Flying, carseats, lap children -- What's the big deal? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 102 Old 06-29-2009, 07:35 PM
 
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Turbulence hasn't ever been a huge issue in any of the flights I've taken (with and w/o kids and babies). (I know there are exceptions, but I've had pretty easy flights.)

I haven't read past the first page, but I just wanted to respond to one thing you said.

Think of it this way. I have never been in a car accident. I'm lucky, according to the statistics. They happen every day, every where. They have have happened to many, many people here. They can be lethal. You say you've never experienced turbulence. You are lucky. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen frequently, nor that it doesn't significantly injure people, especially small, lightweight children.

I could never stand over my child in the PICU *knowing* that there was something I could have done to prevent this severe injury. Lugging the pain in the butt, back wrenching, sweat inducing carseat through the airport chasing toddlers and carrying infants is hard. I get that. It would be a heck of a lot harder to stand over your child's bed in the PICU or worse, over his grave, simply because it was too much of an ordeal.
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#92 of 102 Old 06-29-2009, 08:08 PM
 
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I'd be really surprised to find someone who insisted on using a carseat on a plane, but FF'd their kid at 12 months. I think the first statement you made is correct, but that there's not very much overlap between these two groups.
I FF my DD at 12 months of course I did so becaue I thought I was sosposed to I had no idea about extended rear facing actually I thought it was dangerous to keep them rear facing after the 20lb thing I used a carseat on an airplane till my DD was 5 I did make the mistake of not once thinking she'd be fine just sitting. She spent the entire flight screaming I'm NOT SAFE MAMA

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#93 of 102 Old 06-30-2009, 07:27 PM
 
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All data, statistics and real life experience clearly show that flying with a child is the safest thing a parent can do. It's almost unheard of to have any child injured by turbulence and almost impossible to find a child which was saved purely by a car seat on a plane. Priority should be on using a car seat on the ground at destination. Some more info about flying and car seats can be found over at CarSeat.se

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#94 of 102 Old 07-01-2009, 03:57 AM
 
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All data, statistics and real life experience clearly show that flying with a child is the safest thing a parent can do. It's almost unheard of to have any child injured by turbulence and almost impossible to find a child which was saved purely by a car seat on a plane. Priority should be on using a car seat on the ground at destination. Some more info about flying and car seats can be found over at CarSeat.se
Totally untrue. Children are hurt in turbulence all the time and there are many instances where children would have survived if they had been in a car seat. There was recently a small airplane that went down and the only survivor was a 3 year old in her car seat. Don't tell me she would have survived if she had been loose in someone's lap.

Your method of argument is simply to keep telling other poster that they are wrong, without any proof. Also, mixing this issue up with extended rear facing is just illogical.

If using a car seat on the ground is so important, why are you promoting checking them as luggage? What are the parents supposed to do when their seat is damaged or sent to the wrong city? Wait at the airport a day or two waiting for it to arrive? Also, how do you really know that your own children's car seats weren't crushed under a few hundred kilos of other people's bags in the hold? Or tossed around on the tarmac? The damage wouldn't necessarily be visable.

Just because your luggage was never lost doesn't mean it never happens. Using a car seat on the plane is safer than having a child on your lap or in an adult seat belt. End of story. Stop beating a dead horse!
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#95 of 102 Old 07-01-2009, 04:10 AM
 
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It's almost unheard of to have any child injured by turbulence and almost impossible to find a child which was saved purely by a car seat on a plane.
The first half of that sentence is just wrong and the second half does not make sense.

My husband is a pilot, so we've never flown without our baby/toddler being in their car seat. But it's not only his job that influences us. Many years ago, my husband's toddler cousin was flying on his Aunt's lap and was crushed by her body in a plane crash. Most people on the plane lived, including my husband's aunt and her son didn't die either, he lived for 33 more years with the intellectual capacity of a six month old. There is no question that he would have been saved "purely by a car seat."

