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#241 of 318 Old 02-07-2009, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aweynsayl View Post
rowling grabbed the script and wrote in the margins: "dumbledore is GAY!" ... then the actor playing dumbledore really started playing it up. [/SIZE]
seriously?? not that gay is bad, on the contrary...but dumbledore?? um, no. i don't see it at all.

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oh, see... i totally think gandalf is gay! hmmm.

lol, snape in the fellowship and strider at hogwarts....
gandalf is gayer than dumbledore, but both i don't think of as sexual at all.
strider...strider is so totally sirius black. and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Aubergine68 View Post
I always thought of the LOTR wizards as asexual (yes, I know, that really usually means repressed homosexual).

Maybe the discipline requires celibacy... did wizards start as human/elven/some lost race, or are they members of a separate race?
usually? it does? my mom has gotten asexual since her divorce from my dad, but she is certainly NOT gay. neither was my paternal grandmother, who was, i'm sure, celibate for some 35 years until her death. both of them had such a traumatic relationship that i think they were shellshocked and hated men from that point on but gay? nope.

i think the discipline does require celibacy. in body and mind and spirit. they never talk of loves, do they? just doing their master-wizardy stuff.

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#242 of 318 Old 02-07-2009, 09:03 PM
 
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usually? it does? my mom has gotten asexual since her divorce from my dad, but she is certainly NOT gay. neither was my paternal grandmother, who was, i'm sure, celibate for some 35 years until her death. both of them had such a traumatic relationship that i think they were shellshocked and hated men from that point on but gay? nope.
I don't think "shellshocked by a bad relationship" would equate to what I mean by asexual....I don't think I would define any human being as asexual. I was referring to in-poor-taste joking (like I was doing) about fantasy creatures and characters which might very well be imagined as having no sexual identity at all.

ETA: I suppose I was also thinking about literature classes I took many years ago where some fellow students got their kicks speculating about whether characters in classic literature were gay or not. Very immature stuff.

I certainly absolutely did not mean to offend. I am so sorry


I know Rowling has said in interviews that she envisioned Dumbledore's character as gay, but I don't really see it in the books. THere is some hurtful and unfounded innuendo in the wizard newspapers about something improper in Harry and D's relationship though, isn't there? Been a while since I read the books.

I agree that Aragorn and Sirius could swap roles with relative ease. The closest to Snape in the fellowship would be Boromir, I think?....
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#243 of 318 Old 02-07-2009, 10:50 PM
 
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I certainly absolutely did not mean to offend. I am so sorry

The closest to Snape in the fellowship would be Boromir, I think?....
oh my-- you didn't offend at all!! did i sound that way? i'm sorry! i was actually confused, not offended.

Boromir-- hmm. no, not Snape. i have to think on that one. let's see what the others say. i have it at the edges of my mind, but it's not coming to me at the moment

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#244 of 318 Old 02-07-2009, 11:49 PM
 
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I agree that Aragorn and Sirius could swap roles with relative ease.

I disagree. I see Sirius as rakish, who's not afraid to break inconvient rules. He's the misunderstood baddie who's really a good guy.

Aragorn is the son of kings. In exile, but still kingly. I just never considered them to be the same "flavor" of character.

As for Gladeriel, I think she did test herself in regards to the ring. She claims to have passed the test. The elves suspect that the unmaking of the ring will in the end, bring about their downfall. They are described as "fighting the long defeat". By taking the ring, she could have (might have) made those concerns insignificant. But she doesn't.

As for the wizards, and the question of their relationships (or lack thereof), well, I'm wondering about Tom Bombidil. I wasn't here when this book discussion started, so perhaps there's been a discussion already about the nature of Tom. He's described somewhere as eldest, master. Could he be Istari (wizard)? If so, he's not currently "practicing", as he's got his land, and Goldberry. Just a musing.

