Keep kids rear facing till age 4 message hits the mainstream media - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 05:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mommy2maya View Post
I find it so amusing that so many people go on and on about how great Europe is about rearfacing, when it is not all of europe. It is Sweden.
It's absolutely more than Sweden. I live in a different scandinavian country, and it's the same her.

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#62 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 12:04 PM
 
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Hip displaysia and severe leg injuries from rear facing are simply not born out in the data. There is not record of one SINGLE severe leg injury from rear facing. The odds that a child's leg would be pinned between the door and a seat, causing severing of a major vessel, is very, very slim. Sure, it's possible. But we know that side impact crashes account for only 8% of crashes. And what are the odds that in that 8%, a child's leg is in such a position to be trapped between the door and the seat? It's far more likely that you will be involved in one of the 92% of crashes that are frontal, where rear facing will protect the head, neck, spine and legs. Leg injuries don't appear until children are forward facing. And with all due respect to your doctor supervisor, if this was a real risk, why aren't those of us who are CPST Instructors hearing anything about it? Why is there no data? Etc.?

As far as hip dysplaisa, I'm sure that there are children with hip problems who might be recommended to not sit rear facing. However, I suspect those situations are rare, few and far between. I rarely see my son sitting in a froggy position, with his feet up against the seat back and his knees in the air, he just crosses his legs in front of him, criss-cross-apple sauce.

This is all really simple, young children are safest rear facing, 5 times safer, in fact. Legs, hips, etc. are not an issue.

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#63 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 06:32 PM
 
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This is the most depressing thing I've heard in, oh, I don't even know how long. AUGH!

Forgive me for not being thrilled about this, but Lily was an absolute NIGHTMARE in the car until we got her upright, forward facing carseat for her first birthday. The change has been such a dramatic improvement - and at last, we've been able to start going places! I can do grocery shopping during the day insted of waiting until DP gets home at 7 or 8 PM. I can go to mom's groups. I can go to the Y and use ChildWatch. For the last 2 months the world was starting to open up again, I was starting to feel like something resembling a PERSON again . . . and now this. Oh my GOD.

Great. Lily will be safer, wonderful, but she'll be motherless because *I* will blow my brains out from the cabin fever.

Forgive my rant. Life was really approaching utter unmanagability before we turned her seat around. If you haven't had a kid who cried nonstop in the car - forcing you to do CIO on wheels - then you don't know how much of a difference such an improvement can make.
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#64 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 06:38 PM
 
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It may or may not help, but for a 1yo, even a RFing carseat can be installed fairly upright, not at the 45-degree angle some infant buckets require.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#65 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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dd would have hated that. She desperately wanted to be able to see me and you know I had to keep singing or talking on all those long rides where I was out of sight.. I once had a four hour drive with my arm over the back of the front seat and the top of her car seat so that she could feel me for that long ride, I did it, but it certainly wasn't the safest drive ever. As she aged she would have been better able to understand, but I was glad to face her front once she was big enough and it was no where near four.
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#66 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
It may or may not help, but for a 1yo, even a RFing carseat can be installed fairly upright, not at the 45-degree angle some infant buckets require.
This can make a HUGE difference. Unfortunately, parents don't realize they can install their RF seats much more upright; they frequently stick to the angle indicator on the seat. I didn't know about a more upright install until I read about it from some CPSTs online. I never would've found out otherwise! (And, thanks to all those techs, I'm now a tech!)

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#67 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OP here. Just for the record, I turned my daughter FF at one year because she wasn't a fan of the car till then, and life changed for the better. She wasn't as horrible in the car RF as some kids I've heard about, but it was no picnic sometimes either. So I get that some might not want to RF any longer than the law currently requires.

That said, I think the vast majority of kids don't give a rats behind which way they face. My son doesn't seem to. And the fact is, it is much safer for small children to RF. What parents do with that information is their choice at the moment. I'm just glad the information is getting out there so parents can at least make an informed decision.

