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#61 of 116 Old 11-24-2008, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Beckula View Post
Its so nice that you feel safe not putting your kids in a car seat. I hope for your sake and theirs you are never in an accident. I also hope I never see you riding around like that because I will call the police to report you, and I will not feel the least bit guilty or wrong for doing so. Good luck.
LOLOLOL!!!!!

Are you threatening someone over the internet? It's stuff like this that makes me think people are less concerned about some poor neglected baby's safety and more about feeling super self righteous.
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#62 of 116 Old 11-24-2008, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
and some babies cry every time they are in the seat wether they have just nursed or not. And some people with more than one child without access to public transportation must drive places from time to time, like doctors appointments, etc...

I had a child that would cry every. single. time he was in the car seat. Of course I severly limited our driving, but there were times it was unavoidable, and so, occasionally I would take him out of the seat and hold him or nurse him. I'm positive each of you do things with your children I wouldn't approve of
me too. twice. real late on the highway with no one around, still a looonnng way from home.

most of the time we stop.

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#63 of 116 Old 11-24-2008, 10:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
My dd was like this. We tried not to drive at all, but there are necessities and we don't have local public transportation. I never took her out of the seat whild driving, but it was awful. I can understand why you might (take the baby out). The stopping thing, which we frequently did, never solved anything. More than once I threatened to walk 5-10 miles home in a blizzard holding the baby inside my coat so she wouldn't scream all the way home. It was that hard to listen to, and stopping and calming her only worked until you put her back in the seat. So I understand where you're coming from. It felt like CIO to me (and CIO is something we would never do, including lesser forms of sleep training). It certainly was the same message to my dd: "You are crying hysterically and need me to hold you. I am within proximity but I am intentionally not meeting your needs." Really, truly agonizing.
i agree.

and i also have found myself just wishing i could walk the rest of the way home. my husband would never go for it. he'd rather me just take the baby out of the carseat, he'll slow down and drive cautiously and be able to drive ten BAZILLION times better anyway because he's not being wracked by a screaming baby.

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#64 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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: I didn't realize this would cause such a hot debate... :

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Originally Posted by AbbieB View Post
I'm going to stir the pot a bit...

I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.

I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves. If someone chooses to do something other than what popular opinion has decided to be the right thing it does not make them ignorant, stupid, careless, or a bad person.

Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?

Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.

FTR: My kids are buckled in 99.9% of the time. DD is 5 and has a car seat still. She buckles herself. DS is 15 months and rear facing still. Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.

Let the flaming begin.
Bolding mine. I was not trying to be judgemental. I am simply concerned. We live in a small town, it's not a "my baby's crying, I'm nursing/holding/swaddling to keep them comforted. (Even though that's not something *I* personally would do.) I see the same people over and over, *not* having their child in any kind of restraint, sometimes hanging halfway out the windows/climbing all around/etc. I worry especially because people here drive worse than in any other place I've ever been, and I worry.

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Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom View Post
I think judging peole in other countries and cultures by American standards/laws is wrong.

I suspect many of us have failed to buckle seat belts or put the seat down sideways for a second to do something and then forgotten to turn it correctly and buckle it. Sleep deprivation can make the best memories into sieves. And many children can buckle their own seats. There are situations where people are making poor choices, but its really hard to tell about the exact situation you are looking at many times. I might consider a call for someone that I see frequently who I know is routinely making poor car safety decisions. But other than that, IMHO, you don't know the situation and its not anyone's business.
We live in a small town, and I *do* see the same people doing that over and over.

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Originally Posted by Cinder View Post
To me, my kids lives are more important than them being happy for those few minutes when I find somewhere safe to stop. Now, there was a 3 hour road trip from my mom back to our house when Kincaid was 4 months old that actually took us almost 8 hours, cause we could only drive 15 minutes before he was screaming again, we'd get off at the next exit, nurse him and calm him down, then put him back in his seat again and drive for another 15 minutes, but there is never a point that I would do something as unsafe as driving with an unrestrained child, I would never ever forgive myself if something happened, their lives are worth more than that to me, much more than that.
: When DD was 10 months old, we went on a roadtrip that in usual circumstances would take 14 hours (stopping every couple hours for gas/stretch/potty/etc.). DD did *not* like riding in her seat, so it took us almost 20 hours to get there, because we kept having to stop to calm her.