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#245 of 318 Old 02-08-2009, 12:55 AM
 
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Ok, I'm a little relieved. No worries, Maiasaura. Did I un-confuse the issue or confuse it further?

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Originally Posted by Red Pajama View Post

I disagree. I see Sirius as rakish, who's not afraid to break inconvient rules. He's the misunderstood baddie who's really a good guy.

Aragorn is the son of kings. In exile, but still kingly. I just never considered them to be the same "flavor" of character.
I agree about the kingly heroic nature of Aragorn, versus the rakish nature of Sirius...but I wonder if they had been swapped at birth, would they have turned out much differently? If Sirius had grown up with a consciousness of a noble heritage and responsibilities, instead of in the horrible Black family that disowned him, would he have been a noble person? ETA And what would a few years in Azkaban have done to Aragorn?

That said, I think the main reason I thought of this comparison was that they both assume similarly protective and nurturing roles in relationship to Harry/Frodo. But, no, you can't stretch the comparison very much farther than that.

I don't think any of the Order of the Phoenix could swap places with members of the Fellowship of the Ring easily -- hence the comedy of the idea for me.

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" Could he be Istari (wizard)? If so, he's not currently "practicing", as he's got his land, and Goldberry. Just a musing.
I don't think we really talked about what Tom Bombadil is....I really see him as a Green Man nature character or even as a diety, not the same kind of being as the wizards.

I have never yet read the non-LOTR writings. I assume that Gandalf is Istari? Is Istari a race or a calling? Is one born a wizard, or do wizards develop out of some kind of "muggle" stock, to further mix the LOTR/HP metaphors? Or are wizards not born, but but some kind of timeless immortal creatures that always existed in the same state?

Good point about Galadriel testing herself and passing the test, like other powerful characters opposed to Sauron do. In the end, she is a heroine of some dignity, representing the tragedy of her race. (But I still don't like her much)

I wonder if we can assume that Elrond had a moment of temptation and passing the test, offstage, while Frodo was at Rivendell? Or maybe his relationship with Aragorn or his previous personal knowledge of the Ring's history precluded any passing thought that he could take the Ring and wield it?
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#246 of 318 Old 02-08-2009, 01:35 AM
 
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(and now we're getting harry potter ads from google... gee, wonder why? )

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I always thought of the LOTR wizards as asexual ... Maybe the discipline requires celibacy...
yeah, i was going to come back and add that... i used to see him asexual... but somehow on this reading less so. mmm. maybe that's movie imagry creeping in, though...

in terms of celibacy, often in tales, yes... magicians/seers/etc only have power if they are either virgins or at least celibate... often robbed of their power by women who seduce them... now we're going to start tossing Merlin in the mix, then i will be truely happy. merlin, gandalf, and dumbledore all in one conversation... (then, if we really wanted to make me blissed out, we could talk about this guy.....)

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strider is so totally sirius black.
lol! ahhh, that was kinda what i was thinking of when i said harry needed strider... i was remembering snuffles (right?) in the cave in the woods....

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I suppose I was also thinking about literature classes I took many years ago where some fellow students got their kicks speculating about whether characters in classic literature were gay or not. Very immature stuff......
ahhh, yep. that would have been me, lol. immature nerds. ahh, those were the days. (ok, this is so OT, but kinda related... you ever watch those shows where they talk about possible medical conditions of historical figures? and how certain sicknesses may explain certain things?? <dorky smiley here>)

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THere is some hurtful and unfounded innuendo in the wizard newspapers about something improper in Harry and D's relationship though, isn't there? Been a while since I read the books.
yes, there are some hints of impropriety. part of why he distanced himself so much from harry (and hence all the troubles in OOTP... i remember getting so mad at dumbledore for that... sigh... maybe some parallels between that and gandalf not telling frodo more sooner??? mmmm.... see, we're not too far off topic! )

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I wasn't here when this book discussion started, so perhaps there's been a discussion already about the nature of Tom.
we did talk a bit about it! clay i think has more thoughts that she didnt share then.... at least she was seeming like she was hiding something.... i tend to think he's pre-wizard/not wizard categories....???