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#68 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:32 PM
 
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Wow, I'm shocked by all the misinformation in this thread. I expect that in my more mainstream forums, but not MDC....

-------------------------------

Which seat is that? And is the top of the shell actually tall enough for an average height 40lber?
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Originally Posted by soxthecatrules View Post
From what I've learned (mainly on this board) is that bent legs don't break. But, a child bracing them for impact will be more likely to have his/her legs broke. Many European countries are more safety conscious in this regard than the U.S. Across the ocean they have seats that RF to 50-55lbs. In the US we finally have one that will RF to 40lbs. Once the west coast & midwestern people finish getting out of bed this morning I'm sure you'll get more responses.

FWIW....DS is 2.5yrs, FF in a Nautilus. We went on a long trip a couple of weeks ago and probably 3/4 of the time his legs were bent just like a child ERF would.

------------------------

I'm so glad this study has came out and shown what we all already knew. Dd1 is still rfing at 32lbs and 3.5 years old. I hope she lasts a long time that way.

One thing to help with the leg room is to recline the vehicle seat (check your vehicle's owner manual to make sure you can). This gave dd1 a ton of more room. I'll see if I can get a pic and post it here.
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#69 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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The MyRide's shell is equal to or slightly taller than that of a Britax Marathon. The Sunshine Kids Radians and Compass TrueFit's shells are taller.

I am not complaining, because I think this is a huge and important development in child passenger safety, but I believe the MyRide is better suited for chunky toddlers who would otherwise have to forward-face way too early than for average-size and -shape preschoolers.

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#70 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greenmama View Post
dd would have hated that. She desperately wanted to be able to see me and you know I had to keep singing or talking on all those long rides where I was out of sight.. I once had a four hour drive with my arm over the back of the front seat and the top of her car seat so that she could feel me for that long ride, I did it, but it certainly wasn't the safest drive ever. As she aged she would have been better able to understand, but I was glad to face her front once she was big enough and it was no where near four.
Just as an fyi - if you can turn the airbags off in your car, you can move your RFing kiddo to the front pass. seat so they can see you. It is still safer than FFing and they do this in Sweden a lot. I think someone has already mentioned it, but just wanted to bring it up again because this seems to be the main complaint for wanting to FF earlier and I think it's a viable solution.

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#71 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:38 PM
 
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That is not a legal choice in many states.

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#72 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
The MyRide's shell is equal to or slightly taller than that of a Britax Marathon. The Sunshine Kids Radians and Compass TrueFit's shells are taller.

I am not complaining, because I think this is a huge and important development in child passenger safety, but I believe the MyRide is better suited for chunky toddlers who would otherwise have to forward-face way too early than for average-size and -shape preschoolers.
car-seat.org has tons of pic of the marathon and the MR65 together so you can see height. As a mom of a 30 lb. 10mo, I was VERY happy to see this seat come out.

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#73 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
That is not a legal choice in many states.
http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx

My bad - it says on the side which states you can or cannot do this in and under what restrictions.

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#74 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 10:43 PM
 
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For those wondering about what ERF looks like:

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum.aspx

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#75 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 10:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RoseDuperre View Post
This is the most depressing thing I've heard in, oh, I don't even know how long. AUGH!

Forgive me for not being thrilled about this, but Lily was an absolute NIGHTMARE in the car until we got her upright, forward facing carseat for her first birthday. The change has been such a dramatic improvement - and at last, we've been able to start going places! I can do grocery shopping during the day insted of waiting until DP gets home at 7 or 8 PM. I can go to mom's groups. I can go to the Y and use ChildWatch. For the last 2 months the world was starting to open up again, I was starting to feel like something resembling a PERSON again . . . and now this. Oh my GOD.

Great. Lily will be safer, wonderful, but she'll be motherless because *I* will blow my brains out from the cabin fever.

