UPDATE: post #154 I'm at a loss, really, I just cant' believe a parent can have so little regard for a child's safety - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 08:55 PM
 
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They are talking about high back boosters. There are only 2 kinds of boosters: high-back and backless. A "harnessed booster" is a different category alltogether, since it doesn't involve positioning the belt.
hmm then I guess it's good I am reselling my AO!

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#62 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 09:17 PM
 
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I am pretty uptight about carseat safety, but when we went to NYC we did not use carseats in cabs - we just couldn't figure out a way to do it without lugging a huge carseat around all the time (ds1 was 3yo at the time). If they were literally going to be in the car for 5 minutes the entire trip, I could see not bringing a carseat.
Disney is about 30 minutes away from Orlando airport...down a major highway.
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#63 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 09:34 PM
 
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Disney is about 30 minutes away from Orlando airport...down a major highway.
Yep! I'm right in Orlando close by the attractions! People drive like idiots here! Cannot tell you how many times we've had to slam on the breaks to avoid getting hurt
I feel safest with my kids being harnessed as long as possible!
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#64 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 10:01 PM
 
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Here is the break down of
injury data. I'm not going back through to site each reference, but you can, they are there. Data shows that toddlers 1 - 4 are 54% safer in a ff harnessing seat and children ages 4 - 8 59% safer in a booster than in a seat belt alone. Levitt's data is simply not borne out in the crash test studies and data compliled by virtually everyone else, even if you exclue rear facing.
The 54% safer figure (and 71% safer for infants) is as compared to no restraint at all. (It's not clear from the page you linked to, but I looked it up.)

Here is a study I just found and skimmed that found child restraints led to a 21% decrease in mortality (28% when not seriously misused) as compared to seatbelts for children 2-6. The authors also discuss other research, including Levitt's, and point out what they see as some problems with Levitt's analysis.

In regard to the OP, I think the horror expressed is way out of proportion to the situation. Yes, it would be safer to use a carseat. Yes, I would use a carseat myself. But the actual risk of death or injury if they make a few short drives without one is pretty low. You could argue that there is no excuse for ever choosing any option that increases the risk to your children. But then you'd have to blast parents who choose to live in houses with stairs, or buy their kids bikes or skateboards, or let them take baths instead of just wiping them down with a washcloth.
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#65 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 10:41 PM
 
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Kids are not cooperating, so here is a quick list:

NHTSA Reports

Presentations

Crash statistics

Research notes
Wow. That's amazing. Thanks for the info. I'll get back to you once I wade through it all.
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#66 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 11:13 PM
 
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Here is a study I just found and skimmed that found child restraints led to a 21% decrease in mortality (28% when not seriously misused) as compared to seatbelts for children 2-6. The authors also discuss other research, including Levitt's, and point out what they see as some problems with Levitt's analysis.
Ah, now that is really interesting. I can't help but note that they did not seem to differentiate between forward-facing and rear-facing seats. I wonder if Levitt did? At any rate, this is all starting to get a bit over my head. I am not a statistician, and when two experts take the same data and adjust for different things and come out with different results, I am really not capable of telling which one is better/more accurate. But thanks for the article.

I still believe that where experts disagree as to the relative safety of two choices we should not condemn parents who make either choice.
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#67 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 11:15 PM
 
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Thanks for the follow up and links on the data I posted earlier!

I would like to point out this excerpt from an article about Levitt's car seat findings. EVERY time this issue comes up, this point gets missed. He is NOT advocating for children using adult belts alone.

Levitt is not advocating getting rid of booster seats. Instead, his main concern is that car seats and booster seats are not built into vehicles at the factory. Chrysler, Dodge and Volvo offer built-in booster seats as an extra-cost option in some of their vehicles. If you want a built-in seat with a five-point harness, though, you're out of luck.

"I'm not advocating using adult seatbelts for kids," he says. "What I'd like to see is some of the $300 million that's invested in the car seat industry allocated to further study and improve the technology already available in cars — seatbelts — to better suit children."

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#68 of 160 Old 06-06-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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My mother is pretty anti-carseat. She would never come out and say so directly, but her overall attitude and side comments she makes are pretty clear.

She thinks strapping DS in so tightly is too confining and uncomfortable for him. She also has a little of that "We never used seats with you kids and you turned out fine" thing going on.

She also thinks breastfeeding is bad, so ........

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#69 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:06 AM
 
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#70 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:18 AM
 
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As regards your graphic, it clearly states that the child has put the shoulder belt behind his or her back. And that's certainly not what Levitt is advocating.
So he's suggesting backless booster use from age 2?

Did he do any test with a dummy positioned leaned as far over as possible to try to reach a toy? Or even just slumped over as though asleep?
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#71 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:21 AM
 
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Thanks for the follow up and links on the data I posted earlier!

