Baby bucket car seats toddering on the top of shopping carts - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-30-2009, 10:59 AM
 
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What's the AAP's official recommendation on co-sleeping?

I ask because it seems like their recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own, like letting 4yos drive quads without helmets...
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:36 AM
 
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What's the AAP's official recommendation on co-sleeping?

I ask because it seems like their recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own, like letting 4yos drive quads without helmets...
: The AAP is not high on my list of people I take advice from. Look at all the vaccines my children would have if I did!

Either you trust an organization or you don't. You can't pick over the information you like and quote it but say Oh no, they don't know what they are talking about with other things. I don't trust the AAP so their recommendations mean nothing to me.
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:05 PM
 
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: The AAP is not high on my list of people I take advice from. Look at all the vaccines my children would have if I did!

Either you trust an organization or you don't. You can't pick over the information you like and quote it but say Oh no, they don't know what they are talking about with other things. I don't trust the AAP so their recommendations mean nothing to me.
*shrugs* I strongly disagree. I have never met any person or known of any organization ever that I agreed 100% with. So if I followed the above then I'd never believe in anything that I'm advised by someone else or by an organization.

I think that you look at the research behind whatever is being said to lead to the recommendation, you use common sense, and then you apply it to your own situation to see what makes sense to you/for you.

For instance I don't vaccinate my children at all. The WHO recommends I do. I looked at the research and weighed pros and cons for my family and I disagree with their stance that everyone should do it. That doesn't for one moment stop me from quoting their recommendation to breastfeed for two years minimum.

I don't come close to agreeing with the AAP on everything. But some things I do agree with and I say so and will use their recommendations sometimes when someone asks me where I get my information.

To me saying that you have to agree with everything or agree with nothing is totally unrealistic.

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Old 09-30-2009, 03:10 PM
 
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To me saying that you have to agree with everything or agree with nothing is totally unrealistic.
Well we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree with this. To me it looks hypocritical to quote them for one thing and say they are full of crap for another.

And again, in the early 90's infant seats were SPECIFICALLY MADE to clip onto the cart. There was no other purpose for that clip. So to say that they weren't made to do that, it's just a coincidence is really untrue.
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:18 PM
 
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Well we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't agree with this. To me it looks hypocritical to quote them for one thing and say they are full of crap for another.

And again, in the early 90's infant seats were SPECIFICALLY MADE to clip onto the cart. There was no other purpose for that clip. So to say that they weren't made to do that, it's just a coincidence is really untrue.
*shrugs* I reiterate I don't know any person or any organization I can agree with 100%. If you do that's great, but I'm betting I'm not alone by a long shot in not feeling like I can.

As for infant seats in the 90's if you read the thread I never said they weren't. In fact, I didn't even say that I think that tipping is the biggest risk to children in infant seats in a cart. I still maintain that the biggest risk is positional asphyxia and lowered oxygen saturations. I will say that on that note we didn't know in the early 90's about those things what we do now so that they were designed for that then means absolutely nothing to me at all.

Formula was touted as better for baby than breastmilk to my grandmother when she had her kids. They really believed it when they were telling her that. It doesn't make it true. We now know how untrue it was. It doesn't change what was then or what is true now *shrugs*

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Old 09-30-2009, 03:22 PM
 
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*shrugs* I reiterate I don't know any person or any organization I can agree with 100%. If you do that's great, but I'm betting I'm not alone by a long shot in not feeling like I can.

As for infant seats in the 90's if you read the thread I never said they weren't. In fact, I didn't even say that I think that tipping is the biggest risk to children in infant seats in a cart. I still maintain that the biggest risk is positional asphyxia and lowered oxygen saturations. I will say that on that note we didn't know in the early 90's about those things what we do now so that they were designed for that then means absolutely nothing to me at all.

Formula was touted as better for baby than breastmilk to my grandmother when she had her kids. They really believed it when they were telling her that. It doesn't make it true. We now know how untrue it was. It doesn't change what was then or what is true now *shrugs*
I didn't say YOU said that.. but others in this thread have. I was addressing them in that part of my post.

As for the formula I was told in 1999 that it didn't matter, one was just as good as the other by my ped.

I still don't agree it is a bad thing to clip them on the cart... so again.. we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:18 PM
 
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I meant, in a bucket seat, on the part of the cart where you'd normally put, say, a 24-box of soda pop.

I would like to say that I find that also dangerous, and have never done it, BUT- it would be better to be there, than on the top of the cart, in case of a topple.
LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.

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Old 09-30-2009, 05:40 PM
 
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There were lots of infant seats with bases in the early 1990's.

