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#61 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Jwebbal View Post
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...108/5/1218#B16

The fact of the matter is just because you can't find the stats that list the injuries and deaths on this matter, doesn't mean they don't exist. They do exist, all these groups aren't making this stuff up to fool us...
Thank you. I'm sure that information will help people make more informed choices about airplane safety for their children.
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#62 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:06 AM
 
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I don't buy the comparision bit,
What are you talking about? It's not a "bit" about what you choose to do with your own child. It's a statistic about all the children injured during travel. You want to restrain your child, so do.

If you want to require all parents to restrain their child, you may well be putting those children's lives in danger by diverting parents to car travel over air travel. Car seats should be recommended, sure. Infant fares should be offered to encourage parents to buy seats. But full fare seats should not be required. That is my opinion.

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#63 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The NTSB investigates ANY "incident" with damage to airplanes of any size. For instance, one of the students at DH's school got caught in wind and landed too hard, and damaged the landing gear. It was investigated, along with every other "incident" right up to and including huge commercial passenger jet crashes.
But does it track injuries that occur when no damage happens to the plane? It'd be pretty significant if an in arms infant was injured by minor turbulence, for instance, but that wouldn't damage the plane.
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#64 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:09 AM
 
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Sapphire Chan, this is part of a post I made in a thread awhile back:

Link:
http://news.ucsf.edu/releases/airlin...t-prevents-pe/
I think this link is useful and is getting lost.

"In a new analysis, researchers estimate that if the extra cost of buying airline tickets for the young children led only 5 to 10 percent of families to drive rather than fly, the projected increase in highway deaths would exceed the number of airplane crash deaths prevented. This is because the possible number of deaths that could be prevented with airline safety seats is low—approximately four deaths in 10 years—because airplane travel is very safe, and because the majority of airplane crash deaths occur in crashes in which there are no survivors, according to the researchers.

Even when deaths caused by diversion to car travel are not counted, the estimated cost to save one infant’s life with an airline restraint seat was high. If the average round-trip ticket cost $200, the cost would be $1.3 billion per life saved. “Many more lives could be saved by spending this money on other safety measures,” said UCSF pediatrician Thomas Newman, MD, MPH, lead author of the study.

"The investigators assumed that parents would be cautious drivers taking their trips mostly on interstate highways—a scenario that should lead to about 70 percent fewer auto deaths per mile traveled than the national average.

Depending on the distance traveled, the researchers found that when more than 5 percent to 10 percent of the families with young children who would have traveled by air, instead were carried in cars, there would be more than four extra deaths from car crashes over the course of 10 years. At that point, the FAA regulation would lead to more deaths than it prevented.

“We did not consider serious non-fatal injuries, but with this regulation, the statistics on those probably would look even worse,” Newman said. “Serious nonfatal injuries are less common than deaths from air travel, but 80 times more common than deaths for car travel. Thus virtually any substitution from air to car travel would increase serious injuries.” Other analyses, including one done by the FAA in 1995, have yielded similar results.


And I'm done with this topic again. It just becomes a case study in failure to understand statistics versus anecdotes.

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#65 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Of the "thousands" (estimate from a variety of sources, none definitive) of infants flying each year:

less than 25 incidents where infants were mentioned in the crash report


Lap infants:
1 head injury
1 died with everyone in the crash, but probably would've been at least injured since it was thrown to the back of the plane
3 hospitalized
1 with minor injuries--7 other lap babies on the same flight were uninjured

Carseat babies
1 survives impact

Isolette babies
1 (maybe more) dead


Doesn't include injuries that occurred due to things not reported to the NTSB, but it doesn't really convince me that it's not possible to hold your baby under typical conditions. Really, I'd be more worried about someone trying to juggle a carseat, a baby, and luggage and whacking another passenger while getting on or off the plane.
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#66 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:24 AM
 
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I don't know how else to make this clear. I am arguing that parents have a duty to protect their babies, even while flying. It may be a requirement someday that child restraints be used on airplanes for children under 2, or it might not. But as parents, it is my belief that if we fly with our children we can make the choice to protect our children as much as we are protecting ourselves, by restraining them in their own seat. I made that choice. I understand not everyone else does, but I wish they did. For the safety of their child, even if the chance is low, but also for the safety of those around them. I am mostly concerned with turbulence, because it's much more common than crashes. I read the studies on turbulence, and yes, the stats on that were higher for injuries than deaths. That's where I get my info from. As for crashes, some years there are more deaths, some years more injuries than deaths. But I wasn't arguing that. I am arguing about injuries sustained in turbulence, rough take offs and landings, and emergencies.
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#67 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And I'm done with this topic again. It just becomes a case study in failure to understand statistics versus anecdotes.
Awww, c'mon, at least look at the summary I posted!

Here's a question. Since the injuries sustained by lap infants appear to mostly be from "wasn't able to hold on" why isn't anyone tracking how well those "strap the kid to you" devices work? They aren't FAA approved, but that doesn't really seem justified by the evidence.
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#68 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:27 AM
 
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EviesMom -- just a personal thank you for your contribution. I appreciate all your perspective.