I would like to point out this excerpt from an article about Levitt's car seat findings. EVERY time this issue comes up, this point gets missed. He is NOT advocating for children using adult belts alone.

Levitt is not advocating getting rid of booster seats. Instead, his main concern is that car seats and booster seats are not built into vehicles at the factory. Chrysler, Dodge and Volvo offer built-in booster seats as an extra-cost option in some of their vehicles. If you want a built-in seat with a five-point harness, though, you're out of luck.

"I'm not advocating using adult seatbelts for kids," he says. "What I'd like to see is some of the $300 million that's invested in the car seat industry allocated to further study and improve the technology already available in cars — seatbelts — to better suit children."
That makes so much more sense.
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#72 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:33 AM
 
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I don't think it's "it couldn't happen to ME" syndrome. I think, just like for any parenting decision, people weight the risks vs. the benefits. I have taken my babies out of their carseats in the past (trying to calm hysterical crying).
I have never understood this. I'd rather have a crying child than a dead child. It just takes an instant.

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#73 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:46 AM
 
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op maybe your friend should watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G59s3PjcntQ&NR=1

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#74 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 09:56 AM
 
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I still believe that where experts disagree as to the relative safety of two choices we should not condemn parents who make either choice.
Levitt is an economist and author of pop liturature. Not so much a carseat safety expert. He makes lots and lots of money by saying controversial things, especially if they are what people want to hear, which makes him biased, as well.

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#75 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 10:32 AM
 
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I have never understood this. I'd rather have a crying child than a dead child. It just takes an instant.
taking one's baby out of his carseat does not equal sudden/automatic death.

Leaving them to cry does mean they are most definitely emotionally harmed.

I don't care what other people do. I'm just saying that everyone has to weigh the risks vs the benefits for their own situation.

My baby is screaming hysterically. It is unlikely that we are going to be in a collission. So I take him out of his seat for a few minutes to burp him or whatever. NOt a big deal.
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#76 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 10:52 AM
 
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taking one's baby out of his carseat does not equal sudden/automatic death.

Leaving them to cry does mean they are most definitely emotionally harmed.

I don't care what other people do. I'm just saying that everyone has to weigh the risks vs the benefits for their own situation.

My baby is screaming hysterically. It is unlikely that we are going to be in a collission. So I take him out of his seat for a few minutes to burp him or whatever. NOt a big deal.
I respectfully disagree with every statement you've made, and I DO care what other people do (it makes me shiver when I see children unbuckled in the car) but, I understand that there isn't a thing I can do about it.

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#77 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 10:57 AM
 
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I respectfully disagree with every statement you've made, and I DO care what other people do (it makes me shiver when I see children unbuckled in the car) but, I understand that there isn't a thing I can do about it.

You disagree with the statement "taking one's baby does not equal sudden/automatic death"?

A baby does not die just because they are out of their carseat. A baby might die if the car they are riding in is in an accident while they are out of their seat. That's the risk I'm talking about. What is the likliness of being in an car accident, at that moment.

nak sorry
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#78 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 11:53 AM
 
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You disagree with the statement "taking one's baby does not equal sudden/automatic death"?

A baby does not die just because they are out of their carseat. A baby might die if the car they are riding in is in an accident while they are out of their seat. That's the risk I'm talking about. What is the likliness of being in an car accident, at that moment.

nak sorry
I disagree with the statement that it is a fact-- the possibility DOES exist that taking out your child at that instant may equal sudden death. No, it is not a guarantee that the child will die, nor is it a guarantee that the child will live. You state it that there is NO WAY the child will die. I disagree.

If you are comfortable with that risk, so be it, just as I am comfortable with my children crying at times. Maybe if I'd just had one child (who was still an infant at the moment of this writing) I would feel that way, that crying is damaging. After three children who are generally peaceful children (given the reality of their ages, mind you), I see crying, even in infants, as just part of life. When I've had children who really hated the car, I just avoided driving at all costs, so the crying would be minimal. But I'd never risk death just to keep a child from crying.

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#79 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Look, I am simply uninterested in shocking-looking videos of crash-test dummies. If you have a link to something with actual analysis, I would love to see it.

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So he's suggesting backless booster use from age 2?

Did he do any test with a dummy positioned leaned as far over as possible to try to reach a toy? Or even just slumped over as though asleep?
No, he did his research on correctly-positioned child-sized dummies in regular adult seat belts. Just as manufacturers of car seats do their research on correctly-installed, correctly-used car seats. Your point that adult seat belt misuse occurs is certainly valid. I doubt that it rises to the level of misuse that happens with car seats (which, by some estimates, is as much as 95%). I would note that as far as booster seats are concerned, they are not restraint devices. My understanding is that their only purpose is to position the adult seat belt. So boosters will not keep kids from slumping over or trying to reach a toy, etc.

