Sad Thing I See All the Time - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-25-2008, 08:27 PM
 
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So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.
Um, can I ask if any child's died in a carseat when the car was traveling at city speeds? Because I know kids have died when in "minor" accidents when unrestrained. Pretty sure it's not being properly restrained that makes things like "just a quick trip to the park" "less than a mile drive to the store" dangerous.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.


I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?

Those two things aren't even in the same galaxy of similarity. There is inherent risk in everything. Every. Single. Thing. Eating, sleeping, taking a bath, going for a walk, riding in a wagon, reading a book...LIVING in and of itself is the biggest risk to life. To say that people who properly restrain their child in a car and drive them to a park is the SAME as not restraining them at all simply because they each carry risk is simply rediculous. That is like saying that since a child could choke on ANY piece of food, you might as well just go ahead and feed your 9 month-old whole grapes. And hey, since your child could die of SIDS no matter what you do, just go ahead and put a big, thick down comfortor and a few dozen stuffed animals in your newborn's crib.

I don't get it.

The job of parents is not to remove all risk from our child's life...it is to educate ourselves and use that knowledge to DECREASE risk as much as possible. Ask any parent who has lost a child...sometimes no matter what you do, it isn't enough. But to do nothing based on that thought process is negligent.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:39 PM
 
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Shuttle buses are more like giant vans with seatbelts for all passengers.
Okay. I guess I always think of "bus" as in a big, long city bus or a Greyhound bus!

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Old 11-25-2008, 08:39 PM
 
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These threads disturb me. I have only seen one questionable incident around here, a FF'ing seat had the flipper thing underneath in the wrong position so it was reclined too far.
I know that it was wrong because it's the same carseat DS1 has.
Some carseat manufacturers allow the recline foot to be in the up position while forward-facing to a certain weight limit.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:44 PM
 
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I have held my crying baby in my arms in a moving car, and I do not see my self as a bad parent.
Well, so have I . . . but only because I was escaping racists who threatened to bash her "half breed" head in....

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I think that each parent needs to make safety decisions for themselves.
Sure, within reason based on accurate & comprehensive information. This being that motor vehicle crashes are the #1 cause of death for all kids.

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Why is it OK to be so judgmental on this topic?
The fact that it's children's LIVES at stake, not merely a scraped knee or such like.

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Those of us that do not vaccinate or co sleep are seen by many mainstreamers as ignorant parents needlessly endangering our kids lives. But that does not mean that we are.
Vax'ing & carseats are 2 *completely* separate issues.

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Both have been held by me and nursed on the rare occasion that they needed it NOW and stopping was not an option.
How is it ever not possible to exit the road & find somewhere to stop? I've lived in very rural + very cosmopolitan areas & have visited other countries, too. My daughter was exclusively BF'd for 12 months without ever being removed from her carseat unless the vehicle was in park.

Because I also grew up watching my father treat the kids who don't die. Neither is an option I'm willing to risk. I guess it's between you & whatever higher power you might believe in, but I would never forgive myself if I chose that risk knowing the consequences.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:49 PM
 
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Yes some crashes are unsurvivable, but a RF seat can reduce that risk about 75%

CORRECT USE is the key. Actually being buckled up inside the carseat is a pretty big part of correct use.

Legislators might say it's legal for babies to be removed for their seats for nursing, but they don't control the laws of PHYSICS nor does breastmilk make an infant immune to the laws of physics.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:51 PM
 
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I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?
I am not defending the behavior. I am trying to understand how people can be so judgmental when likely they themselves are putting their child at risk by driving with them.
I wonder if the car seats give a sense of inflated security. Yes, your kids are much safer in the car seat but guess what, compared to the relative risk of other dangers driving in the car is still huge risk.