It's unbelievable to me that otherwise rational people, people who would never put their baby on their lap and let someone drive them down the lenght of a runway at 60 mph, can be so passionate about the right to do it in a metal tube going three times as fast.
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#96 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 04:35 AM
 
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Please everyone, your babies must be LOOSE IN YOUR LAPS and not attached to you in any way, shape or form. Do NOT use a Baby B'Air or baby carrier for take-off and landing. In forward impact, you could crush your child. This is logic and it's for your babies' safety.
I'm confused - if your baby is loose on your lap and you manage, miraculously, to hold on to them with your arms, then wouldn't they be crushed as well?

Adventuredad, I'm glad I'm not the only one with some of your sentiments about where to direct safety measures with our kids based on risk analysis. I often muse over some of the same kind of parallel situations - one example is the number of people that take Tylenol PM while pregnant, but then freak out over listeriosis in lunch meat. I do think its fine and natural, as a parent, to have incongruencies over what we are worried about. I'm more worried about my child's nutrition and hydration on a flight than i am about their being in a car seat, so I focus my mental energy on that. What is not okay though, is that people think its ok to judge others who don't do as they do - and assume that they are just uneducated or ignorant. Yes, a car seat may be safer on a plane. There are a lot of "X" is safer than "Y" but since you can't keep your kids huddled under the table all their lives, you need to strike a balance somewhere. As an extreme example (which should then be extrapolated backwards to a more common one), here in europe and flying out of one of the worlds biggest hubs on a monthly basis, I see tonnes of families coming in from dangerous, developing nations, and travelling onto the west to relocate there - these families may have scraped for the plane tickets and therefore have lap babies - in these cases, the safety factor is merely getting the kid ONTO the plane and out of that situation. I don't blame them for not putting worries into the car seat issue, and neither should anyone else.
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#97 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 07:09 AM
 
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OK--since this thread is active again, I have a question for those of you in the know. While in theory I understand that carseats on a plane would possibly be safer than double belts or holding the child in your arms in the event that some disaster were to strike, I do not understand how non US car seats could possibly be used.

Don't car seats have to be FAA approved in order to use them on planes? That's fine for American car seats, but how about people from other parts of the world? How would you possibly install a European infant bucket that requires a three point harness, on a plane? Even more difficult--how would you install a giant convertible seat like the ones used in Northern Europe? Different countries have different types of car seats, and to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong here) only those that can be installed with a lap belt (for example, American seats--are there others out there?) can be used on a plane.

It's good and well to say that people should use car seats on planes, but for most people in the world, I'm not sure that's a realistic option. If this is such a big priority, why aren't airlines renting out or providing car seats at the airports? Sort of like you'd order a child's meal or special assistance...why don't they provide car seats for use in planes if it's so important? I would guess that most people in the world do not have a car seat they could use on a plane. (BTW--I've heard British Airways now does have car seats that lock into the bassinet area...why can't more airlines do this?)
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#98 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 07:49 AM
 
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Different countries have different types of car seats, and to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong here) only those that can be installed with a lap belt (for example, American seats--are there others out there?) can be used on a plane.
Do you really think only American car seats can be installed with lap belts?
We have lots of seats that can be installed with lap belts here in Scandinavia, both infant seats (buckets) and the bigger RF-ing seats. (RF-ing up to 55 lbs.)

-pixie, my dear, and (A-88), N-98, Littlest-06/00-08/00, J-03 & Little Miss Cotton Ball Button-03 (SN), S-05, Hope-loss 09/09, Bean-loss 04/10, and littlePopcorn due feb. 8th -11.
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#99 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 07:58 AM
 
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Do you really think only American car seats can be installed with lap belts?
We have lots of seats that can be installed with lap belts here in Scandinavia, both infant seats (buckets) and the bigger RF-ing seats. (RF-ing up to 55 lbs.)
OK, in that case, pardon my ignorance...I just didn't realize that. In Norway we have a Maxi Cosi bucket and a BeSafe convertible, and I thought all buckets here had to have the shoulder belt routed around the back of the seat..into that groove-thing. Also, I just can't see a huge seat like the BeSafe fitting into an airplane seat, but maybe some others are smaller. Which ones can you fasten with a lap belt?