Forgive my rant. Life was really approaching utter unmanagability before we turned her seat around. If you haven't had a kid who cried nonstop in the car - forcing you to do CIO on wheels - then you don't know how much of a difference such an improvement can make.
I thought the same thing when I saw the segment. I thought "No, freakin' way am I waiting until 4!" I'll be lucky if we can make it to 1! My son screams from the time he gets into his carseat until he gets out of it. NONSTOP! He's almost 4 months old and I panic at the thought of having to put him into the car.

I just installed a new carseat that sits more upright today and we shall see if it makes a difference.

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#76 of 102 Old 06-13-2009, 11:26 PM
 
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My kid was a car screamer too at a young age--she would scream the entire time we were in the car, no matter if it was 5 minutes or 5 hours. She outgrew it and was RFing to 3.5. You can't really judge their future behavior based on how they are at 4 months old

ETA: you can see a picture of her RF'ing at 3.5 if you click on her name in my siggy

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#77 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 06:43 AM
 
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Glad to see this hit the main stream to give parents better information. Many think this is new information but it's far from new. The benefits have been known since 1965 and was discovered through space travel and also some extensive research in the military. It's no accident military transport planes had seats placed backwards ages ago. A Swedish researcher saw all this and though ti would work great for kids as well. You can read more about the background of how the rear facing thinking started in Sweden in 1965 here.

Swedes have been rear facing kid since 1965 and lead the world in research and usage. I sat rear facing in 1967 which I think is kind of cool:-) The recommendation here is for all children to sit rear facing until at least age 4 which many parents follow. Many kids sit rear facing longer than this although rarely longer than 5.

This is largely possible because of the Europe certified Swedish seats which have a high seat shell and also a max allowed weight of 55 lbs. It's unusual not to be able to rear face a kid until at least age 4.

There are many questions about ERF, you can find many answers here and also some myths over here. Most of the concerns of ERF are myths and not connected to reality:

Leg space: Many parens are concerned about leg space, both out of convenience and safety. All research show that a child sitting rear facing is at least as safe (actually safer) than a forward facing child. Lower extremeity injuries are common among FF children. Not so among RF children.

I live in the land of rear facing until age 4. I have never, not even once, heard a child complain about leg space. Kids like to sit with bent legs and it's simply not an issue. It CAN happen that a child is comfortable but it's so unusual that it can be disregarded. Parents are worried about leg space, not children.

It's always possible to have severe injuries also with RF kids. A car hitting a parked car at 50 mph is a big problem regardless of how a child is sitting. Kids in Sweden who die in traffic accidents often do so in unsurvivable accidents. In 2007 for example, two children died during the whole year in ages 0-6 despite sitting RF. One car ended up upside down in a river and the other one got crushed by a truck. Tragic but children would have died regardless of safety precautions.

Unhappy kids: Kids are as happy sitting RF as FF. Kids sit upright and can see out without any problems from an early age. Some kids, like my daughter, don't like to sit still. My daughter has been a screamer since birth. At around age 20 months she calmed down somewhat and accepted sitting still in the car. It had nothing to do with RF or FF, she just hates sitting still.

Some kids might not like riding in a car, this has rarely anything to do with FF or RF. In my experience, installing a seat more upright can make a large difference in a case a child is unhappy.

Car sick: Some kids get car sick although it's very rare. This usually had little to do with RF or FF but in some cases it may help to put a child FF. I've seen this over here very rarely.

ERF in different countries: Extended rear facing is the norm in Sweden. To see a 3 year old child FF is unusual. Another country which does fairly well is Norway. They are behind Sweden but still practice ERF better than any other country. Then there is a huge gap to Denmark and then simply a black hole to the next countries. Finland, probably the country with the best educated people in the world are terrible with RF.

The rest of Europe is simply terrible with ERF, it's comparable with US. Most European countries turn kids FF at 9-12 months because they don't know any better. Go furhter south (hello Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc.) and many kids sit unrestrained just like Latin America. There is a large change going on and I can't tell you have many emails I get every day from parents in countries all over the wold asking about rear facing and wanting to buy Swedish seats. Change takes time so patience is required. We'll get there eventually.