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... I wonder if we can assume that Elrond had a moment of temptation and passing the test, offstage, while Frodo was at Rivendell?
mmmm. i feel like elrond is "above" that... but i tend to feel like he's sort of the highest of the high in a certain sense. maybe that's unfounded.

i'm really starting to feel like a lot of my experiences and understanding of the book are tied in with not just the movies but with a lifetime of the mythology of the stories... it's hard to trace it all out, but it sure is fun! (yeah, ok, i've never done a book club or book discusion before--um, ok, outside school, lol--, so if that's a typical "this is why we do this" just throw something at me now, lol...)

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#247 of 318 Old 02-08-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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(then, if we really wanted to make me blissed out, we could talk about this guy.....)[/SIZE]

I would be happy to talk about him, but am not sure who he is? Is that Obi Wan? (I missed the last two Star Wars movies. I'm sure my sons will catch me up on them, when they are old enough.)
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#248 of 318 Old 02-08-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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lol! yep. ewan mcgregor as ben. jedi are wizards too....
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#249 of 318 Old 02-11-2009, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Book TWO Chapter Eight

Leaving Lorien


Lots of gifts (and rope!), a few more poems, more messing about in boats, and another small discussion on the nature of magic (I just love how magic confuses the Elves... sort of a statement about their worldview, maybe?).

Yet another near miss (for those who have finished the series and remember my obsessions with people showing up hours "too late" to meet up.

This is also the chapter where the "where next" stresses really start to shatter the Fellowship. There have been moments of tension leading up to this point... over the mountain or under? to far to the north or south? through the woods or over the plains? to Minis Tirith or Mordor? The Fellowship began by agreeing to follow Gandalf. Without his agreed upon leadership the unity simply can't hold...

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#250 of 318 Old 02-11-2009, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And on to other stuff...

The weather has resulted in lost power here, as well as sinus infections and random sick kiddos. My MIL and her sister arrive tomorrow morning, Laia's preschool winter fest (and my obligatory cupcakes and crafty gifts for kiddos) is Friday. My 9th wedding anniversary is also Friday. Valentines is Saturday. Yes. We have no bananas today! So this message may make little sense but I'll try to cram in everything I can recall!

Sirius Black- totally a "Faramir" style character in my mind. Faramir was...well... he was the reason I swore at the film. Loudly. In English, Elvish, Dwarvish, and Klingon. In the theatre. I am very fond of Faramir and the way the movie changed his essential nature drove me nuts. I still froth gently at the mouth when I think about it. But the book Faramir (Boromir's brother and seemingly unloved by their father Denethor) has a lot in common with Sirius. Their families don't understand or appreciate their natures, they do not recieve the love or nurturing they deserve. They find mentors outside their families, and mentors their families don't approve of. They both hold to a personal code that doesn't necessarily mesh with either the "good guys" or the "bad guys". They try to do their best, with what they are given, and for the greatest number of those who rely on them.

Wizards and relationships- well, they aren't human. The wizards were sent across the sea to offer guidance to the mortal races (the Valar had tried confronting Sauron directly and realized that this level of conflict would cause more harm than good, so they sent the Istari to help the mortals fight their own fight). Given that they were sent with a specific, and essentially militaristic, mission to "save the world" and given that compared to them even the Elves were brand new babes in the woods it's maybe not too surprising that they didn't have romantic relationships. I mean, there are no female Istari, even if they loved an Elvish woman they would be far older and live far longer in a different realm, and a relationship would necessarily mean leaving her unless she could play an equal role in challenging/guiding/inspiring resistance to Sauron.

Tom's nature is often debated... he isn't mortal, but he may not be Istari either. He could have been a maiar (like the wizards) who sort of struck out on his own instead of being sent on a mission. Tolkien did say that he saw Tom as the ultimate natural pacifist who is simply "opting out" even though if Sauron wins there wont be a place for Tom either.