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Originally Posted by mytwogirls View Post
Well I don't believe it is a "holier than thou" attitude at all. This poster was shocked that she saw children unrestrained in a moving vehicle. No one is arguing that driving is a risk, hell walking outside is dangerous in some areas of the world, but what I, and some here as well, don't understand is WHY parents don't buckle their children? WHY not try to help prevent an accident. You don't know when an accident might happen. Today. Tomorrow. Hopefully never. It just seems so senseless not to buckle your child in a safety seat I think. Not a holier than thou attitude at all.
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#65 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 02:51 AM
 
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i had an old friend that buckeld the seat but not the baby! It breaks my heart to think of what would happen if the got in even a fender bender.

E married to "G" 9/06 mama to "A" 6/07 "D" 3/09 "A" due mid sept

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#66 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lifeguard View Post
We see it ALL the time down here. And scarier still are the people who bring their children& eve young babies on their motorcycles with no helmets. ....
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Originally Posted by Shami View Post
Hope the op doesn't mind me somewhat hijacking

I'm going to Sri Lanka for three weeks. My MIL told me not to bother bringing the carseat because it is not necessary to use in Sri Lanka. I was totally bummed by this. My mom says "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". My mom also told me that I used to stand in the middle of the buckets seats up front in her VW bug back in the early 70's. She thinks it's a small percentage of a risk and not to worry.

What do you momma's think?
I would take the carseat anyway and let everyone laugh at you. I would subscribe to the traditions of the culture only in the cases that do not put my Baby at unnecessary risk, however small its percentage.
Take the carseat.

I am in Rome, and although there are certainly Mammas here that would never put their bambino in a car unrestrained, too often I see babies being held, toddlers and kids scampering about in the back and even front seats with no seat belts. I see this at least once a day, minimum. It makes me very sad.
People will carry their kids on their motercycles, but they (almost) always have helmets. (Except in Napoli and other areas of southern Italy.)

People here always question why Eloisa's car-seat is still RF when she is already over a year old. I have to explain that it is so much safer for her to be RF, people here .just.don't.know. I don't care if they think I'm odd to keep my LO RF, it's best for her. -- Especially here in Rome, the city of scary drivers!


(My parents used to put my playpen in the back of our big old Plymouth station-wagon and I was back there, standing up, hanging onto the side swaying back and forth, happy as a clam. We drove San Francisco to Portland, Oregon very often like this, in the days before car-seats (I was born in 1967) Yes, I am fine, and many many of us Mammas who were left unrestrained in car during those days are fine, but we just don't know how many babies were injured or died because of this ignorance.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPotato View Post
....I would never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle because I love her-- I want her alive more than I want her happy at every moment. While I strive for both safety and happiness, safety comes first. I'm glad that she'll be alive to forgive me for the inconvenience.
:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pastelsummer View Post
i had an old friend that buckeld the seat but not the baby! It breaks my heart to think of what would happen if the got in even a fender bender.
: I did this exactly ONCE and I was completely mortified to realize that I had driven 20 miles and on the highway without having buckled her in. Eloisa was at work with me, she fell asleep and I put her into her bucket but didn't snap the strap -- assuming I'd do it once I put her in the car when it was time to go -- and then covered her with a blanket. Because of the blanket I didn't realize that I forgot to latch her strap. We were very fortunate that nothing happened, and I thank my lucky stars that all was OK. She was about 4 or 5 months at the time.



FWIW, I honestly don't care if people think that I am "Holier than Thou" if I want to keep my baby safe and I think that any person, babe or grown-up, traveling in a car should wear a seat belt. I will be judgmental if Kids are not in carseats. So there! (Where is the smug smilie? LOL)

-- Miss 1928 -- and Opera Singing Mamma to Eloisa -- 12 Feb 2007
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#67 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
LOLOLOL!!!!!

Are you threatening someone over the internet? It's stuff like this that makes me think people are less concerned about some poor neglected baby's safety and more about feeling super self righteous.
I will also call the police. Not because I feel self-righteous, but because I'm concerned for that baby's health and well-being. If that car goes on down the road and gets into an impact and baby goes flying through the windshield and dies, I will feel horrible that I didn't call the police to stop that from happening. It's a law for a reason. If you have no regard for your child's safety, rest assured that there are people out there that do.
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#68 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:35 AM
 
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I agree. By calling the police, they are showing they care. If they just wanted to feel self righteous, they would just act smug and not do a thing.