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Um, can I ask if any child's died in a carseat when the car was traveling at city speeds? Because I know kids have died when in "minor" accidents when unrestrained. Pretty sure it's not being properly restrained that makes things like "just a quick trip to the park" "less than a mile drive to the store" dangerous.
Yes, children can and have died in car seats when the car was traveling at city speeds.
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:04 PM
 
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It's not different for an adult either. An unrestrained adult becomes a projectile that can injure/kill every other person in the car.
Correct.

Man killed by unrestrained passenger (news article)
http://www.mac.sa.gov.au/popup/tv_campaign.php?id=65 (warning: disturbing commercial)

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Old 11-25-2008, 09:19 PM
 
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So for the people who say OMG I would never in a million years put my child at risk by: letting them ride unrestrained, turning them forward facing when they are only 1, putting them in a booster when they are four, I am curious if you are aware of the danger you are putting them in every time you drive them somewhere in the car. If you are aware of the risk and you still chose to drive your kid to the park I don't understand how you can be so sanctimonious.
I simply cannot follow your argument. Yes, riding in the car is one of the most dangerous things our kids do. I think we all understand the risk. Since it is dangerous, we should make every effort to make those rides as safe as possible. When you choose not to correctly restrain a child, you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce their risk of injury or death.

What exactly are you arguing? That we should all just stay home? That we shouldn't ride in cars? That car seat safety is pointless because riding in a car is dangerous? I just can't figure out exactly what our point is.
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:46 PM
 
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sorry - its all subjective. there are people who would claim unassisted childbirth is having no regard for your child's safety. or not vaccinating. or not supplementing with formula when a doctor says to. How about - you worry about your child and I'll worry about mine


I'll still call the cops whenever I see a child unrestrained in a car.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:19 PM
 
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When I was a little girl, I remember passing a relatively minor one-car accident on a quiet road. All I saw was a smashed up car and someone sitting on the ground with their head in their hands.

When we got home, we found out that someone had been holding a baby and it went through the windshield and died.

That has always stayed with me.

My husband needed to be educated about this when we had our daughter. He thought it would be safer to hold her on the way home than use the bucket seat because she was so little.

He's not a bad person, just came from a country where that was common thinking. What makes him a good parent is that he adjusted his practice when he learned the facts.

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Old 11-25-2008, 11:09 PM
 
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the situation we were in when it WAS IMPOSSIBLE or at least, for all intents and purposes, impossible to stop, was when we were following my in-laws far from home. cell phone was dead from a long weekend. baby was screaming...only one option.

the other time was just because it was VERY late and we didn't want to stop because we didn't want to get home all late.
How is it "IMPOSSIBLE" to stop because you are following someone?

Perhaps at the time you thought it was the most time-efficient choice, whatever, that's your decision. But it was certainly not impossible for you to stop. Inconvenient, maybe. But you did have other options. Blink your lights so they'd see you as you pulled over, pass them & then pull over so they'd see you... or just pull over & hope they'd wait for you up ahead. Pull over & use a pay phone to call them while you cared for the baby. Lots of options. Not impossible.

I think that's what's bothering me most about this thread. We all take risks every day, that we are constantly weighing and making choices about. It's one thing to say "I made this choice in this circumstance and it was the best move at the time", sure some of us may disagree. But it's an entirely different thing to say that you had no other choice.

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Old 11-26-2008, 01:51 AM
 
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I simply cannot follow your argument. Yes, riding in the car is one of the most dangerous things our kids do. I think we all understand the risk. Since it is dangerous, we should make every effort to make those rides as safe as possible. When you choose not to correctly restrain a child, you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce their risk of injury or death.
I am not sure we all do understand the risk and that I think is my point. A poster a few posts back wondered if any child had ever died in their carseat riding a city speeds. I think there is a belief that if your child is properly restrained they are safe in the car. They are not. By putting you child in the car at all "you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce the risk of injury or death."

So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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: I wish I hadn't ever posted this I know people may not always agree, but can't we do it without insulting other people? I wasn't trying to start arguments, I don't like conflict... I was just concerned about the children.

