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#241 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:04 PM
 
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Echoing everyone's thoughts...now adding a few of my own:

*I thought the whole "Christ Figure/Sacrificial Lamb" thing was a bit over-played - but I understood she had to do it..

*I have always thought that the underlying message was that we all have the capacity for good and evil and I liked that she (JKR) stuck with that theme in the Dumbledore sub-plot.

*I also like that Harry's reliance on friends and his ability to grieve and love was what made him different than V.

*I was sad the most when Ron left his two friends - and so happy when he came back.
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#242 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:06 PM
 
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We know that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper. Pettigrew had to have told Sirius at least; I would wager that Lupin knew as well, based on the events in COS. Bathilda Bagshot knew; Lily mentions in her letter to Sirius that she "drops in most days". I would still guess that Dumbledore knew; in the King's Cross chapter, Dumbledore says "You have guessed, I know, why the Cloak was in my possession on the night your parents died. James had showed it to me just a few days previously." I doubt that James was out walking around during that time frame, as that would defeat the purpose of the Fidelius Charm.
But, the letter to Sirius seems to have been written shortly after Harry's birthday. She thanks him for the gift he sent, and tells him about the birthday tea. So one would assume that letter was written in early to mid August. She does say that DD has James' cloak at that time. They didn't die until the end of October, three months after the birthday. Now, the Secret Keeper was changed only shortly before the event. So it would make sense that at the time of the letter, Sirius was still Secret Keeper and DD knew the location of the house.

I can't buy the argument that Pettigrew forged letters and sent them to folks like DD under Sirius' name, because that would give away that there'd been a change in regime. If they already knew from Sirius, why would "Sirius" have to tell them again? Then again, wouldn't some of them have noticed that they suddenly couldn't remember where the Potters were?

I do wish we could get a full accounting of the rules of the Fidelius charm from JKR. It does make sense that, perhaps, if a Secret Keeper changes, all those who already know the secret still know it. The only thing that changes is the person who can tell it. It also makes sense that the secret would not die with the Keeper, because then some things could be left hidden for eternity - for instance, some people. I prefer the explanation in the book to the one from JKR's statement.

I wonder why James was not the Secret Keeper for their Fidelius charm? It's written that Bill is the Secret Keeper for Shell Cottage, and Arthur is the Keeper at Aunt Muriel's.

Also, what happens to a Fidelius charm when the secret becomes obsolete? That could explain why the house in Godric's Hollow became visible after Harry left it. But then, wouldn't 12 Grimmauld become visible (at least to Wizards) after the Order vacated it as their hq? Then again, the secret for that charm might have been worded in a more complex manner: for instance, hiding the entire existence of 12 Grimmauld, not merely hiding the fact that the Order is hq-ing there. That would explain DD's comment that Voldemort could press his nose against the glass at the Godric's Hollow house and not see James and Lily. After all, if the GH house worked like 12 Grimmauld, Voldemort wouldn't even be able to see the house to press his nose against the glass.

But, the cloak thing is a time discontinuity. If Lily's telling Sirius that James had given DD the cloak back around the time of Harry's birthday, why is DD telling Harry James had lent it to him a few days before he died? Why would DD be keeping it from James for three months? Alternately, why would Lily be writing to Sirius three months after Harry's birthday to tell him about it and thank him for the gift? Hadn't Sirius visited them at all in that three month span, during which he was Secret Keeper for them?
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#243 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:09 PM
 
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I am a little disappointed by this idea that everything has to be all tied up in a bow, all questions resolved, everything exactly spelled out as to what happens to each character afterward, and that since it isn't, the ending stinks.

That is so Hollywood and so why I don't watch very many mainstream movies. I feel it is a very patronizing idea. Why can't we just all decide for ourselves what happens to everyone?
That isn't why I don't like the epilogue. Quite the opposite, actually. I don't like the epilogue because it seems so cheesy and contrived. Like it was tacked on there as an afterthought, just to wrap things up in a tidy little sugary bow. I almost wish I had stopped reading after the last chapter and skipped the epilogue all together.
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#244 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, did anyone else get echoes of Stephen King when Voldie was telling everyone to give him Harry and he would go away. It reminded me of King's TV script "The Storm," where he keeps saying to the people "Give me what I want, and I'll go away."