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#69 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kalimay View Post
An infant taken out of their seat for a few minutes would also statistically have a "VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death."

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Go to the report page and look at the fatality rate for restrained and unrestrained passengers in the car, you might be surprised.
That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.

I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.

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#70 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:46 AM
 
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While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.
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#71 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:47 AM
 
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These threads disturb me. I have only seen one questionable incident around here, a FF'ing seat had the flipper thing underneath in the wrong position so it was reclined too far.
I know that it was wrong because it's the same carseat DS1 has.


Hmmm no, there was one other incident, my neice and nefew said their dad let them ride in the work truck, in the front seat. There are no other seats, it is not insured for anyone but company employees, there is only one passenger seat and there are airbags. Which means two small children shared a front seat without a seatbelt. They were 3 and 6 at the time. Fortunately they told their grandparents who happen to own the business that practice stopped quite quickly.

It's just appalling to hear these stories, I can't believe how ignorant some people still are.

DH and I - totally winging life with our four children, DS1 (6.5yrs), DS2 (5yrs), DD (3yrs) and DS3 (1)!

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#72 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 11:50 AM
 
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omg thats crazy! why dont you call the cops?
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#73 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amandaleigh37 View Post
That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.

I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.
YES to this! Do you know why they are called "accidents"? Because we don't know WHEN they will happen! Call it holier than thou, self-centered or whatever but most young children cannot say "Hey ma buckle me in" and then god forbid, they DIE in an accident, I could not live with myself knowing full well that I would have rather had a crying, screaming child in my car (and I can pull over to comfort them !!!!!!) than making funeral arrangements. Like the ads on tv say "It only take a split second to buckle a child and it only takes a split second to get into an auto accident."

(stepping down from soapbox......)
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#74 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 02:34 PM
 
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Moving to Family Safety

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#75 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 03:06 PM
 
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Luckily, I have never noticed this!!!

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                        and wonderful little man (12/1/10)

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#76 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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Not flaming you, but asking this sincerely: What would a situation be where stopping is "not an option"?
Here was my situation. Let me preface this by saying that I have only done this once and would never do it again if I had the choice. I am a very loving mother and I don’t deserve to have the police take my child away as some on this thread think

DS was a car hater and a screamer anytime he got in a car seat. We had a trip to Canada when he was 4 months old over Christmas. At the last minute, my parents could not pick us up from the airport so my dad paid for the bus ticket and we had exactly 20 minutes from the time the plane landed till the bus left. The bus ride was 3.5 hours. So after 3 hours of flying and no break, he gets put yet again into his car seat. He was SCREAMING and I mean SCREAMING. After an hour I was in tears and about 4 people on the bus were visibly upset and yelling at me. It was getting out of control and I made the decision to take him out of the car seat Judge me if you want but I feel in that situation the risk of us getting into an accident was far less likely than someone getting physical with us from frustrations over a screaming baby.
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#77 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 05:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kalimay View Post
An infant taken out of their seat for a few minutes would also statistically have a "VERY SMALL risk of serious injury or death."

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Go to the report page and look at the fatality rate for restrained and unrestrained passengers in the car, you might be surprised.
It is interesting. But it in no way argues that passenger restraints are not extremely helpful in reducing injuries and fatalities in motor vehicle accidents. These statistics are for fatal accidents only. Where are the statistics for the accidents that only resulted in injury? or for those which only result in property damage. From these data you link to, there is no information on how many restrained individuals were injured or spared injury instead of killed.

In the report, it states that for fatalities of passengers, over 50% were restrained and under 50% were not. However, in the whole population of vehicle passengers, over 50% are using restraints. IOW, because more passengers use restraints than do not, more restrained passengers die in fatal crashes.

Finally, something I found interesting is the breakdown by age. More restrained babies, young children and elderly people are killed than young and middle-aged adults. In other words, the majority of fatalities for child passengers and elderly passengers were restrained. The majority of fatalities for adults were unrestrained. I think this reflects the physical vulnerability of the populations. Children and the elderly are more likely to die in a serious crash even if they are restrained.