And a personal note: the "they're going to have to spend the money soon anyway" argument? Does anyone not realize how silly that sounds? "Gee, I could save $300 today, but I have to spend that $300 again next year, so I might as well pay it now too!" Really? That's not how my personal economics work, though I guess I don't know about anyone else. For me, that $300 means the difference between whether we can fly now, or not. Not having to spend it when my child is under 2 means that it might be there for when we have to spend it when he's over 2.

Of course infants are safer in restraints. But when we're talking about an activity that's overall highly safe, I just don't see why all the energy gets spent on it.
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#69 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:27 AM
 
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I don't know how else to make this clear. I am arguing that parents have a duty to protect their babies, even while flying.
That opinion I respect deeply.

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#70 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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sorry, forgot to clarify my assumptions, it's because I'm not a scientist-type. I started the query in 1990 because we have information that in 1989 someone was told to put her infant on the floor. Therefore, before 1990, I don't trust that "in lap" actually meant someone was holding the baby.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/meet...ler/sld002.htm
"One infant dies of smoke inhalation after a crash"

Why is that on a list of injuries that probably would've been prevented by a child restraint system?

And why is it listed for 1989 which is the year of the Sioux City crash? I thought that baby died of impact injuries from being thrown around. There was a later crash where a baby died in fire, but that baby was in a carseat.
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#71 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:43 AM
 
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sorry, forgot to clarify my assumptions, it's because I'm not a scientist-type. I started the query in 1990 because we have information that in 1989 someone was told to put her infant on the floor. Therefore, before 1990, I don't trust that "in lap" actually meant someone was holding the baby.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/meet...ler/sld002.htm
"One infant dies of smoke inhalation after a crash"

Why is that on a list of injuries that probably would've been prevented by a child restraint system?
Possibly the child wasn't in the parent's grip after the crash and couldn't be found during evacuation. The time available for successful evacuation is very short.

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#72 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ooo, another question we can't answer! How would having more people installing carseats on planes before take-off affect things like:

how well the seats are installed when people who don't think they're really necessary are told they have to install them--I mean, I'd do my best, but there are plenty of people who install them wrong in cars with all the time in the world to get them in place.

how well overhead luggage is stowed when people also have a carseat to deal with

injuries resulting from more people hauling carseats through the planes
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#73 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:48 AM
 
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If you had that information available, why did you... *deep breath*
Okay, I just need to know what this is in reference to. I get far too invested in online discussions!

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#74 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:53 AM
 
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Ooo, another question we can't answer! How would having more people installing carseats on planes before take-off affect things like:

how well the seats are installed when people who don't think they're really necessary are told they have to install them--I mean, I'd do my best, but there are plenty of people who install them wrong in cars with all the time in the world to get them in place.

how well overhead luggage is stowed when people also have a carseat to deal with

injuries resulting from more people hauling carseats through the planes
See, this is why I think car seats should be recommended and not required; seats should be reduced cost for infants but still optional, and the money should be spent encouraging little/no overhead luggage. Check weights, do away with baggage fees, make it easier to check your baggage. It would benefit more than 4 kids every 10 years.

OR, if airlines were more flush with cash, they should offer free seats for infants and include car seats for kids under some target age for use during the flight. They should be already installed in the child's assigned seat. Some parents will still bring their own seats instead; some will bring a seat to check or gate check because they need them at the other end; that's the utopian version though IMO.

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#75 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Possibly the child wasn't in the parent's grip after the crash and couldn't be found during evacuation. The time available for successful evacuation is very short.
Ah, gotcha.

Hmm, yet another argument for those strap the baby to you things.
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#76 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, I just need to know what this is in reference to. I get far too invested in online discussions!
Ooops sorry, editing!
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#77 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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See, this is why I think car seats should be recommended and not required; seats should be reduced cost for infants but still optional, and the money should be spent encouraging little/no overhead luggage. Check weights, do away with baggage fees, make it easier to check your baggage. It would benefit more than 4 kids every 10 years.

OR, if airlines were more flush with cash, they should offer free seats for infants and include car seats for kids under some target age for use during the flight. They should be already installed in the child's assigned seat. Some parents will still bring their own seats instead; some will bring a seat to check or gate check because they need them at the other end; that's the utopian version though IMO.
Putting LATCH anchors into the planes would probably be easier and cheaper.
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#78 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 03:13 AM
 
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The problem I have with the money arguement is that people "can't afford" a seat for a 23 month old, but when they fly next time they suddenly can? Flying is a privledge, not a right, and either you afford it or you don't.