Galadriel- I haven't seen the Narnia film so I don't have the White Witch bouncing in there too, but I've never been that fond of her.

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#251 of 318 Old 02-13-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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Thanks for the clarification on wizards. And I appreciate your frustration wtih the movie version of Faramir. I could see why it was done, but it's another way in which one must return to the origional to find out just how interesting a story it is. I loved the movies, but not all aspects translated to film well.

I'm surprised to see so much dislike for Galaderiel. The fellowship all seems so taken with her, especially Gimli, that as a reader I just went along with their fawning.

As the fellowship spends days on the river, I wonder if there is an milage approximate for the size of Middle Earth. In my mind, I'm always roughly trasposing western Europe on Middle Earth, but I doubt that's accurate in terms of size.

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#252 of 318 Old 02-14-2009, 12:32 AM
 
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"Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lorien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make....."

Sigh. If it weren't for MDC copyright rules, I'd happily sit and type out the whole `gift of the cloaks' passage because I don't think there is a passage in the whole LOTR that I enjoy more.

Happy Anniversary, Wombatclay! Hope you got done what you needed to and everyone is feeling better! I am also in a house of sick kiddos, but without all the extra obligations and with reliable power.

I see your point about Faramir.

I am dreadfully sorry to learn that Gandalf was never a baby. I think I'm with all the literary followers of Tolkein (like Feist, Rowling, Eddings, George Lucas [ aweysayl] etc. etc.) who usually seem to make their wizards essentially human in origin, but I'll forgive JRR that and more for the sake of Lorien.

I tend to think Middle Earth = Western Europe, too, Red Pajama, but I agree that there would be problems with the scale. Wombatclay pointed out near the start of the thread that the journey to Rivendell is accomplished in a couple of days by Bilbo's party in The Hobbit, where it stretches on for weeks in LOTR, so that inconsistency would need to be taken into account, too.


Ok, back to rereading this chapter. I've been lingering over the elfcloaks...
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#253 of 318 Old 02-18-2009, 03:05 PM
 
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Finished the chapter.

Typing with a sick and sleepy child on my lap. Feels almost like naking, which I miss doing.

Ok, Galadriel gives great presents. And she really had me with that lament she is chanting when we last see her. Reads a lot like the Old English poem The Wanderer, one of the saddest things ever written. And I bet if you read the elvish out loud it would even SOUND like the Anglo Saxon meter and rhythm, if not the language. She is a tragic figure when she represents the passing of the high elvish way of life.

But then we end with Gimli again, complaining that he has taken damage from visiting Lorien and meeting the Lady. He has been glamoured or charmed by G , even though she refused to take the One Ring and is diminished, that influence over Gimli hasn't passed. It causes him pain and changes who he is and I resent that a little on his behalf.

So Boromir traveled 400 leagues through the country they are going to but it took him many months (cant remember how many, 8?) ? So he averaged 3-4 miles a day? That isn't much. Must be rough country indeed.

Wonder if the Middle Earth distances would be more European in scale if there were real roads to travel on as there have been in Europe for centuries?
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#254 of 318 Old 02-18-2009, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Book TWO Chapter NINE

The Great River


More messing about in boats.

I love Frodo's comment about south=warm/merry (like Treebeard's comment about walking South), the re-emergence of Gollum the log, Legolas shooting the fell beast, the ongoing "conversation" between Aragorn and Boromir about where to go/what to do, and the rather hopeful thought that the quest is entering it's last chapter.

Part of me feels it's a place holder chapter getting the charaters from point A to point B, but looked at closely it's full of all sorts of detail and depth.

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#255 of 318 Old 02-18-2009, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Boromir's trip- don't forget it took him that long to reach Rivendell in large part because no one knew how to get there. He talks (at the council) about how he travelled all over the place, hunting down people who might know the way or following leads that didn't pan out.

