Can we discuss harnessed vs. booster? ETA a couple more points of discussion - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aniT View Post
What on earth is that supposed to mean??
"Submarining" is used to describe what happens when a person slides out from under the lap belt portion of the seatbelt.

Submarining used to be extremely common with lap-only belts. It's still a risk with booster riders who are too small.

A less substantial problem is just the butt scooting forward enough that the seatbelt rises on the abdomen. The anti-submarine guard prevents that as well.

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#32 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 06:08 PM
 
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Brandi, my son was in a BPB when he was that height and weight. I don't recall that he fell asleep in the car often, but when he did, his head flopped onto the side wings of the booster seat. If this is a potentially deadly problem, then I'm very glad he survived it - but it doesn't seem like it could be.

IIRC, the Frontier can be used as a booster. Why not buckle him up, drive around the block, and see how he reacts? You don't have to commit to either course of action (using a booster or buying a new seat) until you see how YOUR SPECIFIC KID reacts to being buckled. My ds is not a bender/leaner/belt yanker, and never had been. My dd will go to junior high in a harnessed seat unless she becomes equally reliable about keeping her belt positioned. And she knows this
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#33 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 06:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bandgeek View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this. ALL of the harness heights are usable on a frontier. It's only the cosco/dorel convertibles and combos with the harness that slides up that you can't use the top one (with the exception of the newer ones that go to 50 lbs that is).
Yes, what you said is true, but the booster portion of the frontier goes higher than the harness does. i'm sure that's what she meant, even though it was worded a little confusingly. Once you get to the top slots on a frontier, you can then pull a screw out of the headrest, and pull the headrest up even FURTHER, for booster mode only.

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#34 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 06:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aniT View Post
What on earth is that supposed to mean??

5)

I'm ROFL here.

I know what submarining is, (I'm a tech), but when phrased that way, and with your "WTF?" response, it made me laugh SO hard. Now I'm picturing little submarines and trying to figure out how on earth a carseat could provide protection against one....*sigh* it's one of those things that isn't funny to anyone but me, but i'm in hysterics!

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#35 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post

I'm ROFL here.

I know what submarining is, (I'm a tech), but when phrased that way, and with your "WTF?" response, it made me laugh SO hard. Now I'm picturing little submarines and trying to figure out how on earth a carseat could provide protection against one....*sigh* it's one of those things that isn't funny to anyone but me, but i'm in hysterics!

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#36 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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Also, a little known but TRUE fact...the Britax Parkway SlideGuard provides anti-tank defenses and also, air support. Scout's honor.

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#37 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 07:49 PM
 
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Ok, so how do these "anti-submarine" clips work? (pics possibly?) DD is a long and very lean girl. I've told her that she can switch to a booster when she's 5.5 (so next winter) but at the rate she gains weight, she'll just be at 40lbs by then. So I'm thinking I might want a booster for her that offers this "anti-submarine" feature.

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#38 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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Do you think I should spend the money to keep him harnessed past his 4th birthday if he ends up growing another half inch or so? Or would it even be worth the money because there's only an inch and a half difference? I want him to be as safe as possible, but we just bought this seat in July because he grew out of his Decathalon.
I personally would spend the $150 to keep him harnessed in the Nautilus. You need to also keep in mind that once the harness is outgrown it makes a wonderful booster. My ds will be 4 in a few weeks and has just moved to the top slots on the Nautilus. When we first got the Nautilus I compared the height of it used as a booster to the height of my dd's turbo booster. The Nautilus has a higher back by at least an inch. Her booster is gone now as it is past the expiration date so I can't check the heights for sure.

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#39 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetcheeks View Post
Ok, so how do these "anti-submarine" clips work? (pics possibly?) DD is a long and very lean girl. I've told her that she can switch to a booster when she's 5.5 (so next winter) but at the rate she gains weight, she'll just be at 40lbs by then. So I'm thinking I might want a booster for her that offers this "anti-submarine" feature.
It's just a crotch strap. It secures on the booster where a regular crotch strap on a harnessed seat would, and 'clips' onto the lap belt between the child's legs, forcing it to stay low on the thighs.

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#40 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 08:41 PM
 
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I personally would spend the $150 to keep him harnessed in the Nautilus
I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.

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#41 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 08:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.
NOPE!
The nauti is higher.

There are varying reports on this, and different people measure differently, and different children fit differently into the seats, and sometimes the vehicle in which the seat is installed makes a difference, but the vast majority of people get more room in a nautilus over a frontier. Both top slots are about 18.25 inches...(not sure who told you 17.5 for the nauti) although again, that sort of depends on who is measuring.