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Old 09-30-2009, 06:02 PM
 
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LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.
I'm wondering the same. And I cannot imagine loading up a cart full of groceries hovering literally inches over my baby's face. Eeeeks!
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Old 09-30-2009, 09:05 PM
 
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I just wanted to add that I did lots of things with my 13 yr old DS and that I now do differently with my 2 mo. old DD.
Lots of changes/safety advances are made over the years..Carseats, strollers, cribs, etc. have all changed! They have 5 pt. harnesses vs 3 pt. harnesses from years ago.
IMC, My DD is either worn (for longer trips) or placed in the large basket of the cart (for quick runs). I too feel safer with her strapped into the carseat vs perched in the attached seat on the cart. It's a judgement call that we must make as individuals

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Old 09-30-2009, 09:09 PM
 
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There were lots of infant seats with bases in the early 1990's.
I never saw any and mine did not have one, but it was made to clip on the cart. It said so right in the manual and on the seat.

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I just wanted to add that I did lots of things with my 13 yr old DS and that I now do differently with my 2 mo. old DD.
Lots of changes/safety advances are made over the years..Carseats, strollers, cribs, etc. have all changed! They have 5 pt. harnesses vs 3 pt. harnesses from years ago.
IMC, My DD is either worn (for longer trips) or placed in the large basket of the cart (for quick runs). I too feel safer with her strapped into the carseat vs perched in the attached seat on the cart. It's a judgement call that we must make as individuals
While this is true, I think many of the safety advances aren't so much safety advances, but the PTB telling us what to do becuase some people are too stupid to think for themselves. I think our society is way to afraid of every little thing and we just need to LIVE. You can't pad the whole world.
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:12 AM
 
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LOL This has me cracking up. I want to see someone putting their baby under the cart. I can't even imagine a bucket seat would come close to fitting there.
Really? I almost was able to fit my daughter's sit-n-stroll (without her in it, she was being worn) down there and I thought at the time, gosh, if only we had a bucket seat! I guess I estimated wrong. Or more likely there are just different sized carts out there and we're talking about different ones.

Considering that the groceries aren't likely to crash THROUGH the cart, I still would prefer to put a bucket down there than on top of the cart. But I'm not holding my breath for anyone like the AAP to make that the official recommendation.

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It said so right in the manual and on the seat.
Well, that was a huge mistake on their part, then. I'm not at all surprised that there are no such seats in circulation now!

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Old 10-01-2009, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:05 PM
 
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To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).
I highly suspect most of those cases were kids hanging to the sides of the cart, thus flipping it over onto themselves. Of course, I can't prove this, but it seems likely.
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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Since this thread started I've been to a couple different stores. I honestly tried to tip the cart over & it was incredibly difficult to do. I really think maybe it is more to do with different cart designs than anything.

When it comes right down to it everyone needs to decide what their risk taking threshold is (sounds like we're bungy jumping!). Does it happen - yes. Is it enough of a risk for me to worry over it - that's where the decision is.

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Old 10-01-2009, 03:33 PM
 
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If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.
We have a Chicco Keyfit 30 & they are specifically made so that they do NOT fit on top of the shopping carts b/c it is not safe.

When dd was an infant, we did not have a bucket specifically b/c we felt that she deserved to be carried in arms, not in a plastic bucket. We own one now b/c our last dfd did much better in the car in the recline of a bucket than she did in a convertible. We always took both of our kids out of the seats, every time, sleeping or not. The seats that are bolted to the carts sit farther back over the basket. I, personally, have never seen a cart tip, but I would still not put a car seat in the baby seat of a cart.

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Old 10-01-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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To me, the fact that an infant seat would have clips is NOT proof that this practice is safe. Remember that after-market products are sold that go on car seats, many of which are not a good idea.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69545

This is the idea that if they sell it, it must be safe, similar to the idea that "everybody does it", than by default, there must never be any accidents.

Even if you don't agree on everything that AAP comes out with, you have to admit that 24,000 is a lot of injured children due to shopping carts! (wish they had a breakdown but they simply say most were under age 5).
I know a child who was about one. She stood up when her mom had her back turned and face dived onto WalMarts floor. This was just before they started putting belts on those seats, (belts which I never use because my 2 year old screams if I do.) Does it say how many of those 24,000 injuries were due to the cart tipping because the infant seat makes it top heavy? Or doe sit just say injuries? I am sure there are many many ways a child can be injured by a shopping cart. I seriously doubt the vast majority of them have anything to do with an infant seat.

Random statistics with no breakdowns are meaningless.
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Old 10-01-2009, 05:38 PM
 
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The point about those studies are that when you fall onto a hard floor, you can get really hurt, especially when your head is soft.

With the buckets, the baby's head is softer, and the baby is higher, than with a toddler in the seat in the cart. So...

Regardless of whether or not MOST of the injuries are specifically due to the buckets, it's just clear that it's not safe, and never was, no matter what a car-seat manufacturer said. It's common sense, really- don't put your baby on top of a really tall object, especially not over a hard floor.

And this is not a random statistic- it shows that thousands of children are injured annually by being put on top of carts. So putting your child on top of a cart is a bad idea. How could "higher and more vulnerable" possibly be better?