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#245 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:12 PM
 
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As for Tonks leaving her baby to go fight in a war: It bugged me that Tonks would put "being in on the action" ahead of her baby.
I didn't see it as wanting to be in on the action. I saw it as, she knew the only way her baby would be safe was through the death of Voldemort; and the death of Voldemort was only going to be accomplished with all hands on deck. I also wonder if she saw Remus run from her so many times, she wasn't willing to let him go this time. She wanted to help make sure her baby had his Daddy. Unfortunately, he lost both parents as a result
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#246 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:14 PM
 
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That isn't why I don't like the epilogue. Quite the opposite, actually. I don't like the epilogue because it seems so cheesy and contrived. Like it was tacked on there as an afterthought, just to wrap things up in a tidy little sugary bow. I almost wish I had stopped reading after the last chapter and skipped the epilogue all together.
I agree. It didn't close the book. It just said, "Hey, everyone lived happily ever after." We didn't need to know what any character went on to do 19 years down the line. We wanted to know how they coped with the aftermath of the events in the next few weeks.
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#247 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:15 PM
 
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So, did anyone else get echoes of Stephen King when Voldie was telling everyone to give him Harry and he would go away. It reminded me of King's TV script "The Storm," where he keeps saying to the people "Give me what I want, and I'll go away."
Yeah, I thought of that But, in "The Storm", the character *did* go away. Voldemort did not intend to go away when he was appeased. He might have laid off the siege of Hogwarts (or he may not have), but he wouldn't have given up his hold of the Ministry, or his other activities.
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#248 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:23 PM
 
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Dar, Mrs. weasley's quote was the best line in teh book- totally. agree.
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#249 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:28 PM
 
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i hear ya there! me neither- and we are supposed to be going to the drive in tonight to see OOTP- maybe I need a nap first!

so my question:

who the heck do you supposed JK considers the TWO deaths? :
the Weasley boy and Hedwig?
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#250 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:33 PM
 
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I agree. It didn't close the book. It just said, "Hey, everyone lived happily ever after." We didn't need to know what any character went on to do 19 years down the line. We wanted to know how they coped with the aftermath of the events in the next few weeks.
I agree, I would even have been ok with a more open ending but with the aftermath.

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#251 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I thought of that But, in "The Storm", the character *did* go away. Voldemort did not intend to go away when he was appeased. He might have laid off the siege of Hogwarts (or he may not have), but he wouldn't have given up his hold of the Ministry, or his other activities.
Well, technically, in the grand scheme of good and evil, the Storm dude didn't go away either. It was a false victory.

I just thought it was interesting given the relationship between King and JKR and I wondered if it was intentional.

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#252 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:42 PM
 
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Oh, and the other thing that frosted my twinkie?

"Yeah, I just tried to remember what you hissed at the sink back when we were second years and just sort of hissed in the general direction of the pipes, and bing, bang, boom, next thing you knew we had basilisk fangs. Who knew Parseltongue was so easy?"

Ok.
Ah... but Ron had hear HOW Harry had hissed.. I can repeat what someone else says to me in another language, without knowing its meaning.. the stress areas the tones... I do think it would have required quite some memory on his part (that I don't think he's capable of).
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#253 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:45 PM
 
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3. (This one is a little bizarre, but stick with me.) How the Death Eater reign of terror was so similar to the Abolitionist movement in the pre-Civil War U.S., and ESPECIALLY similar to the Holocaust. More so in this book than the others, I felt like she was really trying to make a point, and, in some way, prepare kids for the emotional impacts of the uglier parts of our history.

4. The way she explored the notion of the "other". Purebloods vs. mudbloods, non-human magical creatures vs. wandbearers, wizards vs. muggles, death eaters vs. blood traitors, etc. I thought she was pretty brilliant in the way she made her point in that, if you force people to take sides, pretty soon there's no one left.
Also, I loved it when Bill explained to Harry about goblin's notions of ownership and stealing, and how they're very different from human perceptions. How Bill made it clear that while he did not agree with goblin notions, he understood and respected them.

6. I actually liked it when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in the woods. Even tho' that was the darkest part of the book for me, it was reminiscant of hiding from Nazis or slaveowners. (See number 3.) I thought she made a great point about how, even people who survive reigns of terror by hiding or going out on the lam, the lack of contact with larger society is dehumanizing, and the survivors bear the scars of that, even if they escape torture and abuse.

7. That Molly Weasley killed Bellatrix Lestrange! I am so happy that Molly got to do it! She has always been one of my favorite characters, and was just elated that she got to dispatch Bellatrix.

I just love the Weasleys in general. They have been my favorite characters. Their house has been the one I've always wanted for myself: welcoming, interesting, and magical, to such a great extent that no one cares if it's nice or not.

