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#61 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 03:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nudhistbudhist View Post
If everyone was telling me to CIO and formula feed, should I do that too??
People are often misinformed!!!!
They certainly are.

I'm not, though. Neither are the others suggesting what I suggested about the dog.
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#62 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:01 PM
 
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I just said I'm keeping them separated.
you seem to be annoyed that people are thinking you are not doing enough, but the truth is, you aren't doing enough. the dog has bit your child more than once, and has also bit you and you are "getting a trainier". the second your dog bit your child the first time, you should have been on the phone calling around for and hiring a trainer. you seems to be dragging your feet on that, so yes, people are going to assume you are not being 100% diligent in the effort to keep your child safe.

you have already let this problem go on too long and that is going to make it harder to train the behavior out of the dog. (my BFF is a dog trainer and we have had many long conversations about training aggression out of dogs) the pattern has been established and you have essentially "allowed" your dog to dominate your child.
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#63 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nudhistbudhist View Post
If everyone was telling me to CIO and formula feed, should I do that too??
People are often misinformed!!!!
No one here is misinformed. Dangerous dogs need to be kept away from people, especially babies. Period.

Mama to Finn (04/05) Arlo (04/07) and Henry (04/10)
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#64 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:08 PM
 
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I didn't mention execution in my post, but rest assured if a human was repeatedly harming her baby, I'd certainly advocate she keep them apart in that case also.
ITA! We have our one dog in the barn, and the other lives in the basement... the basement dog comes up when DS is in his high chair, or when I can sit with ds and help him to control his hands. The dogs both spend 90% of their days outside in their fenced yards, chewing up stumps and bones, and hoof trimmings

We do all this with dogs that we love and have never growled, nipped, or even given ds a look I didn't like. We do this to ensure that the dogs are never in a situation that they have to communicate discomfort in any of the above ways. These dogs both lived in the house with us until I got pregnant, then we slowly made these changes BEFORE ds was born, so that they didn't feel suddenly displaced by the newborn. I'm sure things will change once the kids are older, but until then, this is what we will do to keep our family safe together

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#65 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:13 PM
 
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No one here is misinformed. Dangerous dogs need to be kept away from people, especially babies. Period.
I never said they didn't, I said dogs and children should be kept seperate, and that "dangerous dogs" shouldn't be killed. And that people are often misinformed. People may be telling her to kill the dog. or to CIO. either way, peoples opinions are just that. Opinions. Including mine. But discussion can lead to insight... that's what we are all after, isnt it... just more information to help us make our decisions, not peer pressure.

ETA: Doing something because others are telling you to do it isn't a good enough reason (for me, anyways), even if its the right thing to do, like keeping them separate. I think its good to do your own research and dig a little farther... along with keeping them separate, it would be a good idea to research WHY dogs bite, especially why they bite children, because as the OP mentioned, this dog also doesn't like strangers. Perhaps there is more going on with the dog. The fact that the dog didn't like strangers would have been enough for me to take the dog to a behaviorist while I was pregnant (or even before pregnancy!) to see what changes could be made ahead of time. Some dogs are fear biters. Some dogs have bad eyesight, and bite because they cant see whats going on. There are also more dog bites in hot weather... etc etc.

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#66 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:41 PM
 
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! yet.... we aren't executing oil executives, or fish farmers, or loggers... Strange, isn't it!
Not strange to me as human life trumps the life of a tree or animal, no matter how destructive and awful that human is to the planet.You're right though, we throw away so much, even animal life (I really appreciated reading your first paragraph about this- didn't really link the material with living things before), and this dog doesn't need to be executed yet.

The safest, and most humane option for both child and dog is to foster the dog out.
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#67 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 04:52 PM
 
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Not everyone is advocating putting the dog to sleep. Many of us are saying that the dog either needs to live outside or in the garage, etc OR be rehomed to a family without children. And to not be made to wear sweaters...