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Old 11-26-2008, 02:59 AM
 
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What got me was the other day I saw a woman leaving the store I work at, put her daughter in the installed seat, and not bother to buckle it before she closed the door and drove away. I just didn't understand. She's already in the seat, how long does it take to buckle her?
I've never seen this of someone else, but I did it! I just totally spaced! We were halfway home and DS proclaims, "MOM YOU DIDN'T STRAP ME IN!" Thankfully, he was old enough to tell me. I pulled over right away. Since, he is so so so vigilant about it. He gets in by himself now, but if I don't immediately strap him in (I'm putting something in the truck say), he is already reminding me LOUDLY. I haven't forgotten since (or before) that day, but I was so mad at myself. I'm OCD and this is one of those things I tend to do and check and check to see if I've done it. Must have been in la la land that day!

Mama, if you see someone do it again, mention it to them. They might have just spaced like me!

OP, I'm so shocked... I've never seen any violations of this nature. I can't imagine plopping the seat in like a bag of groceries like that. Occasionally, I see that someone has the bucket strapped in alright, but they haven't pushed the carry handle back, which I'm fairly certain you're supposed to do.


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Old 11-26-2008, 03:10 AM
 
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Late to this but, I've breastfed a restrained infant with no problem, well, I was a tad uncomfortable but hey. I'm a parent, what else is new?

For the 4 year old in boosters...my 4 year old is the size of a 6/7 year old. And in a booster (she just didn't fit in the regular seat anymore). Meh. At least she's restrained.

She also has a hysterical fit if anyone in the car isn't belted so I think she's well trained.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:27 AM
 
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What kind of bus were you on in Canada that had the capability to install a car seat? I've taken the bus a few times, and just never had a bus with that capability.

I see your situation as different though because it was a BUS. Different rules on buses and a bus has different dynamics in an accident due to its size, weight and design. And most buses don't have a way to install a car seat. Heck, most buses don't even have seat belts for adult passengers! Not saying kids wouldn't be safer in their seat, installed, just that it's not possible in many buses.
Robert Q from Detroit and all seats had seat belts. They actually provide the car seat. I guess it's more of a van that sits around 16 people if I remember correctly. But yes, bus is a different situation. I'm just giving an example of where I rode for 2 hours with DS in my arms and it's not always black and white as some people are hinting at on this thread
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:42 AM
 
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Yes, children can and have died in car seats when the car was traveling at city speeds.
Okay. Now, how many of those involved parents lying about using the car seat correctly?
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:05 PM
 
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I think there is a belief that if your child is properly restrained they are safe in the car. They are not. By putting you child in the car at all "you are not doing all that you can do to keep your child safe or reduce the risk of injury or death."

So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.

You are taking the words of many posters and twisting them. I don't think you are even misunderstanding what people are saying, but intentionally doing this to antagonize.

You cannot see the difference between someone going in a vehicle while making every effort possible to keep their child as safe as they can (ie - properly using a child restraint EVERY time), and the inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place ?

No - I'm sure you CAN see the difference, but you simply choose to stir the pot instead.

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Old 11-26-2008, 01:00 PM
 
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...Occasionally, I see that someone has the bucket strapped in alright, but they haven't pushed the carry handle back, which I'm fairly certain you're supposed to do.
Em
Depends on the model. I've noticed that some want the carry handle up and some want it down while being used while driving.



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Originally Posted by MamieCole View Post


I'm shocked at how many people on this thread are defending this behavior.

Really? You think that properly restraining a child in the correct position in the backseat of a car and driving ANYWHERE equates with purposefully choosing to leave a child unrestrained? People really believe that?