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Levitt is an economist and author of pop liturature. Not so much a carseat safety expert. He makes lots and lots of money by saying controversial things, especially if they are what people want to hear, which makes him biased, as well.
Point taken. To be perfectly honest, though, when it comes to statistical analysis I think an economist is every bit as much of an expert (and probably moreso) than a medical doctor. What I'd really like to see is the opinion of a biomedical engineer.
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I disagree with the statement that it is a fact-- the possibility DOES exist that taking out your child at that instant may equal sudden death. No, it is not a guarantee that the child will die, nor is it a guarantee that the child will live. You state it that there is NO WAY the child will die. I disagree.
No, you misunderstood her. She didn't say there was no way the child would die. She was saying just what you said - that there is no guarantee the child will die if removed from the carseat. In these discussions about carseats, a lot of people talk as if they believe riding without a carseat, even for a few minutes, means almost certain death, and being in a carseat guarantees a child will not die. Your comment, "I'd rather have a crying child than a dead child" made it sound as if you were one of those people.
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#81 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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The car rental places have carseats and as a matter of experience, will not let you off their lot with a car-seat aged child in their car without a carseat.
a lot of rental places are now discontinuing renting carseats out due to liability issues. I mean say a child was in an accident and was hurt the parents could sue the car rental if the seat wasnt *maintained* or what not. I mean you can never be sure using a used carseat what a stranger did with it. When we rented a car a few months back we asked around (we were price shopping) and several national chains no longer do it.
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#82 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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Point taken. To be perfectly honest, though, when it comes to statistical analysis I think an economist is every bit as much of an expert (and probably moreso) than a medical doctor. What I'd really like to see is the opinion of a biomedical engineer.
Oh, absolutely. A medical doctor wouldn't count for sure. My DD's pediatrician is absolutely clueless about carseats. Ideally a physicist or an engineer with a strong background in statistics would look at it. Maybe with the help of a behavioral psychologist. However I'd be willing to look at an economist's opinion if he did not have a direct economic motivation toward a particular answer.

FWIW, I'm an engineer with a background in physics and analysis. I don't have access to appropriate data to make a good analysis, but I have enough information to spot a poor one.

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#83 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 03:09 PM
 
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I was actually far more convinced by the independent testing he had done than by the statistics related to car seats. Statistics are always tricky because something has to be included and excluded, and you have to trust the researcher to do it in as fair and unbiased a way as possible. Crash tests, on the other hand...well, I don't see how they could lie.
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Look, I am simply uninterested in shocking-looking videos of crash-test dummies. If you have a link to something with actual analysis, I would love to see it.
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I don't think anyone here believes a child will die automatically if they are unstrapped for a few minutes in the car. That is absurd. I've accidentally forgotten to buckle my child before and he survived. Because we didn't get in an accident. However if we HAD, he could have, or at least been seriously injured. And if we had, I never would have forgiven myself, even though it was an accident that he wasn't buckled. So to take a child out of a seat for *convenience* and risk their life (because you can't predict when you will be in an accident, you are certainly taking a huge risk) boggles my mind. Gotta burp the kid? Pull over! It's inconvenient but I won't risk my child's life for convenience. I will NEVER understand the whole "It's only unsafe if you are in an accident" reasoning. It's unsafe all the time because you can't predict the accident.

I think the guy saying to use seatbelts at 2 is....not all that brilliant. He claims to be trying to make the child restraint situation safer through his research, but what he fails to realize is we DO know what we can do to make things safer, it's just the US is a little slow to catch on. So instead of advocating for better, safer usage, he tells us to just forget about it and take our kids out of their seats until the car manufacturers decide to solve the problem? So while we're patiently waiting, how many kids are going to die or be injured? Because last time I checked, most parents misuse BOOSTERS too. It's not just harnessed seats that see misuse.
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#85 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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I don't think anyone here believes a child will die automatically if they are unstrapped for a few minutes in the car. That is absurd. I've accidentally forgotten to buckle my child before and he survived. Because we didn't get in an accident. However if we HAD, he could have, or at least been seriously injured. And if we had, I never would have forgiven myself, even though it was an accident that he wasn't buckled. So to take a child out of a seat for *convenience* and risk their life (because you can't predict when you will be in an accident, you are certainly taking a huge risk) boggles my mind. Gotta burp the kid? Pull over! It's inconvenient but I won't risk my child's life for convenience. I will NEVER understand the whole "It's only unsafe if you are in an accident" reasoning. It's unsafe all the time because you can't predict the accident.

.
This exactly!!! If you could predict an accident, there wouldn't BE any accidents, and it wouldn't be the number one cause of death for our little ones.