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#79 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 03:21 AM
 
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Of course infants are safer in restraints. But when we're talking about an activity that's overall highly safe, I just don't see why all the energy gets spent on it.
Well, really, then I should move to the city and take a bus everywhere because it's safer than driving with my kids (statistically). But really, it's not practical in the situation I'm in (and dh's commute would suck!). I think you have to analyze cost vs. benefit looking statistically. For car travel, $200 on a car seat has a HIGH likelihood of saving the child's life at some point while they are using it (over a matter of years). For plane travel the $250 ticket (or more or less) has a very small likelihood of preventing death or injury over a matter of hours. I do not have a problem with people choosing to fly with lap children any more than I do having someone choose to drive with their child in a car rather than take safer public transportation.

And fwiw, I've been on some pretty turbulent flights with a lap baby and I (nor my husband) have ever had a problem holding on to the child. Even when the plane dropped a few feet suddenly (when the seatbelt light was off, fwiw).

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#80 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The problem I have with the money arguement is that people "can't afford" a seat for a 23 month old, but when they fly next time they suddenly can? Flying is a privledge, not a right, and either you afford it or you don't.
I bet a lot of families fly out to visit relatives when their LOs can be in-lap and then drive cross-country when their kids get older.

For other families, having the baby in-lap means the difference between seeing grandma and grandpa twice in X time or 3 times since that's 6 fares either way.

Or by flying with the baby in lap for 3 trips, they can afford to make the 4th trip with their toddler in his/her own seat.
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#81 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 03:33 AM
 
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Hm let's see, if I went to visit grandma, I could take a 2 hour flight, or I could take a 4 day drive. So, we fly, and the kids were in car seats every time, before and after their 2nd birthday.

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#82 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hm let's see, if I went to visit grandma, I could take a 2 hour flight, or I could take a 4 day drive. So, we fly, and the kids were in car seats every time, before and after their 2nd birthday.
You had your kids in car seats on the plane after their 2nd birthdays?

Now that's something I didn't look into, how many kids in seatbelts on airplanes could've been saved by being in car seats.
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#83 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:01 AM
 
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You had your kids in car seats on the plane after their 2nd birthdays?
The recomendation is to use a CRS until 40lbs.
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#84 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:09 AM
 
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Now that's something I didn't look into, how many kids in seatbelts on airplanes could've been saved by being in car seats.
Probably close to 0

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#85 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:27 AM
 
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I bet a lot of families fly out to visit relatives when their LOs can be in-lap and then drive cross-country when their kids get older.

For other families, having the baby in-lap means the difference between seeing grandma and grandpa twice in X time or 3 times since that's 6 fares either way.

Or by flying with the baby in lap for 3 trips, they can afford to make the 4th trip with their toddler in his/her own seat.
I've really been enjoying reading this thread.

I'd like to say that the above specifically describes us.

When my older dd was under two, we flew out west to visit. When she was older - we drove. Now that I have a younger dd (we're in a bit better shape financially) we'll fly until she's two and then switch to driving.

We base a lot of our travelling directly on cost. How often can we go, for how much?

It's way too much for us to pay for three or four seats, especially in Canada.

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#86 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The recomendation is to use a CRS until 40lbs.
Ah, okay.

In that case I suspect a lot of families just don't travel from 2 years to 40lbs.

Or 35lbs and heavy clothes.

But that's not a money thing, that's an awkwardness of dealing with the carseat thing.
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Ah, okay.

In that case I suspect a lot of families just don't travel from 2 years to 40lbs.

Or 35lbs and heavy clothes.

But that's not a money thing, that's an awkwardness of dealing with the carseat thing.
Its probably the fact that 0 children die each year for not being on a carseat in a plane

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#88 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:45 AM
 
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Its probably the fact that 0 children die each year for not being on a carseat in a plane
But this thread is also talking about injuries. Why focus only on death statistics? It's quite possible that some/many injuries could have been prevented if a child had been in a car seat instead of just using the plane's seat belt.

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#89 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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You had your kids in car seats on the plane after their 2nd birthdays?

Now that's something I didn't look into, how many kids in seatbelts on airplanes could've been saved by being in car seats.

Oh, most definitely here as well. We went across country last March, my son was 4.5, and he traveled in his Marathon. I ditched the seat for one short leg, and regreted it. He couldn't see out the window, and he was uncomfortable without his seat and even told me so. Our next trip he is too big for a car seat, and I am gate checking his car seat, and not happy about it. I do not like how they treat gate checked seats, and had damage to his seat last time we flew. I will miss how easy it was for my son to nap in his own car seat, at 5 he still takes naps!
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#90 of 132 Old 04-24-2009, 11:02 AM
 
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Ah, okay.

In that case I suspect a lot of families just don't travel from 2 years to 40lbs.

Or 35lbs and heavy clothes.

But that's not a money thing, that's an awkwardness of dealing with the carseat thing.
honestly, I didn't find it all that difficult. By that time my kid was walking and carrying his own stuff. I had the car seat on an umbrella stroller.

Oh, and when he was a baby, I managed just fine as well. I always traveled alone. It took some effort, but I went into it knowing I just had to do it, and I never considered not taking his seat, it was just a given.
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