The only thing that I outright hated in this book was that Hedwig died. And right off the bat. Not that I wanted anyone to die, but Hedwig?! She's an innocent.

On the whole, I'm glad I'm done reading, because I haven't even brushed my teeth today. :
Totally agree..
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#254 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ah... but Ron had hear HOW Harry had hissed.. I can repeat what someone else says to me in another language, without knowing its meaning.. the stress areas the tones... I do think it would have required quite some memory on his part (that I don't think he's capable of).
Yeah, I'm sure if we combed the books we could find five different explanations for how Ron could have done it. I just don't find any of them very plausible, even for a fantasy children's series. It seemed like something she had meant to write about, ran out of time, so she made up the first lame excuse she could think of.

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#255 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:47 PM
 
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But, the letter to Sirius seems to have been written shortly after Harry's birthday. She thanks him for the gift he sent, and tells him about the birthday tea. So one would assume that letter was written in early to mid August. She does say that DD has James' cloak at that time. They didn't die until the end of October, three months after the birthday. Now, the Secret Keeper was changed only shortly before the event. So it would make sense that at the time of the letter, Sirius was still Secret Keeper and DD knew the location of the house.

I can't buy the argument that Pettigrew forged letters and sent them to folks like DD under Sirius' name, because that would give away that there'd been a change in regime. If they already knew from Sirius, why would "Sirius" have to tell them again? Then again, wouldn't some of them have noticed that they suddenly couldn't remember where the Potters were?

I do wish we could get a full accounting of the rules of the Fidelius charm from JKR. It does make sense that, perhaps, if a Secret Keeper changes, all those who already know the secret still know it. The only thing that changes is the person who can tell it. It also makes sense that the secret would not die with the Keeper, because then some things could be left hidden for eternity - for instance, some people. I prefer the explanation in the book to the one from JKR's statement.

I wonder why James was not the Secret Keeper for their Fidelius charm? It's written that Bill is the Secret Keeper for Shell Cottage, and Arthur is the Keeper at Aunt Muriel's.

Also, what happens to a Fidelius charm when the secret becomes obsolete? That could explain why the house in Godric's Hollow became visible after Harry left it. But then, wouldn't 12 Grimmauld become visible (at least to Wizards) after the Order vacated it as their hq? Then again, the secret for that charm might have been worded in a more complex manner: for instance, hiding the entire existence of 12 Grimmauld, not merely hiding the fact that the Order is hq-ing there. That would explain DD's comment that Voldemort could press his nose against the glass at the Godric's Hollow house and not see James and Lily. After all, if the GH house worked like 12 Grimmauld, Voldemort wouldn't even be able to see the house to press his nose against the glass.

But, the cloak thing is a time discontinuity. If Lily's telling Sirius that James had given DD the cloak back around the time of Harry's birthday, why is DD telling Harry James had lent it to him a few days before he died? Why would DD be keeping it from James for three months? Alternately, why would Lily be writing to Sirius three months after Harry's birthday to tell him about it and thank him for the gift? Hadn't Sirius visited them at all in that three month span, during which he was Secret Keeper for them?
I don't think Sirius ever was the Secret Keeper for the Potters. In POA, it says:

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Harry...I as good as killed them," he croaked. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me...." (POA, pg. 365)

"Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it," Black hissed, so venomously that Pettigrew took a step backward. "I thought it was the perfect plan...a bluff... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you... It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." (POA, pg. 369)
James or Lily wouldn't have been their own Secret Keepers because if they had ever left the house and been captured or something, they could have been forced to reveal the secret, thus putting the other two in danger.

The time discontinuity bothers me as well. It's quite possible that that's a simple mistake.....with all of the other details that JKR has to keep up with, it wouldn't surprise me. I believe there have been a number of other pieces of confusing/conflicting information.
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#256 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:50 PM
 
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Maybe the charm was put on Lilly and James before Harry's birth, so he wasn't specifically mentioned in the charm.
Nope. It says in POA that the charm was performed barely a week before the Potters were killed.
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#257 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:55 PM
 
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Yeah, I'm sure if we combed the books we could find five different explanations for how Ron could have done it. I just don't find any of them very plausible, even for a fantasy children's series. It seemed like something she had meant to write about, ran out of time, so she made up the first lame excuse she could think of.
Ya know, it was only one word so it doesn't seem *too* implausible. It is a little odd he would remember it five years later though.