On another note, I have a very intelligent friend who really downplays the importance of carseats because of that stupid Freakonomics book. I think it's because it's the first thing she had ever read about car seats (before she had children). She told me that the point of the article/chapter is that carseats make little difference because they are so often used incorrectly. But since she has that knowledge she should be able to see the importance of using the carseat correctly and removing that particular "disadvantage" of carseat use. It drives me crazy.
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#78 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:00 PM
 
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#79 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:05 PM
 
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I am lucky to say that I have never seen that.
Me neither.
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#80 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:18 PM
 
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I will also call the police. Not because I feel self-righteous, but because I'm concerned for that baby's health and well-being. If that car goes on down the road and gets into an impact and baby goes flying through the windshield and dies, I will feel horrible that I didn't call the police to stop that from happening. It's a law for a reason. If you have no regard for your child's safety, rest assured that there are people out there that do.
sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine
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#81 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.
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#82 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:27 PM
 
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DS was a car hater and a screamer anytime he got in a car seat. We had a trip to Canada when he was 4 months old over Christmas. At the last minute, my parents could not pick us up from the airport so my dad paid for the bus ticket and we had exactly 20 minutes from the time the plane landed till the bus left. The bus ride was 3.5 hours. So after 3 hours of flying and no break, he gets put yet again into his car seat. He was SCREAMING and I mean SCREAMING. After an hour I was in tears and about 4 people on the bus were visibly upset and yelling at me. It was getting out of control and I made the decision to take him out of the car seat Judge me if you want but I feel in that situation the risk of us getting into an accident was far less likely than someone getting physical with us from frustrations over a screaming baby.
What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.

I see your situation as different though because it was a BUS. Different rules on buses and a bus has different dynamics in an accident due to its size, weight and design. And most buses don't have a way to install a car seat. Heck, most buses don't even have seat belts for adult passengers! Not saying kids wouldn't be safer in their seat, installed, just that it's not possible in many buses.

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#83 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine
I'm not sure it's subjective. It has been proven that being unrestrained in a vehicle increases your chance of injury and death, which is why it is law in many places (I realize there are countries with no seat belt laws). Unassisted childbirth and not vaccinating is NOT illegal as there isn't the data or the "crash tests" to prove it's unsafe.

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#84 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:34 PM
 
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Yikes! Great videos but scary!

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Oh my God....women are the COWS of PEOPLE!! --Reese, Malcolm in the Middle
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#85 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:37 PM
 
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I'm not advocating the practice, but nursing an unrestrained child is not illegal everywhere. It's currently legal in Michigan to take a child out of their restraints in a moving car to nurse. Just a little FYI for those of you who call the police. Some folks have challenged this, but it's on the books, so it's not illegal.
http://cns.jrn.msu.edu/articles/2003...STFEEDING.html
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...SFA-0882-A.pdf
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#86 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:40 PM
 
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the situation we were in when it WAS IMPOSSIBLE or at least, for all intents and purposes, impossible to stop, was when we were following my in-laws far from home. cell phone was dead from a long weekend. baby was screaming...only one option.

the other time was just because it was VERY late and we didn't want to stop because we didn't want to get home all late.

living light husband wife loving life two sons to birth for our light loving earth. :
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#87 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 06:41 PM
 
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Yikes! Great videos but scary!
Apparently not scary enough

CPST & mom

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#88 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 07:02 PM
 
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While a car seat will certantly increase the chances of survival is not a magic bubble, children die in Britax seats too, driving is a risk, is the #1 killer of children restrained and unrestrained, If you want to take that chance for yourself fine, but if I see you driving with a kid in the car I´m calling the cops there is too much of a risk.
So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.
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#89 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 07:19 PM
 
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That means nothing. IF an accident happened (sure it's not very likely, but IF it did) I want my child in a car seat. The risk is too big to do otherwise. If you feel differently, and want to take that risk, that's your own choice.

It's different if an adult chooses not to wear a seat belt. A child has no choice. They are only as safe as WE make them.

I completely understand those moments on long trips where you might do this and say "yeah, it wasn't safe, but it's what we did in that moment"... whatever. But I am honestly shocked that people are arguing that it's NOT unsafe to do. I mean really.
It's not different for an adult either. An unrestrained adult becomes a projectile that can injure/kill every other person in the car.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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#90 of 116 Old 11-25-2008, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TechnoGranola View Post
What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.
Shuttle buses are more like giant vans with seatbelts for all passengers.
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