I understand the dog is part of the family; I really do. And I'm glad you are keeping them separate, OP. After what you describe, I wouldn't put them back together at all until the child is at least eight, and that is assuming your child truly understands how wide a berth the dog requires.
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#68 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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you seem to be annoyed that people are thinking you are not doing enough, but the truth is, you aren't doing enough. the dog has bit your child more than once, and has also bit you and you are "getting a trainier". the second your dog bit your child the first time, you should have been on the phone calling around for and hiring a trainer. you seems to be dragging your feet on that, so yes, people are going to assume you are not being 100% diligent in the effort to keep your child safe.

you have already let this problem go on too long and that is going to make it harder to train the behavior out of the dog. (my BFF is a dog trainer and we have had many long conversations about training aggression out of dogs) the pattern has been established and you have essentially "allowed" your dog to dominate your child.
Yes, I may have "dragged my feet" in getting a trainer, but it's only because I thought I could handle the situation myself. The trainer who did the obedience classes with us before told us that our dog wouldn't be aggressive towards the baby because she would see her grow up before the baby could grab at her. She didn't show any aggression towards my daughter until recently. My dog only snapped at my daughter for the first time less than a month ago and I've been talking to trainers ever since. It's only recently that I've found one that can come to my house (since my dog doesn't act aggressive outside of the house).

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Originally Posted by nudhistbudhist View Post
ETA: Doing something because others are telling you to do it isn't a good enough reason (for me, anyways), even if its the right thing to do, like keeping them separate. I think its good to do your own research and dig a little farther... along with keeping them separate, it would be a good idea to research WHY dogs bite, especially why they bite children, because as the OP mentioned, this dog also doesn't like strangers. Perhaps there is more going on with the dog. The fact that the dog didn't like strangers would have been enough for me to take the dog to a behaviorist while I was pregnant (or even before pregnancy!) to see what changes could be made ahead of time. Some dogs are fear biters. Some dogs have bad eyesight, and bite because they cant see whats going on. There are also more dog bites in hot weather... etc etc.
I have been researching her aggression for a long time and have read 5+ books on dog aggression. She did go to two obedience classes right when we got her. It was only recently that I found someone who can do one-on-one training at my house (as stated above).

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Not everyone is advocating putting the dog to sleep. Many of us are saying that the dog either needs to live outside or in the garage, etc OR be rehomed to a family without children. And to not be made to wear sweaters...
She was wearing a sweater for her own benefit. We live in Utah and it recently snowed and she has her hair cut very short. She spends a lot of time in the backyard when we are not home and she needs to stay warm.

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#69 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 05:16 PM
 
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OP- I am sorry you have been offended by the responses to your thread. You did post in "Family Safety", everyone here is just trying to help you keep your child safe.

I understand you are hiring a personal trainer. You also said you would consider rehoming the dog if the trainer doesn't help. Here is my question: How exactly are you going to determine if the training hasn't help? Does the dog have to bite your kid again and cause injury for you to realize that the training isn't going to change the dog's personality or change the the fact that the dog is a dog?

No one here is questioning whether or not you love your child. But one bite is one bite too many. How would you feel if you knew the dog had the tendency to bite and the dog injured your child? Would you be able to forgive yourself? I wouldn't.

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#70 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OP- I am sorry you have been offended by the responses to your thread. You did post in "Family Safety", everyone here is just trying to help you keep your child safe.

I understand you are hiring a personal trainer. You also said you would consider rehoming the dog if the trainer doesn't help. Here is my question: How exactly are you going to determine if the training hasn't help? Does the dog have to bite your kid again and cause injury for you to realize that the training isn't going to change the dog's personality or change the the fact that the dog is a dog?

No one here is questioning whether or not you love your child. But one bite is one bite too many. How would you feel if you knew the dog had the tendency to bite and the dog injured your child? Would you be able to forgive yourself? I wouldn't.
I'm not offended, I'm just trying to give everyone more understanding of the situation. I do admit that I've been on the defensive, but with some of the things other posters have posted I can't believe that anyone wouldn't be.

I'll be able to tell if the training has helped if she isn't aggressive towards the baby. Biting is not the first step in aggression. Even if it does help, I plan on keeping them separate.