Those two things aren't even in the same galaxy of similarity. There is inherent risk in everything. Every. Single. Thing. Eating, sleeping, taking a bath, going for a walk, riding in a wagon, reading a book...LIVING in and of itself is the biggest risk to life. To say that people who properly restrain their child in a car and drive them to a park is the SAME as not restraining them at all simply because they each carry risk is simply rediculous. That is like saying that since a child could choke on ANY piece of food, you might as well just go ahead and feed your 9 month-old whole grapes. And hey, since your child could die of SIDS no matter what you do, just go ahead and put a big, thick down comfortor and a few dozen stuffed animals in your newborn's crib.

I don't get it.

The job of parents is not to remove all risk from our child's life...it is to educate ourselves and use that knowledge to DECREASE risk as much as possible. Ask any parent who has lost a child...sometimes no matter what you do, it isn't enough. But to do nothing based on that thought process is negligent.





--I'll probably get a tomato thrown at me for saying this:
The cynic in me wants to call parents who CHOOSE not to buckle their kids in on a regular basis, "Evolution In Action."

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Old 11-26-2008, 02:29 PM
 
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Late to this but, I've breastfed a restrained infant with no problem, well, I was a tad uncomfortable but hey. I'm a parent, what else is new?
I did that too...but then a few years ago (when my 4 1/2 year old was a newborn) LLL made a big deal about how unsafe this is. If you were in an accident your weight plus the force of the accident would crush your baby.

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Old 11-26-2008, 02:30 PM
 
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So when people say they could never forgive themselves if they took their baby out to nurse them and they had an accident I guess I wonder if they would be feel the same way if they had an accident driving on some totally unnecessary trip, say to the park.

I am not even responding to the OP. She was bothered by a child who wasn't buckled in. I get that. What I don't get is some of the other posters who say that they would never risk their child's life, say by taking them out of their seat to nurse them. You are risking their life putting them in the car at all and I think you should tone done the judgment because it seems kind of hypocritical.
It would be easier to forgive yourself cause you did everything possible to keep your kid safe. I still just can't even fathom how you are comparing the two at all.

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Old 11-26-2008, 02:35 PM
 
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Ok, I'm opening this thread back up.

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Old 11-30-2008, 06:05 PM
 
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I'll still call the cops whenever I see a child unrestrained in a car.
thank goodness for tinted windows - they help nosy people mind their own business.
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Old 11-30-2008, 07:21 PM
 
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It would be easier to forgive yourself cause you did everything possible to keep your kid safe. I still just can't even fathom how you are comparing the two at all.
I guess I don't understand why the two are not comparable, because when I read your first sentence I see a contradiction. If you were doing "everything possible to keep your kid safe" you would not be putting them in the car for unnecessary trips.


Quote:
You are taking the words of many posters and twisting them. I don't think you are even misunderstanding what people are saying, but intentionally doing this to antagonize.

You cannot see the difference between someone going in a vehicle while making every effort possible to keep their child as safe as they can (ie - properly using a child restraint EVERY time), and the inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place ?
Could you let me know what it is you think I am twisting or misunderstanding?
I think collectively we accept the "inherent risk of going in a vehicle in the first place" but I wonder about accepting this risk when it comes to our own children. Again I know children are safer in their carseats but to believe they are safe is wrong.
I am not trying to antagonize. In my mind the comparison between taking a screaming infant out of their seat to console them and driving your restrained kids on unnecessary trips is reasonable. Maybe you could explain why you think it is not?
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:47 AM
 
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I did that too...but then a few years ago (when my 4 1/2 year old was a newborn) LLL made a big deal about how unsafe this is. If you were in an accident your weight plus the force of the accident would crush your baby.
i have heard this too...on a thread on another forum. at least with the infant car seat we are using currently for ds2, i'm not so sure it would be possible because of how high the sides of the carseat are.. i have to crush my ribs to get my breast over ds2's mouth for him to nurse. i guess that's not very clear...i'm not saying it's not possible, i just don't see how it would be possible in our case. i thought about it and lurched forward to see if i would crush ds2 but i think this wouldn't happen. instead, i would probably break my ribs and possibly puncture a lung, i think, but would only hit the side of the carseat...

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