Safety difference: The difference between RF and FF up to 2 years of age is 500%. When reading about rear facing in most counties the impression is that the difference is 2% so I understand parents don't care much. Safety difference is less than 500% at age 3-5 but still huge. It may be 250, 300% or 400%, it's impossible to say. It's very clear that there is still a huge difference even at age 4. This can for example bee see in Swedish research and what happens when kids are turned around at age 4-ish. Injury rates go WAY up.

So far, over 1 million RF seats have been used in Sweden. So far, not one single child has been killed in a correctly installed rear facing car seat. This is a pretty convincing case for rear facing past 12 months.

Support leg in Swedish seats: Today, most Swedish seats have a foot prop to stabilize seat even further. What people don't know is that most manufacturers also test their seats unofficially without foot prop in case parents would forget/disregard foot prop. Most seats therefore pass official testing without foot prop even though it's better to use one.

There are two Swedish seats which does not sue a foot prop, Brio Zento and Britax Two-Way. Two-Way is a very popular seat which is installed rock solid without foot prop. It's the most popular seat together with Britax Multi tech outside of Sweden due to the very high seat shell and 55 bls weight limit. It means easy rear facing to age 4-5

Side impact collisions: Collisions from the side account for about 25% of accidents but are the most severe and dangerous since cars have little protection. RF makes a huge difference. A child in a RF seat is pushed further into the seat while colliding providing excellent protection. A child in a FF seat has the head thrown forward leaving in completely exposed in a collisions.

Side impact crashed even at low speeds such as 20 mph can be very severe and deadly.

Quesions about rear facing? Email me at hakan@carseat.se

Have a nice weekend! (and sorry about the long post.....)

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#78 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 12:03 PM
 
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I'm a little confused on the law of "adult seat belt permissible" as per this link that was posted. http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx#TX

On my state it says not permissible. Then on other states it says things like 8-15 years or something like that. What the heck does that mean? My 15 year old "child" would have to be in a car seat. That isn't very clear. I mean, if under a certain age we have to have them in a car seat, I get that but why would it say that and than say that an adult belt is not permissible. When is it ok by law? I don't get it.

Thanks. I hope my question makes sense.

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#79 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sarajane View Post
I'm a little confused on the law of "adult seat belt permissible" as per this link that was posted. http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx#TX

On my state it says not permissible. Then on other states it says things like 8-15 years or something like that. What the heck does that mean? My 15 year old "child" would have to be in a car seat. That isn't very clear. I mean, if under a certain age we have to have them in a car seat, I get that but why would it say that and than say that an adult belt is not permissible. When is it ok by law? I don't get it.

Thanks. I hope my question makes sense.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/directo...n/pr060209.pdf

Children 8 and over can use the adult seatbelt. Children who are under 8 but meet the height requirement can use the adult seatbelt as well. Children who do not meet the height requirement but have reached 8 yrs old age can use the adult seatbelt.

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#80 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarajane View Post
I'm a little confused on the law of "adult seat belt permissible" as per this link that was posted. http://www.iihs.org/laws/childrestraint.aspx#TX

On my state it says not permissible. Then on other states it says things like 8-15 years or something like that. What the heck does that mean? My 15 year old "child" would have to be in a car seat. That isn't very clear. I mean, if under a certain age we have to have them in a car seat, I get that but why would it say that and than say that an adult belt is not permissible. When is it ok by law? I don't get it.

Thanks. I hope my question makes sense.
TBH, I think that info is pretty poorly presented. I looked up the specific law in my state to get more accurate info.