I have pics somewhere.........but my dd definitely has more room in her nauti. At worst, they are even. There have only ever been a small handful of people to ever say they get more room in a frontier, and then only by a tad, and again...only a couple. everyone else gets equal room, or more room in the nauti.

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#42 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 08:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
There are varying reports on this, and different people measure differently, and different children fit differently into the seats, and sometimes the vehicle in which the seat is installed makes a difference, but the vast majority of people get more room in a nautilus over a frontier. Both top slots are about 18.25 inches...(not sure who told you 17.5 for the nauti) although again, that sort of depends on who is measuring.
I found the info at Elite Car Seats where I've purchased seats before. They've been accurate about everything so far, but I have no doubt that there are potential variations in measurements like you mentioned

Either way though, it seems since the PP already has a Frontier that it might be kind of a waste to buy another seat that may or may not be able to be used harnessed any longer.

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#43 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 09:04 PM
 
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I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.
Where'd you read that? Definitely not true. The Nautilus measures at just a hair above 18", and the Frontier a hair below that.

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#44 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 09:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Maedze View Post
Where'd you read that? Definitely not true. The Nautilus measures at just a hair above 18", and the Frontier a hair below that.
Maybe we cross posted. I found it at elitecarseats,com.

ETA - Britax states the Frontier slots are 18.25 .

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#45 of 59 Old 10-27-2009, 09:08 PM
 
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Yep, we cross posted.

I've seen other errors in information on elitecarseats, and would take what they have to say with a grain of salt or three.

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#46 of 59 Old 10-29-2009, 10:46 PM
 
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There is no standard or regulation for side impact protection. Terms like True Side Impact Protection are developed in the marketing department, not the engineering department. I do prefer deeper wings and body protection when possible, but it doesn't matter to me if they have a special name like "TSIP".
I am a big HBB person for sleeping for sure, but did anyone else get that new study about there being no statistical difference between backless and HB boosters? My local safekids sent it to me last week I think. I wouldn't have predicted that.

I am in the camp thinking that a TETHERED harnessed seat and a properly used booster are about equivalent. I think for my kids personally I will transition between 6 and 7, but I'm not there yet so I don't know for sure. The tether makes a huge difference in terms of head excursion which is the biggest issue with heavy kids in harnesses.

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#47 of 59 Old 10-29-2009, 10:48 PM
 
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Oh and as for the submarine clip, I definitely don't see any harm in the slightest, and can see some improvement in very small boostered kids. For a kid that I would really think is developmentally appropriate, I see no big advantage.

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#48 of 59 Old 10-29-2009, 11:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by *Karen* View Post
I am a big HBB person for sleeping for sure, but did anyone else get that new study about there being no statistical difference between backless and HB boosters? My local safekids sent it to me last week I think. I wouldn't have predicted that.
I saw it briefly, but haven't had time to go through it yet. I wonder what boosters they used? Because I'd actually agree that there isn't much difference between the (for instance) Cosco HBB and a backless and in fact, I'd prefer most backlesses because of the way they position the lap belt. But if they tested (again, an example) a Recaro Vivo and came to those conclusions, I'd have to do a whole lot of rethinking.

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#49 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 12:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
I saw it briefly, but haven't had time to go through it yet. I wonder what boosters they used? Because I'd actually agree that there isn't much difference between the (for instance) Cosco HBB and a backless and in fact, I'd prefer most backlesses because of the way they position the lap belt. But if they tested (again, an example) a Recaro Vivo and came to those conclusions, I'd have to do a whole lot of rethinking.
Very true, and I am interested in the same thing.

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#50 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 01:21 AM
 
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The new "study" wasn't actual testing done with any seats, it was real life crash data they used to determine the results. Real life crash data from the last 15 years. ya.
We all know the vast majority of "highback" boosters that were likely to have been used by most of the mainsteram public....crappy cosco highbacks, cargos, chases, summits and dorel 3-in-1s in booster mode probably would have been a SIGNIFICANT portion of the HB boosters included in the crash data...also probably some turbos and evenflos, etc. And god only know the kind of misuse there might have been...
I wish the full details of teh study were available, but I don't have a script to pediatrics...

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#51 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 07:51 AM
 
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Chickabiddy has provided very nice and well educated answers

Older children, 4+, are not any safer in harnessed seats compared to high back boosters. There is no data, statistics or real life experiences showing this. It's a myth. People who work with car seats and have a deeper knowledge know this very well. So does all researchers. There is no benefit for harnessing older kids unless there are special needs.

A FF harnessed seat offer good protection just as a high back booster. It's nowhere near as good as rear facing but both methods are approved and work well.

The Swedes, who are 30 years ahead of other countries in car seat safety, recommend against harnessing older kids. No kids sit FF in harnessed seats, everyone uses a high back booster. The safety stats, which does include many more factors than pure car seat use, are simply amazing.