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#71 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 07:07 PM
 
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It sounds like a lot of this goes beyond looking for agression against the baby.

I've got a friend who recently got a small dog. And being obsessive about everything he does, he and his DP hired a dog behaviorist/trainer to teach them how to raise the dog.

They have a lot of rules now, designed to make sure that dog (and it is a SMALL DOG) never, ever, forgets his place in the pack. The dog is not allowed to sit at the same level as the humans, not fed in certain places, not allowed in certain rooms -- all to make sure that dog constantly knows its place in the pack. A dog that is biting you as well as your baby no longer respects you as pack leader, and getting that role back is vital.

I know, when you're at a place like MDC where everyone is talking consensual living and gentle discipline, having to make sure you are the Alpha Dog in your house may seem like a step back, but that is what a dog needs if it's going to live in close quarters with humans.

Further, I will jsut say my father has worn a mustache my entire life because a less than 20 pound dog attempted to take his face off, nearly half a century ago. And he was an adult at the time. Small dogs are capable of a lot of damage, and babies are soft and easy to damage. Please don't write off the possibility of a heartbreaking incident simply because the dog is small.

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#72 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 08:35 PM
 
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Either the dog or the child need to be removed from the home to keep the child safe. I know which one I would choose and am completely flabbergasted that you are even questioning what you should do. Once the teeth make contact with the skin, broken skin or not, it is over.

Mom to 10yo Autistic Wonder Boy and 6yo Inquisitive Fireball Girl . December birthdays.

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#73 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 08:49 PM
 
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Problem is, this is very much a created problem. The dog has, apparently, been allowed to be repeatedly "harassed" by the child. "Harassed" is applicable because that it what the dog feels. It has tried to escape the situation by walking away, and the child has been allowed to follow and disturb the dog. The dog has reacted in the only way available to it: first by growling and then by nipping. To be reprimanded for using its instinctual warnings. In reality, the CHILD should have been the one reined in and taught how to interact appropriately with the dog.

I have raised two kids around dogs from infancy. There was NEVER a time when they were together unsupervised or when my children were permitted to harass the dog. The children were taught from the get-go that the only permissible touches were "gentle" ones. No poking eyes or noses, no pulling fur or tails or ears... Only gentle stroking touches, telling the hound what a good boy/girl it was.

And in all honesty, long before the children were in the picture (or even a glimmer there), the breeds were chosen specifically for how they tended to be wrt children. A dog is a lifelong commitment. I have two remaining at the moment (just had my best girl put down due to terminal cancer a couple of weeks ago), and it is reasonable to expect that they will be gone by the time my two have little ones of their own. Any dog I get from here on out? Will be a breed that has a tendency to being good with kids.

OP... honestly, while the dog needs behavior modification, so do you and the child. You have created a completely unfair living situation for the dog. Unless you are willing and able to realize that and correct it, the dog would be best off rehomed.
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#74 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 09:20 PM
 
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Dear Lactating Girl,

Our dog that bit our DD at 13 months that I have now posted about twice was a 20lb dog. Like I said the surface area of our daughters face that was covered was her entire right cheek right by her eye. The doctor was convinced that it was a larger dog.

I know that it is hard to believe that they could do that much damage. Like I said our dog had what was called an inhibited bite, more like oops, you are in my space....kind of like a nip that went to far. It left her scarred. It was not an attack. I wish for one moment that you could enter my experience and see the horror I saw in that flash of a moment when it happened. It was truly one of the worst days of my life.

We count ourselves lucky. Until we could get DDog re-homed it was horrible emotionally. Like I said, DDog went EVERYWHERE with us and everyone said what a great dog he was.

This age is just really difficult for dogs. I think that the one thing that no one else has said is to think about from the dog's perspective as well. I don't think that it is good for the dog to be ostracized from the family, shut in a garage, or thrown outside. Yet, the dog is not comfortable in his current situation either. He is telling you something. Try not to think of it so much as your needs and desires as to what the dog is trying to tell you. The dog really may be saying....ugh Peanut needs to go....and if Peanut were a cat or another dog, you would probably comply with his desire. However, since you obviously cannot get rid of Peanut, rehoming to make your dog more comfortable and at peace and Peanut safe.

