely shown.
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I also thought that we were supposed to find out the professions of James and Lily.

We never did find out how the Potters and the Longbottoms thrice defied Voldemort.

I would have liked to have seen Neville be the one to off Bellatrix. Revenge and all that. But I was glad to see him come into himself.
The cool thing about Neville NOT being the one to kill Bellatrix is that none of the "kids" committed murder. Neville's soul is intact. [/QUOTE]


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I know a lot of people are discontented with the number of deaths, and how quickly and without fanfair a lot of them occurred--but that's how death is. I would think in those situations, it's so intense, all these people around you are alive...and then one (or more) of them is dead. You don't have time to mourn. You either give up or go on. I haven't been around people who've died in a traumatic situation, but I imagine that in a war situation, you don't have time to mourn your dead; you just go on, others step up to take their place, and you deal with it.
Yes, which is why we needed another chapter after the Battle and before the Epilogue- to show people processing everything and moving on with life.

Knowing that JKR had given some people reprieves while killing others, every death I read about made me think "Oh, good, it wasn't one of the Trio or Ginny". Is that terrible of me?

And when George was maimed, I really thought that both of the twins were saved. I figured that was enough damage for the twins to face. IF he hadn't been maimed, I would have been waiting for one of them to get hurt or killed- but I figured he was already hurt, so the damage was over, right? : This makes the 3rd book/series I've read with redheaded twin boys/men where at least one of them is killed in battle around age 18 or so.

I guess JKR, by not giving everybody's story in the epilogue, managed to skirt the whole gay issue. At least some of the characters have to be gay, just based on statistics, right? By not pairing everybody off with somebody of the opposite sex, she leaves that open without actually writing about it.

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#198 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:44 PM
 
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The other thought I have about Godric's Hollow was that Dumbledore already knew where the Potters lived. So he may not have known that they were secluded there, but once he got wind of there being an attack, it could've been the first place he looked. And obviously the fidelius charm was broken since the house was left as a monument.
Maybe the charm drops when the person who performed the charm dies? Perhaps James actually performed the charm, so when he died, the charm fell. Of course that would have to mean that DUmbledore did not perform the charm on 12 grimmauld place since it didn't drop when he died, but that's possible, she never says who actually created that specific charm as far as I remember, only that dumbledore is the secret keeper.

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#199 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 02:57 PM
 
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And when George was maimed, I really thought that both of the twins were saved. I figured that was enough damage for the twins to face. IF he hadn't been maimed, I would have been waiting for one of them to get hurt or killed- but I figured he was already hurt, so the damage was over, right? :
After George lost an ear, I totally thought that, in the last chapter (you know, the one I expected her to have where she wrapped up the story after the battle), we would find out that Fred magicked off his own ear so that he and George could continue to get a kick out of being identical and tricking people. Alas, it was not to be. :

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#200 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:08 PM
 
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Regarding Godric's Hollow and Sirius, Dumbledore, Hagrid, etc. being able to rescue baby Harry: The thing with the Fidelius charm is, not JUST the Secret Keeper can find the place. Otherwise, no one would be able to go back to Grimmauld place after Dumbledore died. The Secret Keeper has to tell others the location. I would imagine that Sirius and Dumbledore at least were privy to that information.

But I also think that in this particular case, the charm broke when James and Lily were killed. Harry still being present probably didn't keep the charm in place since he was just a baby; the charm probably couldn't register his magical powers (rather like the boat in the cave not recognizing unqualified wizards). Remember, when Harry and Hermione go to Godric's Hollow, they can see the house plain as day. They wouldn't have been told the location by Wormtail, who was the Secret Keeper, so the charm had to be broken in some way.

Either that, or the charm broke when Harry was taken from the ruins. Without any of the people there that the Fidelius Charm was intended to protect, it was no longer needed. But that wouldn't explain why Grimmauld place is still hidden, unless there are different ways to perform the Fidelius Charm, so that you can protect different things with it.
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#201 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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I think that was Aberforth Dumbledore. But I never had any reason to believe he couldn't do magic before, even if it wasn't explicitely shown.
I don't think so. Aberforth attended Hogwarts. He also dueled with Albus and Grindelwald over Ariana.
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#202 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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Oh, and Harry didn't "leave the magic ring lying in the yard." He left it in the middle of the Forbidden Forest! He's not going to risk his life trying to locate it again.

And about 12 Grimmauld Place. I got the feeling that the Black family had set it up to be invisible to Muggles a very long time ago, well before the Order took it over to use as headquarters.