Last year a mama an hour from here had her baby die. She was riding down the road at 35mph (her DH was driving), little to no traffic, no "risk", and took her baby out of the seat to calm it down. She may have been lucky the first 99 times she did it, but THAT time, she lost her baby. Because she just couldn't be inconvenienced enough to pull over for 5 minutes.

But again, everyone makes their own choices, and one way or another you have to live with those choices. OP-you can't save 'em all. Whenever my blood pressure gets up or I feel horrible for someone's kids, DH tells me to tell myself that evolution will take care of it. It's a horrible thought, I know, but it's the only way I can keep myself sane.

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#86 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 04:48 PM
 
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Crash test videos are a very small bit of the data that comes from crash tests. Those dummies are covered in sensors, and they put it all into an algorithm, and determine the relative safety of various restraints. As someone who has absolutely no expertise wrt crash tests, I am totally incapable of watching a crash test video and determining how safe or unsafe the restraint is. Perhaps someone with more experience can do that. I am capable of reading or hearing about analysis done by experts interpreting data they got through a crash test, and I do think that that sort of analysis is much less subject to bias than the type of statistical research that involves adjusting for hundreds of variables. I am sorry that I didn't make that more clear. I guess I didn't realize that someone might not know the difference between a crash test and a crash-test video.

On a marginally related note, I certainly do recognize that crash tests provide a limited amount of data. Crash tests are an evolving science and the dummies are improving all the time.
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#87 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 05:02 PM
 
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I think people just really think that it will never happen to them. Honestly, that's the ONLY explanation I can come up with. I've seen people who I *know* love their kids and want the best for them in almost every way, who just have no regard for proper car seat use. They just really must think that it could never matter.

I also think that some people, who are using a car seat but not entirely properly, ie, straps aren't tight enough, think that it's just as safe as with the straps tightened. They just don't stop to think enough to realize that it could make a huge difference in a crash. kwim?

Maybe that's it. It's just people that aren't thinking.

:
One of my best friends has a dd 2 weeks older than mine. Her dd was flipped ff at 11 months (she was over 20lbs) and now the straps on her seat are soooo loose. Once when we were riding in her car, her dd was able to slip her arm out from under the strap.

This woman is a wonderful mom, loves her dd very much. She just really dosen't consider car seats very important.

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#88 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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Look, I am simply uninterested in shocking-looking videos of crash-test dummies. If you have a link to something with actual analysis, I would love to see it.
I have linked to you TONS of information.

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#89 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bandgeek View Post
I don't think anyone here believes a child will die automatically if they are unstrapped for a few minutes in the car. That is absurd. I've accidentally forgotten to buckle my child before and he survived. Because we didn't get in an accident. However if we HAD, he could have, or at least been seriously injured. And if we had, I never would have forgiven myself, even though it was an accident that he wasn't buckled. So to take a child out of a seat for *convenience* and risk their life (because you can't predict when you will be in an accident, you are certainly taking a huge risk) boggles my mind. Gotta burp the kid? Pull over! It's inconvenient but I won't risk my child's life for convenience. I will NEVER understand the whole "It's only unsafe if you are in an accident" reasoning. It's unsafe all the time because you can't predict the accident.

I think the guy saying to use seatbelts at 2 is....not all that brilliant. He claims to be trying to make the child restraint situation safer through his research, but what he fails to realize is we DO know what we can do to make things safer, it's just the US is a little slow to catch on. So instead of advocating for better, safer usage, he tells us to just forget about it and take our kids out of their seats until the car manufacturers decide to solve the problem? So while we're patiently waiting, how many kids are going to die or be injured? Because last time I checked, most parents misuse BOOSTERS too. It's not just harnessed seats that see misuse.
Yes, indeed.

(And I live in a scandinavian country who is one of the most advanced in car seat safety for kids, our kids usually RF to 4-5 (maybe even 6) yo.)

-pixie, my dear, and (A-88), N-98, Littlest-06/00-08/00, J-03 & Little Miss Cotton Ball Button-03 (SN), S-05, Hope-loss 09/09, Bean-loss 04/10, and littlePopcorn due feb. 8th -11.
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#90 of 160 Old 06-07-2009, 06:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by an_aurora View Post
I have linked to you TONS of information.
And I went through it all and found very little actual analysis dealing with the relative effectiveness of seat belts and car seats in children 2 & up. There was a research note that said that car seats were 47% effective against fatalities in children 1-4 and adult seat belts were 47-48% effective against fatalities in children 1-4. But I certainly didn't see anything indicating that horrible things happen to children in adult seat belts, which is what your video was apparently meant to illustrate. I mean what I say: If you have information that adult seat belts are dangerous, I would love to see it. I am just not interested in the shock value of a video. I don't believe in making decisions based on fear.
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