He also couldn't take a route that went through Moria (I think he or Gandalf mentions that he had to go around the mountains since he, alone, couldn't go over or under them) or use the passage through Lorien/along the River (since Lorien is closed to mankind and the river flows the wrong way). Of course, he did have a horse and he didn't have to worry about Hobbits or the direct attention of the enemy once away from the combat zones of his homeland.

According to some of the random comments made by characters, there used to be roads and stronger trade routes (I think Bombadill goes on about that a bit, and the history of the Hobbits talks about them following the roads) but they've fallen out of repair and few people use them. Maybe similar to the Roman incursion into England? For a while you've got really spiffy roads and waystations and what-not and then over time (and with a changing political/military reality) things start to crumble a bit? So where there used to be a thriving route through Hollin and Moria now there isn't and the "Great Road" near the Shire is mostly overgrown and localized?

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#256 of 318 Old 02-19-2009, 12:47 PM
 
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clay beat me to it about roads. there's an awesome bit much later on about the old roads. i was obsessed with old roman stuff while i lived in england, so that really resonated with me. <that's the other map, along with my map of middle earth, that went missing. boo, boo, and more boo! sigh>

i lurve the "waiting" chapters. there's something so.... english... about sitting around and talking about journeying. anyone here read bill bryson's notes from a small island? the first chapter is all about talking about taking a journey, how long it will take, which route to go... so so english. dang. missing england even more now!
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#257 of 318 Old 02-19-2009, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll confess to having enjoyed the less-than-scholarly fantasy/adventure books by David Eddings (yes, all of them). In one there is a discussion between a group of active/knightly/battle hardened types and a stay-at-home-in-comfy-library researcher type... the knights need to find a certain artifact thought lost in an ancient battle and the researcher guy was able to basically "find" the item by correlating all the different documents and histories and myths about the incident. It's a neat chapter and one of the knightly characters actually comments on how emotionally invloved/satisfying this sort of "scholarly quest" was.

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#258 of 318 Old 02-19-2009, 03:21 PM
 
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there's something so.... english... about sitting around and talking about journeying. anyone here read bill bryson's notes from a small island? the first chapter is all about talking about taking a journey, how long it will take, which route to go... so so english. dang. missing england even more now!
no, to me it sounds like something so....stoned about doing that that's what i think is the problem with people who smoke so much doob, and why i have always hated it, even in the midst of all my other addictions-- people sit around talking about what they are going to do someday. and they never actually get around to doing it.

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#259 of 318 Old 02-19-2009, 05:27 PM
 
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heh, scholarly quests. ahhh.

maia, no, this isnt the "dude, and then, like, i'd climb to the top of the thing and it would be cool..." type of conversation....

this is more like: "oh, no... you dont take the M5, you'll sit in traffic for 10 days if you do that. you have to take the M15, but you cant take the left turn at Bushwaddle, you have to take the RIGHT... if you take the left, you can get to that great pub in Tinkleburry-- you know, the one that has the great local scrumpy.... but if you take the right, it puts you right back on the M12, just before your exit to Dunkledore, then you're only 5 minutes to the camp site-- the one with the big tree right by the bend of the river and if you follow that, you get to the pub with the great mushy peas....." THAT kind of talk about journeying..... very english.
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#260 of 318 Old 02-19-2009, 06:39 PM
 
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Will the babies NEVER get to sleep so I can leave the bedroom and turn the light on and read this chapter???

Anyway, if we're going to be talking about English traditions of travel writing, there is a classic book from the 18th century that is kind of the opposite of what you guys are talking about.

The narrator makes the impulsive decision to travel to France, packs, journeys, and is sitting down to dinner in Calais all in the first half of the first paragraph. This is making fun of the usual endless descriptions of traveling to Dover and stormy seasick crossings of the Channel. However, if any writer of the 18th century could be considered psychedelic, it'd be Sterne, though.