Ron is not known for being particularly attentive or subtle, so it doesn't seem to make much sense.

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#258 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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Ya know, it was only one word so it doesn't seem *too* implausible. It is a little odd he would remember it five years later though.

Ron is not known for being particularly attentive or subtle, so it doesn't seem to make much sense.
He heard Harry do it to open the locket in this book AND he & Hermione make it a point to say that it took a few tries to get it right.
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#259 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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4. WTF Harry left Ring in the yard?? Harry told Dumbledore he wasn't going to go get the ring and Dumbledore is all "K that sounds like a good plan, I leave magic rings just laying around all the time"

I don't believe it was the ring.. I believe it was the stone that was within the ring that had been broken..

when Harry opened his snitch, he believed it was one of the hallows that was inside- which was a stone..

I would totally put a magical stone in a magical forest-- sounds like a good combo to me!
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#260 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ya know, it was only one word so it doesn't seem *too* implausible. It is a little odd he would remember it five years later though.

Ron is not known for being particularly attentive or subtle, so it doesn't seem to make much sense.
Maybe that was it. If he had noticed it (five years later, or five chapters later), I would have preferred Harry to say something like, "Good job. I can't believe you remembered that!" than for it just to passed over like it was the most normal thing in the world.

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#261 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:05 PM
 
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I don't believe it was the ring.. I believe it was the stone that was within the ring that had been broken..

when Harry opened his snitch, he believed it was one of the hallows that was inside- which was a stone..

I would totally put a magical stone in a magical forest-- sounds like a good combo to me!
Oh....

You are right, it as just the stone and not the ring. But it was the stone that was magical, not the ring.

Well, it doesn't sound like a good idea to me but I guess if we see "Albus Potter and the Rock of DDOOOOMMM!" coming out then we'll know.

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#262 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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Maybe that was it. If he had noticed it (five years later, or five chapters later), I would have preferred Harry to say something like, "Good job. I can't believe you remembered that!" than for it just to passed over like it was the most normal thing in the world.
Yeah, it was kind of bizarre.

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#263 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You know what was really creepy? The human chandelier in chapter one. *shudders*

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Oh, and a question--did the fundamental rules of magic shift so that polyjuice now lasts as long as you need it to?

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#265 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:13 PM
 
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Oh, and a question--did the fundamental rules of magic shift so that polyjuice now lasts as long as you need it to?
Well, she does mention Harry turning back into Harry at the wedding (but wouldn't people notice?), and I think the transport wasn't supposed to take that long.
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#266 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:15 PM
 
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Oh, and a question--did the fundamental rules of magic shift so that polyjuice now lasts as long as you need it to?
I assumed they all simply pulled a Moody and carried a flask with extra potion in it. They would have had to in the Ministry... no way that took less than an hour.
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#267 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:17 PM
 
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I've got one... when did Harry get his Apparition license? For people so worried about being detected, they failed to cover that one.
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#268 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, she does mention Harry turning back into Harry at the wedding (but wouldn't people notice?), and I think the transport wasn't supposed to take that long.
But that was way more than the hour or so they had in CoS.

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And Unforgivables--they're OK now?

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#270 of 1280 Old 07-22-2007, 06:22 PM
 
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I loved the book, loved it, loved it. Except for the epilogue. Blech. WTF was she thinking?!?! It was so cheesy, and I really didn't care about "19 yrs later"...It was definitely missing something, an aftermath chapter. I can't believe she would leave something like that out. I read an interview where she was all "oh, some people are going to hate the ending". Well, lady, you were right. I hate the epilogue.

Also, thought that Mundungus betraying the Order's plan in the beginning was a little bit too obvious.

And I'm really glad that Snape turned out to be a good guy...well, a semi-good guy. I felt really bad for him, loving Lily so deeply, them being best friends, and yet she married someone else... I cried a lot during this book. Dobby's death, the battle of hogwarts where everyone is getting all fired up to fight, neville being a hero (which was *awesome* )..
Now, that said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Regarding Ariana, I think it had to have been something far more traumatic than taunting. I think they had to have done something truly terrible to her to make her change so much and to make her father go after them.
I agree with some of the pp's--I think it must have been sexual. Her father wouldn't have gone after them and killed them otherwise. Maybe hexed them, for picking on her, but it was more than that. It was very disturbing to think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaVolpe View Post
Anyone else think the romance with the Grey Lady and the Bloody Barron cool. I thought that was a great side story. It make the BB a bit less scary and more in depth character.
I liked it! I thought it was pretty cool too.

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