I think that "not permissible" thing applies only the the children covered under the states child safety law. For example, in my state children under 16 are covered by the law, so in that column it says 8 to 15 because children over 8 can use a seat belt only. But if your states law only covers say up to 7, then that column would say "not permissible" meaning children under 7 may not use a seat belt because they must be in a car seat booster. If that makes any sense at all. :

Either way, just look up the exact law to get clarification.

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#81 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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I see, thanks!

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#82 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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Great post, AdventureDad

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#83 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
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TBH, I think that info is pretty poorly presented. I looked up the specific law in my state to get more accurate info.
I agree, it's not the best, you should just look up your state's laws on car seats and belts. I posted it more because it has a brief overview of all of the states' laws in a somewhat easy to read manner.

Great post, AdventureDad!!

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#84 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 03:03 PM
 
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Great info guys! My daughter is 13 months and 22 lbs. At her one year check up I just mentioned to her that the car seat rule had changed and that we are supposed to keep child rear facing till they were 2. I had read it on here and I thought you guys had said that was the recommendation by the AAP. She advised me that she heard that rumor, but when she looked on the AAP site there was no mention of that, so she said it was OK for me to put her FF now. I was all excited because I'm thinking "Great, now I can see her!!". So anyways, she's been FF now for a month and she and I have been loving it. Now this confirms that it is safer and my original idea was correct.

I'm going to change her to RR today because car safety comes FIRST!! Thanks guys.

Does anyone know what the weight limit for RFing is on the Britax Boulevard convertible carseat? I can 't seem to find my manual (I think my hubby put it somewhere when he installed the carseat even though I told him over and over again to leave it with the carseat!!, ugh!!!
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#85 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 03:18 PM
 
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If you bought yours recently, it's probably 35#. It used to be 33#. Check the stickers on the side of the seat.

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#86 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 03:22 PM
 
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http://www.britaxusa.com/car-seats/boulevard

If it is an older seat then I don't know.

Stay at home wife to Jason for 7 years Mama to Larissa Mae 2 years old :, Gavin Clay 7 months :, and Neveah Ann April 24, 2005 to July 13, 2007 ED for my food allergic babe. :::
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#87 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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Awesome guys, thank you sooo much!! She's 22 lbs so she will be good for a while.

I just emailed the GMA link to my pediatrician. Maybe she already saw it, but just in case.

One more quick question:

The way our car is (back seat is sooo straight up and down, not reclined at all) the carseat was too upright for her in the Rear facing position and she had hardly any leg room (plus her head was falling forward). The CHP officer who checked our carseat said it was ok and safer to have a rolled up towel underneath the car seat (near the seatbelt side) in order to recline the seat more. This worked perfectly and reclined the seat a little and gave her way more leg room. Just wanted to check in with you guys (since you do a lot of research) to see if this seems safe to you. The carseat is still very tightly secured (not moving more than 1").

Thanks!
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#88 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 05:20 PM
 
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Wow! I didn't know!
yikes. Both my ds's turned ff at one and dd who is 9 months would have followed suit in a few months.
thanks for all the great info.

quick question ds2 who is 3 1/4 and 34 lbs is ff in a marathon can I rf him in that seat still?

Unschooling, wannabe farmers with DP, DS1 (02), DS2 (06), and DD (08) on The Farm by the sea. And maker of SuzysBeesWraps

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#89 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 05:21 PM
 
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Yes it is fine to use a noodle or towel if needed, although I rarely find them necessary with Britax seats. Watch to make sure the seat itsn't over-reclined (past 45*). Also, the Britax seats just have less legroom than other seats.

CPST & mom

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#90 of 102 Old 06-14-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by love bug View Post
Wow! I didn't know!
yikes. Both my ds's turned ff at one and dd who is 9 months would have followed suit in a few months.
thanks for all the great info.

quick question ds2 who is 3 1/4 and 34 lbs is ff in a marathon can I rf him in that seat still?
In that Marathon,probably not. The 2009 models have a 35 lb weight limits but before that they had 33 pound weight limits. The new Graco seat has a 40 lb weight limit though

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