I wish I had taken and known that some seemingly innocent earlier incidents as warning signs, but I NEVER thought he would ever do anything since HE LOVES people AND KIDS. It was just inconsistent in my head. However, he had never been with a toddler for an extended period of time. He would also come up and sleep next to the baby and had no problems with our DD when she was a baby, but DD was changing and that is also hard for a dog. Just as it is hard for you, you get Peanut "figured out" and she goes and changes as she grows.

Anyway, I hope that my own personal trial with our dog that we had for 6 years, and who is in every family photo, means something. I wish I had been as lucky to have had bites without breaking the skin, but even so, I don't want it to take a serious bite to make you realize the seriousness. I know that on some level that you do because you went ahead with the trainer.

This thread has been very hard for me to read and respond to. Nonetheless, if should happen, be sure to immediately soap and rinse the wound thoroughly. They don't do stitches for many wounds for fear of infection setting in. I think that this may be why DD has scars because it was left open.

You are in my thoughts as you go through this unsettling time of trying to make the best decision for all concerned.
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#75 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 09:33 PM
 
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We just euthanized our dog a week ago because we realized he was a danger to our son. We worked with trainers and bahaviorists for YEARS before my son was born to work through this dog's issues and we rationalized and excused a lot of his behavior. But when he became a threat to my son we had to make a very difficult decision. DS calls for the dog all the time, and I still cry every day. It hurts more than I can say, but I know it was the only choice. Rehoming was not an option for us, but it might be for you. Either way, you can't keep that dog around your baby. If there's even a chance he could hurt your baby, that's just too risky. Far better to find the dog a loving home where he can be safe and happy than have to euthanize a dog who's hurt your child.

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#76 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 09:36 PM
 
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Some dogs are really great with kids, they just have the right temperament. But if your dog doesn't like your LO, well what can you do? I think you might need to rehome your dog. And then wait until your LO is older before getting another dog, or do some research and find a breed that is very loyal and loves kids.

I had a German shepherd mix from the pound. He was the absolutely sweetest dog EVER! We had to move 2000 miles away so we gave him to my mom. My half brother has medical issues (ventilator, etc) and my dog was so sweet with him. He would usually jump on people but around him he would lay down and move really slowly and put his head on the kid's lap and pretty much acted like he knew my brother was special. Now that was a dog I would want to have around my baby.

ETA: Once a dog bites, doesn't that mean it now thinks it is more dominant in the pack? How do you then teach the dog differently? That is why most people get rid of a dog that nips or bites. Your LO needs to be above your dog in the pecking order of the pack.

I really hope the behaviorist helps out your dog and your family. It would be so heartbreaking to get rid of your family pet.

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#77 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 09:39 PM
 
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Babeak, I am *so* sorry. We had a near miss with my child and a "friend's" dog and it haunts me still, two months later, though Thank God my DS was spared from physical harm. I can't even imagine your burden. I am just so very sorry.


And russk... it will get better, promise it will. Our own that we euthanized, I think is now free of the demons that made him unsafe around other living things. I like to think he is somewhere, whole of spirit, no longer tormented by the unnatural urges he felt. Maybe that can bring you some comfort IRT your own?
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#78 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 10:21 PM
 
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I have been researching her aggression for a long time and have read 5+ books on dog aggression. She did go to two obedience classes right when we got her. It was only recently that I found someone who can do one-on-one training at my house (as stated above).