I imagine that Harry and Kreacher moved back in, cleaned the place up, and it was a very happy, wholesome place for Harry, Ginny and their kids to live in.

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#203 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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I don't think so. Aberforth attended Hogwarts. He also dueled with Albus and Grindelwald over Ariana.
I think we just may have to accept that the "magic late in life" thing was a red herring.
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#204 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:18 PM
 
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Ruthla,
I assume you've finished the book. How about your daughter? Are you having a tough time keeping quiet while she finishes?

My mom lives 12ish hours away from me. She is about halfway through the book and we keep talking to each other via phone and I have to be VERY careful what I say.

I am interested to hear what a younger reader has to say about this book. It definitely had some mature themes/moments.

Me , 36 year old RN and future AP mom in training . I am wife to one wonderful husband and "mom" to one great rescue pup :.
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#205 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:27 PM
 
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Regarding Godric's Hollow and Sirius, Dumbledore, Hagrid, etc. being able to rescue baby Harry: The thing with the Fidelius charm is, not JUST the Secret Keeper can find the place. Otherwise, no one would be able to go back to Grimmauld place after Dumbledore died. The Secret Keeper has to tell others the location. I would imagine that Sirius and Dumbledore at least were privy to that information.
I would guess Sirius knew. But, if anybody else knew (DD, Hagrid, anybody), then that person would have known Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper. Nobody knew he was, ergo he hadn't told anybody other than possibly Sirius the Secret.
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#206 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:27 PM
 
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Let's talk for a moment about the deathly hallows. Here's what I think is odd: it's the title, so obviously very important. Harry becomes obsessed with them and DD leaves clues all over for Harry to learn about them. Yet, when Harry has all three objects together, he doesn't do anything to activate them or become invincible over death. LV doesn't even learn that the three could lead to invincibility (odd) so he doesn't play into it. So why are they so important? Nothing happened with this aspect of the plot. Why name the book after it?

It felt like when I'm hearing a story and you know if the person opens the door, something really bad will happen. And you spend some time just wishing the person hadn't opened the door (but then the rest of the story would be so boring). Yet Harry never opened the door of the deathly hallows- all that bad stuff that would've happened is avoided. So why does it even matter???
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#207 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:31 PM
 
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I think it illustrates Harry's need for normalcy. Yes, all those things would be great, but Harry's actions are not dictated by jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
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#208 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:38 PM
 
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Let's talk for a moment about the deathly hallows. Here's what I think is odd: it's the title, so obviously very important. Harry becomes obsessed with them and DD leaves clues all over for Harry to learn about them. Yet, when Harry has all three objects together, he doesn't do anything to activate them or become invincible over death. LV doesn't even learn that the three could lead to invincibility (odd) so he doesn't play into it. So why are they so important? Nothing happened with this aspect of the plot. Why name the book after it?

It felt like when I'm hearing a story and you know if the person opens the door, something really bad will happen. And you spend some time just wishing the person hadn't opened the door (but then the rest of the story would be so boring). Yet Harry never opened the door of the deathly hallows- all that bad stuff that would've happened is avoided. So why does it even matter???
It shows the true natures of Harry and Big V.

Harry is too pure to use their powers.

Big V is too damaged to use them.

Classic good vs. evil stuff.

Take the time to heal from your marriage before you move on with someone else. Make a list of all the qualities you would like in a new partner and then work on growing that way yourself. ~mandib50
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#209 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:39 PM
 
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How could DD and Hagrid know where to go to rescue Harry if they didn't know Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper?
I imagine that they already knew where the Potters were. Kinda like how all the members of the order knew where headquarters was even though DD was the secret keeper.

Mom to dd1 7/00 reading.gif, dd2 12/03 upsidedown.gif, and ds 2/07 afro.jpg - home forever 9/07
In raising my children, I have lost my mind but found my soul. -Lisa T. Shepherd
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#210 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 03:39 PM
 
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I think the character that did magic later in life was Ariana Dumbledore. She refused to use magic after her attack (was it implied that it was a sexual attack ? ) but she used it when she killed her mother. Or was I way off on my interpretation of that? Need to reread that part.


About the epilogue (which was very disappointing to me)... didn't Jo write it years and years ago? Before she wrote any of the sequels to the 1st book even? That would explain why it seems so disjointed and why the writing style was more elementary than the rest of the book.

Rainbow.gif ~ Molly
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