And, like so much wonderful stuff, it is available by free courtesy of Project Gutenburg:

Laurence Sterne, A Sentimental Journey to France and Italy
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#261 of 318 Old 02-20-2009, 03:48 PM
 
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maia, no, this isnt the "dude, and then, like, i'd climb to the top of the thing and it would be cool..." type of conversation....

this is more like: "oh, no... you dont take the M5, you'll sit in traffic for 10 days if you do that. you have to take the M15, but you cant take the left turn at Bushwaddle, you have to take the RIGHT... if you take the left, you can get to that great pub in Tinkleburry-- you know, the one that has the great local scrumpy.... but if you take the right, it puts you right back on the M12, just before your exit to Dunkledore, then you're only 5 minutes to the camp site-- the one with the big tree right by the bend of the river and if you follow that, you get to the pub with the great mushy peas....." THAT kind of talk about journeying..... very english.
oh...well, that is very different. i getcha!

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#262 of 318 Old 02-21-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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aubergine, should have known you'd have some cool bit to share about *traveling brits*, lol.... have to give that one a look! have you read the bill bryson? it'd be fun to have a comparative sense, lol....
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#263 of 318 Old 02-22-2009, 01:26 PM
 
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I haven't read the Bryson, actually --he's American, right? I'm highly specialized - I tended to stick to Brit authors before 1850. Gosh but I want a Kindle so I can download and read a LOT of really old travel books while on the road somewhere! Luggage space for books no longer a limiting factor! How wonderful! But I digress...well, I'm sure Tolkein would have read his share of old travel books, like pretty much any English writer of his generation.

The Fellowship is really missing Gandalf and the information and confidence and sense of direction (in many senses) that he gives them. There are lots of communication failures and breakdowns. Legolas shoots something in the air at night but he doesn't know what. Something's lurking around the camp
-- and they don't already have a watch set up and Frodo and Sam privately arrange a schedule? This is the most odd detail of all to me. When have they not set a watch at night in dangerous territory?

The most touching detail for me is Boromir biting his nails in anxiety.

Once again the one-chapter-a-week finds us at the right place in the wheel of the year. It is late winter, almost spring, in Middle Earth right now, too!

Strider's "Fear not!" as they passed by the sentinels of Numenor really startled me. I was expecting the angel Gabriel, or something. He has his tourist moments in this chapter too -- well, really special tourist moments, I guess, since he *is* the lost heir of Ilsidur, and all.

Those old statues give me an Ozymandias feel -- are they ironically grandiose reminders of lost glories, like in the old poem, or a promise of greatness to come? It is really interesting that the different members of the Fellowship react so strongly and differently to them.
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#264 of 318 Old 02-23-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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yeah, american, but lived in england a long time-- it's super fun reading, plus you get his perspective on england, then on europe, and then he moves back to the us... hilarious stuff.
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#265 of 318 Old 02-23-2009, 06:31 PM
 
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yeah, american, but lived in england a long time-- it's super fun reading, plus you get his perspective on england, then on europe, and then he moves back to the us... hilarious stuff.

Ok (really reaching to get back on topic here), so it would be like, if some of the expat elves over the sea had a child and that young elf grew up and went to live in Middle Earth for a long time and went back to the Havens and wrote epic poems (or whatever elves would write) about the manners and mores of the elves of Mirkwood? (or Lorien or Rivendell, but I couldn't resist the alliteration...
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#266 of 318 Old 02-25-2009, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Book TWO Chapter TEN

The Breaking of the Fellowship


A sad chapter (though not as sad as the next you... honestly this chapter at leasts ends a bit upbeat with friendship, humour, and hope). Frodo makes his choice though only Sam is ready for it. Boromir has a scene out of a saga, the hobbits tell it like it is, and Aragorn basically lets the choice go to Frodo.

(and can you imagine having to wait for the next chapter?)