The discussion about harnessing vs. booster is in my opinion a little unfortunate since more focus should instead be on RF vs. FF where the safety difference is 500% in favor of RF.

My son sat Rf to 4+ and then moved to a BPB (Britax Kid Plus), sitting nicely has never been a problem. My daughter is now just over 3 and will sit RF for at least another year and will then move to a BPB.

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My understanding is that harnessed is safer for everyone even adults. That is why race car drives are harnessed.
Not correct. Race car drivers have almost nothing in common with kids in FF harnessed seats. Children have weak neck muscles and can't be compared with adults. Race car drivers also use extra neck protection/harness.

Another huge difference is the ride-down time in a collision. A race car drivers seat is bolted to the body of the car. A FF harnessed seat for a child adds another level of mounting which means ride down time is very different. A child is normally calculated as being stopped in 60 ms (milliseconds) in a collision. In a FF harnessed seat a child move forward during those first 30 ms which means forces are huge during those last 30 ms which has to absorb all the forces. It's kind of technical (and boring for most) discussion which could go on forever.

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1. Harnessing is better because it just seems obvious that more protection is better. I often see race car drivers mentioned here as well as a specific youtube video but no hard evidence.
Not correct. Crash dynamics in a ff harnessed seat are completely different. It looks far better in a video but what most parents feel is the weakness of a HBB is actually the strength. A larger part of a child's body absorb the forces.

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I've never really seen anyone come out strongly against extended harnessing, at least not for safety reasons. Usually it's more about social issues, thinking it's overkill, etc.
It's not used in Sweden but I personally think protection is still good. There is no reason to avoid FF harnessing. HBB does have other factors which are beneficial for safety. They are cheaper, easier to install, easier to move, etc.

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The child must weight at least forty pounds.
This is the law in some places but has little effect on overall safety. Age is the important factor, not weight. There is no difference in safety for a normal child who is 35 or 45 lbs.

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#52 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 07:54 AM
 
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No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.
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#53 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 08:34 AM
 
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The discussion about harnessing vs. booster is in my opinion a little unfortunate since more focus should instead be on RF vs. FF where the safety difference is 500% in favor of RF.
Absolutely. This should always be mentioned.

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It's not used in Sweden but I personally think protection is still good. There is no reason to avoid FF harnessing. HBB does have other factors which are beneficial for safety. They are cheaper, easier to install, easier to move, etc.
I think this is the key. Is it doing any HARM to have the extra protection for a child not developmentally appropriate? I have no stats, just opinions, but I think that with a properly tethered seat that there is no harm done and no stress to make sure the kid isn't bouncing all over the car.

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The new "study" wasn't actual testing done with any seats, it was real life crash data they used to determine the results. Real life crash data from the last 15 years. ya.
We all know the vast majority of "highback" boosters that were likely to have been used by most of the mainsteram public....crappy cosco highbacks, cargos, chases, summits and dorel 3-in-1s in booster mode probably would have been a SIGNIFICANT portion of the HB boosters included in the crash data...also probably some turbos and evenflos, etc. And god only know the kind of misuse there might have been...
I wish the full details of teh study were available, but I don't have a script to pediatrics...
I remember this now. But this in and of itself is very interesting. If you want to go cheap, just go backless.

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No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.
I think it is very relevant, as what we are discussing is if these upper price boosters really provide the side impact protection that they claim. Since this is from the general public, and the general public does not purchase these types of boosters there is no way to tell. That helps to tell us that we still don't have an answer, but at least it tells us something.

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#54 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 09:14 AM
 
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This is the law in some places but has little effect on overall safety. Age is the important factor, not weight. There is no difference in safety for a normal child who is 35 or 45 lbs.
As I have said numerous times, this is not true. While I appreciate your zeal for extended rear facing, and your point that a booster or a forward facing harnessed seat are both safe for an older child, there are studies showing increased risk for a young boostered child under 40 pounds.

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#55 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 09:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamadelbosque View Post
No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.

You are extrapolating incorrectly and it is EXTREMELY relevant, because no CPS technician (or IIHS for that matter) would ever recommend using a Cosco high back booster, because, frankly, they ARE crappy and they aren't safe.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that studies would show no substantial improvement in safety, when people insist on using these things as 'high backs'.

On the other hand it does NOT cost 200 dollars to get a safe dedicated high back booster. In fact, there is only ONE on the market that costs over that (or anywhere near it) and it's only been available for two months.

One of the best dedicated boosters is the Graco Turbobooster (high back) which is routinely available for less than fifty.