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Old 10-01-2009, 05:39 PM
 
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I know a child who was about one. She stood up when her mom had her back turned and face dived onto WalMarts floor. This was just before they started putting belts on those seats, (belts which I never use because my 2 year old screams if I do.) Does it say how many of those 24,000 injuries were due to the cart tipping because the infant seat makes it top heavy? Or doe sit just say injuries? I am sure there are many many ways a child can be injured by a shopping cart. I seriously doubt the vast majority of them have anything to do with an infant seat.

Random statistics with no breakdowns are meaningless.
I agree. I'll bet that most of those injuries were caused because the children were mobile. Kids climbing on carts, hanging on carts, standing in the baskets and flipping out, standing in the built-in seat areas, getting their heads and necks wedged between the part of the cart that folds into itself when they are stacked in line, etc.

If I had only two options - to use a built-in infant seat on a cart or my own infant carrier, I'd pick the carrier hands-down. IF the child is harnessed correctly and the handle is left up, almost any baby falling from a cart tipping will be cushioned in his/her seat. The head should not strike the ground and most carriers now have foam to absorb the impact.

On the other hand, if my cart tipped with my infant in a built-in seat, I could bet the injuries would be terrible.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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The point about those studies are that when you fall onto a hard floor, you can get really hurt, especially when your head is soft.

With the buckets, the baby's head is softer, and the baby is higher, than with a toddler in the seat in the cart. So...

Regardless of whether or not MOST of the injuries are specifically due to the buckets, it's just clear that it's not safe, and never was, no matter what a car-seat manufacturer said. It's common sense, really- don't put your baby on top of a really tall object, especially not over a hard floor.

And this is not a random statistic- it shows that thousands of children are injured annually by being put on top of carts. So putting your child on top of a cart is a bad idea. How could "higher and more vulnerable" possibly be better?
I think you left something out, it is common sense not to put your baby on a tall object (carts aren't really tall btw.. where have you been shopping?) UNSECURED. The seats are secured onto the cart. They clip on there.. they fit snuggly and I for one am confidant that the baby is safe baring some strange accident such as the roof falling on them, or something else very dramatic.

As for the built in seats. they are higher than any of the buckets I have ever seen.. not lower. And besides that.. those things are GROSS. I mean my goodness.. think of all the pee, and drool and other stranger funk that is all over them. At least in the built in seats I know my toddler is not LAYING in someone else's funk. They also put their fingers in their mouths less often at that age. Those things have always just totally grossed me out and I am not a germ phobic. I never use the wipes at the store for the carts.

As for it being clear.. it is not clear to me. You are free to make that choice for your family, however I really believe that many things are blown way out of proportion in the name of "safety."

ETA: Missed your last paragraph. They ARE random statistics. It does not say that 24,000 children are injured becuase of car seats being placed on the cart. This is exactly what it says.
Quote:
In a policy statement, the American Academy of Pediatrics estimates more than 24,000 children were treated in the U.S. for shopping cart-related injuries in 2005.
The fact that it doesn't break down how many children in car seats were injured makes it random. And their suggestions are ridiculous and I wont be following them.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:33 PM
 
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I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).
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Old 10-01-2009, 07:08 PM
 
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And their suggestions are ridiculous and I wont be following them.
I agree the suggestions were ridiculous. Bring along someone else every time? Always find a sitter? Pull a wagon AND push the cart? Push a stroller AND push the cart? Obviously the AAP thinks all parents have four arms and only one or two kids.

It's all about common sense. When I have to place my carrier in the cart, I always hold onto it. ALWAYS. Even if it latched onto the cart (it doesn't), I'd hang on to it. I also always have my child strapped in securely. Not every parent you may see doing this isn't a thoughtless one.

Most of the time when baby comes into the store in his carrier, he's in the basket part anyway - which the AAP also advises against.
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Old 10-01-2009, 07:13 PM
 
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I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).
I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?

I've also seen kids fall out of highchairs, fall out of strollers, fall off swings (very high up in the air) and tumble head first down stairs. That doesn't mean everyone should avoid placing their kids in highchairs, strollers, swings or letting them walk on stairs, it just means that some caution is involved and it is done as safely as possible.

I agree that a heck of a lot of parents don't *think* cautiously. Lots of people have the "It won't happen to me" mentality.

But not everyone thinks like this.

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...it seems like their [AAP's] recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own...
Exactly.
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:53 PM
 
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I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?
I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:09 PM
 
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I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.
It would also seem to be common sense to make sure the seat wasn't wobbly in the first place. The one we had fit in there tight.. and clipped on.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's still not a good idea to place it on top of a shopping cart, clip or no clip. It just takes one bump and that supposedly tight clip can just snap out. It's simply aren't safe.
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:49 PM
 
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If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.
I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.

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Old 10-02-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by funkymamajoy View Post
I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.
Not when they originally started doing it. My car seat did not have a base, but it had the clips and the bottoms was shaped in such a way as to fit in the cart snuggly. It also had stickers by the clips that showed how it should be attached to the cart. Now this was back in 93. I don't even remember the name of the car seat. The one I had in 98 did have a base and I can't remember if it used the same clips or not, however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.
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Old 10-03-2009, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.

It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.
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