I'm just comparing the size and installation of the seats our family have in Norway to the size of the ones we have in the US (infant bucket and Boulevard), and my first thought is that the Norwegian ones are bigger (which is a good thing in cars...there is no doubt in my mind that they're incredibly safe there), but maybe I'm wrong. I have never actually looked at them side by side, because in Norway we use our Norwegian seats and in the US we use our US ones. Like I said--I'm just asking.

We've also been told at airports a couple of times that we weren't allowed to use the Maxi Cosi on a plane because it wouldn't install right...and at least flying to the US they're always asking about that FAA sticker, so I guess I'm just confused.
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#100 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 08:10 AM
 
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The seats are often bigger bc they RF until 4-5 and even 6 years old in Norway. And, out of Norway they will usually deny you using a car seat on the plane just bc they don't really allow it.
And a bucket is the only thing you would be allowed to bring in, one which can be installed with a lap belt. But, as I said, they wont allow you usually anyway out of Norway. They say it's safer without the car seat, and that the safest is to have the kids on the adults lap with the belt you get.

-pixie, my dear, and (A-88), N-98, Littlest-06/00-08/00, J-03 & Little Miss Cotton Ball Button-03 (SN), S-05, Hope-loss 09/09, Bean-loss 04/10, and littlePopcorn due feb. 8th -11.
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#101 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pixiekisses View Post
The seats are often bigger bc they RF until 4-5 and even 6 years old in Norway. And, out of Norway they will usually deny you using a car seat on the plane just bc they don't really allow it.
And a bucket is the only thing you would be allowed to bring in, one which can be installed with a lap belt. But, as I said, they wont allow you usually anyway out of Norway. They say it's safer without the car seat, and that the safest is to have the kids on the adults lap with the belt you get.
Right, so I think we agree. I just cannot see bringing a Scandinavian type convertible seat on a plane...they are simply too big, and as far as I know they won't install with lap belts. Infant buckets they say are not safe--but if flying to the US they will allow an American one because it has the sticker. I didn't realize some of the European ones could be installed with lap belts--now I know.

The point is--airlines seem to disagree on what is safe and what isn't...US based airlines say car seats are safer, while most European airlines (aside from some...like German ones) seem to advocate for the belly belt.

So my question is--why can't they come up with some kind of airline provided seating for babies and toddlers...like the ones they now have on British Airways in the bulkhead? Internationally, there seems to be so much disagreement on car seats...and surely it would be better for the airlines to provide seating rather than rely on parents to bring a suitable seat. Though, I guess if most international airlines say belly belts are safer, it becomes a moot point...
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#102 of 102 Old 07-02-2009, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heidi74 View Post
Right, so I think we agree. I just cannot see bringing a Scandinavian type convertible seat on a plane...they are simply too big, and as far as I know they won't install with lap belts. Infant buckets they say are not safe--but if flying to the US they will allow an American one because it has the sticker. I didn't realize some of the European ones could be installed with lap belts--now I know.
But, not all of the big seats are convertible, there are purely RF-ing seats too. And, yes, there are seats of the big RF-ing kind that installs with lap belts only.


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Originally Posted by Heidi74 View Post
So my question is--why can't they come up with some kind of airline provided seating for babies and toddlers...like the ones they now have on British Airways in the bulkhead. Internationally, there seems to be so much disagreement on car seats...and surely it would be better for the airlines to provide seating rather than rely on parents to bring a suitable seat. Would that really be so difficult?
That, however, would be genious.

-pixie, my dear, and (A-88), N-98, Littlest-06/00-08/00, J-03 & Little Miss Cotton Ball Button-03 (SN), S-05, Hope-loss 09/09, Bean-loss 04/10, and littlePopcorn due feb. 8th -11.
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