She was wearing a sweater for her own benefit. We live in Utah and it recently snowed and she has her hair cut very short. She spends a lot of time in the backyard when we are not home and she needs to stay warm.
It's great that you read the books on aggression Obviously you saw there was a problem... However, the dog and child were still sharing the same space. I guess this is all kind of a predictable turn of events? From owning a rescued pitbull, I can tell you that obedience classes are not going to help a dog with issues... While it may help a little with socialization, most classes are too basic, dealing with sit stay heel. I do think that it sounds like your dog is by no means a lost cause, however your behavior (body language and house rules) was setting your dog up for failure. Its interesting to see how much our body language tells animals. We had trouble with our dogs completely ignoring my husband (even if he was yelling) because his body language was telling them that he was not higher in the pecking order, and if I even looked at my dog sideways, I would receive a submissive sit. A good trainer will help you. The best trainers seem to be the ones who train the owners, not the dogs!!!! I hope the trainer you have in mind to do one-on-one sessions is qualified. Good luck

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#79 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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I'm not even going to touch the argument of whether or not you should be keeping the dog. That is a totally personal decision you have to make after weighing the risks.

That said, should you opt to keep the dog, I cannot recommend enough the Dog Whisperer/Cesar Milan style of dog....training isn't the right word, but anyway.

What it sounds like is that your dog is under the impression that she is higher in the pack than your daughter - hence the "warning bites." Warning bites like that are very much what a mother dog would do to a puppy.

Hopefully the trainer/behaviorist you are hiring will take the "dog pack" approach that Cesar Milan does, and re-establish a correct human-over-canine hierarchy in your home.

We have a Great Dane and a Boxer - about 200+ pounds of dog, total - and have never had an incident (granted, these are some of the most family-friendly breeds out there). But we began from the very start with establishing our LO's status in our "pack" as higher than the dogs. She is 3 now and can walk the Great Dane on a leash with the dog walking submissively beside her (we still hold the tail end of the leash because at 3 she often forgets what she's doing and drops the leash to dash off and investigate something else. lol). We haven't ever had a trainer with our dogs; I used the Dog Whisperer's first book as a text book when working with our dogs.

Best wishes. I don't envy your position!

High-tech Hippie Mama to Dd1 (9/22/06), Dd2 (2/25/10) and Ds (05/27/2013). I eat Clean, cloth diaper, and spend way too much time online.

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#80 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 11:02 PM
 
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If everyone was telling me to CIO and formula feed, should I do that too??
People are often misinformed!!!!
We are talking about the safety of a young child. I want the momma to look dep inside herself and think about how she will feel if tomorrow the dog bites her baby's face, or worse, throat.

Will it be worth it? Will you honestly think, "Well, I guess I have to get rid of him now."

If anyone or anything hurt my child, it would be the last time they saw each other.
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#81 of 125 Old 11-29-2009, 11:43 PM
 
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It is an awful situation to be in. I went through almost the same thing when my LO was 9 months old and just started walking. My 12 year old dog that I had for 10.5 years started snapping at him. It wasn't aggression in her case, but fear.

You can't train fear out of a dog. I kept them separated but that didn't allow much quality of life for the dog. She would sit at the baby gate and whine or the basement door. She ignored the fenced in back yard and the full basement she could wander around in. She wanted to be with us and was miserable that she was shut away.

But, after she snapped at my baby (face height), that was the last straw. I found her a wonderful new home. I was devastated (anxiety attacks and all) for quite a while but having a whole healthy child was way more important. Even a small snap from a small dog could take out a child's eye, take off a finger, or some other permanent disfigurement and I couldn't live with that.
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#82 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 12:21 AM
 
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Dear OP,
I think you're doing the right thing in keeping the dog and baby completely separated and hiring an in home trainer. Please know I think re-homing the dog is also a good option in this situation. It is really good to know you have been trying to get an in-home trainer since things started up and you have been reading about aggression.

Please also remember that opinions from the internet, and indeed, from a some trainers, are just opinions. I hope the books you have read will help you evaluate the trainer you have hired. I truly hope the in home trainer is also a certified behaviorist. It certainly sounds like your problems are behavior rather than training related.