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#56 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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And an Evenflo Triumph Advance or Graco MyRide ($120) plus a Graco Turbobooster ($45) costs about the same as a "crappy" Dorel 3-in-1 ($170) -- but the first combination will fit properly and keep children well-protected from birth to seatbelt age, while the 3-in-1 definitely will not (does not fit newborns, does not keep kids harnessed to safe booster age/size, does not make a good-fitting booster, does not keep kids boostered until a safe age/size to use a seatbelt).

The techs who post here are parents too, and (AFAIK) not independently wealthy. We understand the challenges of budgeting all too well.

That these are the seats that "the vast majority" uses -- well, that's why we are posting. There are safer alternatives.

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#57 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 10:05 AM
 
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I think this is the key. Is it doing any HARM to have the extra protection for a child not developmentally appropriate? I have no stats, just opinions, but I think that with a properly tethered seat that there is no harm done and no stress to make sure the kid isn't bouncing all over the car.
Personally, the reason I emphasize teaching that boostering (when physically and developmentally appropriate, etc.) is a safe and appropriate choice is because I see quite a few kids stuffed into harnessed seats that they have outgrown -- usually by height -- becuase "harnessing is always safer".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with harnessing a bigger kid in a properly-fitting and top tethered seat. It is a fine choice. But it is not inherently safer than a good high-backed booster. And without question, a properly used booster is SAFER than an outgrown harnessed seat.

I want parents to be not so scared of boosters. They do what they are supposed to and they keep kids safe.

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#58 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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Personally, the reason I emphasize teaching that boostering (when physically and developmentally appropriate, etc.) is a safe and appropriate choice is because I see quite a few kids stuffed into harnessed seats that they have outgrown -- usually by height -- becuase "harnessing is always safer".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with harnessing a bigger kid in a properly-fitting and top tethered seat. It is a fine choice. But it is not inherently safer than a good high-backed booster. And without question, a properly used booster is SAFER than an outgrown harnessed seat.

I want parents to be not so scared of boosters. They do what they are supposed to and they keep kids safe.
Absolutely. I completely agree. In cases where a seat is going to be moved frequently, I always recommend a booster unless the person knows how to get it in right every time in every car. An improperly installed seat is just that, improper.

People only look at weight as a limit. No one seems to understand why I recommend the Nautilus to so many people, they have a hard time wrapping their heads around harness height. All we can do is spread the word and try to help as many people as we can.

And I think the turbo booster fits most kids VERY well and costs $50.

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#59 of 59 Old 10-30-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamadelbosque View Post
No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.
Wow..that's..a really odd way to misinterpret what I said.

I don't just "think" that they are crappy..they ARE crappy. That's not an opinion. And that is WHY I am a tech, to help get the word out that those seats are NOT good choices for boosters, because otherwise..how are parents to know?

As has already been said, one GREAT booster that is both widely available in almost all major stores, and is very cheap, is the Graco turbobooster.
The one *MY daughter* is riding in I got on sale at Big Lots for $25. Because no, I am NOT independently wealthy. In fact, my children have ridden in literally *THE* cheapest seats on the market. But the important thing is that these seats have been appropriate for the size and age of child, they have been installed correctly, and they have been used correctly.

It is absoutely possible to keep your child SAFE for less money, IF you know what seats to pick, which ones are a good value and will last a long time and do what needs to be done, and aren't overpriced or stupid due to low slots, a poor booster fit, or some other quirk.
That's why I try to help parents rigfht from the beginning, so they don't make a $150 mistake by buying a seat which is a REALLY bad choice.
In fact, I have written a number of informative posts about how exactly you can keep your child the safest, for the longest, using the least amount of money.
I WAS that parent who went to the store, not knowing much, and bought a seat off the shelf. Turned out to be an AWFUL choice, and was outgrown super quickly, and I wasted all that money on a convertible, only to have to buy another one...and another one...because I kept making the wrong choices. Because I did NOT understand about how the top slot height often has more to do with when a seat is outgrown that the stated weight limit. I didn't understand how shell height relates to Rearfacing time. I didn't understand how the FIT of the booster is what matters, and that many boosters on the market do NOT place the vehicle belts correctly, therefore completely negating the entire purpose of the booster in the first place!

But I researched, and learned, and eventually became certified as a tech, and now I try to help other parents. So they DON'T make those same mistakes, so they DON'T waste their money on seats that won't last very long, or that aren't appropriate for their child or vehicle, or that are CRAPPY at what they supposedly do.

chickabiddy said it all more eloquently and concisely than I did..that's one of her many talents. But despite my lesser conversational skills, I am also passionate and skilled and experienced, and i want children to be as safe as possible. And with education and help, most parents can make better choices, so that more kids are safer.

Trust me..I am NOT out there advocating mythical $200 boosters, I'm trying to let people know when big lots gets them for $25. I *do* understand.

CPST
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