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#267 of 318 Old 02-26-2009, 01:03 AM
 
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Ok (really reaching to get back on topic here), so it would be like, if some of the expat elves over the sea had a child and that young elf grew up and went to live in Middle Earth for a long time and went back to the Havens and wrote epic poems (or whatever elves would write) about the manners and mores of the elves of Mirkwood? (or Lorien or Rivendell, but I couldn't resist the alliteration...
love it! (and have fun with your lenten project, you!)
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#268 of 318 Old 02-27-2009, 12:54 PM
 
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...Frodo makes his choice though only Sam is ready for it....
i'm so struck by this... sam is so clued in to frodo. not only is he the only one who gets it, but he really gets it. he's amazingly intuitive... in some ways, more so than even our beloved wizard. really makes me love him. (i want to remember to come back to this, though, much later on in TT...)


so, clay, were they published seperately (FOTR & TT & ROTK)? how long was it before TT was out? was there a long break?
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#269 of 318 Old 02-27-2009, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not a huge gap, though I'd imagine the wait from Dec 54 to Oct 55 was a loooooong one for readers. That's a lot of time to spend locked outside a door.

Fellowship of the Ring- July 1954

Two Towers (there is some arguement over which two towers are being referenced. The movie went with Barad-dur and Orthanc. An illustration by Tolkien has Minas Morgul/Orthanc but a letter by Tolkien mentions Cirith Ungol/Orthanc. And then he gives Barad-dur/Minas Tirith as a logical pairing. You can play the matching game too with Barad-dur, Minis Morgul, the tower of Cirith Ungol, Orthanc, and Minis Tirith. And I have to say... personally I sort of think of the Tower overlooking the Sea, by the Havens, as the "opposite" of Barad-dur... it's a quiet tower, content in it's place and time, socio-culturally at the opposite end of the spectrum. And it's the tower the hobbits "come from" and "return to". But I'm just about the only person I know who adds that tower into the mix.)- December 1954
Return of the King (Tolkien wanted to call it "The War of the Ring" since RotK sort of gives away the ending )- October 1955

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#270 of 318 Old 03-01-2009, 03:58 PM
 
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Thanks Aweysayl! I'm back for the day. Will bump it up to 2 days online after Lent, I think, but I think the limit is really going to be healthy for me.

Been looking forward to posting on this chapter.

I love the image of Amon Hen, Hill of the Eye, a place designated for seeing far and wide. Never really registered it before, since I always focus on the terrible argument between Frodo and Boromir. The moment of intimidation always feels almost like a rape scene to me, because of the physical imbalance between the characters. Oh poor Frodo, betrayed by a trusted friend! Oh poor anguished Boromir and his remorse over the moment of madness!

There are a lot of images in literature of a prophetic figure standing up on a high place and viewing the world or communing with nature, of a man climbing to the top of the mountain looking for a connection with the divine -- going back to Moses getting the tablets on the mount and the Biblical temptation of Christ by Lucifer, probably, though there are lots of less Christian examples, too.

What a horror to be in a place apparently designated for this kind of experience and open to such knowledge of the world and to see such terrors and to feel the Eye of Sauron and his dark shadow swooping towards you with no sense of a comforting or protective power opposing the evil, just your own fear and will.....:

And the failure of Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship as everyone runs off in all directions "It was no good. They took no notice of him." Makes me think of trying to herd little boys when they have their own ideas, the panic of trying find a child temporarily lost in a strange place. Sure he's going to be king, but this is not the moment of his kingship, whether he is in the place of his royal ancestors or not.

Thank goodness for the hopeful moment of Sam finding Frodo and setting off together!

Time to dig out my Two Towers. I have never enjoyed reading it, and really don't know it well, because I've skimmed painful parts rather than reading them. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the movie version, and right now that narrative is much more in my head than the story Tolkein told. I'm excited -- feel like I'm looking forward to reading a book I've never read before!

I think The War of the Ring is a MUCH better title than Return of the King.
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