I am not a behaviorist, or a trainer. I am just a very involved dog owner who did a lot of study before bringing my puppy home. My understanding is that current, up to date and scientifically supported behaviorist/training does not support the pack order/alpha theory that is so popular today. This is not a new concept, but it's easier to go with the older coercive and negative training than utilize the more finessed positive behavior modification techniques. This is not to say humans do not need to be a leader! rather that it is more complicated than making sure the dog eats last, using a specific tone of voice, or keeping the dog off the furniture. Alpha rolls in particular have been discredited and can do a lot more harm than good esp. with a fearful dog. There indeed is a degree of mutualism in good dog-human relationships. I am not criticizing any previous posters, as I cannot know from a few posts what actually goes on in their homes. I am just trying to bring to the forefront of your mind that you must evaluate the professional you have hired, and indeed be educated yourself on the subject if you hope to resolve these issues.

I also totally agree with mtiger! your child has been harassing your dog and that needs to stop! it should not be an issue if you keep them separated as you've said you now are. However, IMO children need as much if more more training about pets than the pets do about kids. This will serve your child well when dealing with other dogs and cats as well.

Good luck!
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#83 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 12:37 AM
 
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the OP's child is 8 MONTHS old an INFANT

Jeana Christian momma to 4 sons Logan 18, Connor 15, Nathan 6, and bonus baby Jack 1
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#84 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 12:45 AM
 
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the OP's child is 8 MONTHS old an INFANT


The BABY is not the problem. The BABY cannot decide if she should be exposed to the dog and is far to young to understand the concept of interacting appropriately with animals.

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#85 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 01:17 AM
 
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8 mo seems to be a common age for dogs to freak out about babies. I rehomed a dog at that age (about 20#, a Lhasa apso) because he was growling at dd just for crawling in his direction. The baby had never been near the dog, because she'd previously been immobile and he chose to stay away from her (good enough). But as soon as she started crawling, he freaked right out. He never got close enough to nip because the growls and body language sent the message loud and clear; we never let her near him. We found a great, child-free home for him where he is loved to this day (8 years later).

OP, I wish you luck. I tell my story to illustrate that rehoming can be win-win, and is often the easiest and best solution for the dog and child (although it is difficult for the adult dog owner who had the dog first )
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#86 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 01:32 AM
 
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In this case I would rehome the dog if you can. This is not a breed that deals well with kids, it has bitten BOTH an infant and an adult, has unpredicatable behavior with strangers and lastly locking a dog behind gates is not a garentee that the two will not come in contact, especially since your DD is not walking yet - it's amazing where toddlers can go. If this had been our situation our dog would have been long gone.

Our dog did bite one of my kids - my 3 year old, They where playing fetch outside with a ball, 6 people within arms reach watching. My DD threw the ball in the air above her head and the dog lept up to get it. He snaped at the ball as it was comming down - caught the ball - and the side of DD'd face. 6 stiches and some small scars later my DD is afraid of the dog, and that will take a longer time to heal then the wounds. There was no aggresion at all, it wasn't the dogs fault it was the adults around my DD for not watching that my DD was throwing the ball away from herself.
He is a very highly trained farm/hunting dog, generally very good natured - but I would NEVER EVER allow my kids to be locked in the same room as him, even with adults present. Our dog is and outdoors dog - he never comes in the house, and my kids have been sternly reprimanded for calling him/ luring him into the house. To have him in the house is trapping him all animals need an area to escape a threat, the threat that your dog is facing from your DD may not be obviose. The crys of a child can be painfull on a dogs ear, as can squeeling. I can't allow our middle DD anywhere near the barn when I am working with the cattle or pigs - the pitch of her voice, and the constant talking bother the animals and make them dangerous to work with.
If your dog is bitting then I would look into the reason behind the biteing, training is not going to help if the dog has a problem with something you are doing (or your DD) and you may not see. The dog is trying to tell you something.
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#87 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 01:58 AM
 
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We are talking about the safety of a young child. I want the momma to look dep inside herself and think about how she will feel if tomorrow the dog bites her baby's face, or worse, throat.

Will it be worth it? Will you honestly think, "Well, I guess I have to get rid of him now."

If anyone or anything hurt my child, it would be the last time they saw each other.
That could be said about anything. Anything bad could happen. Everytime you get in a car, you are putting your child at risk. If you sat and thought about how horrible it would be if someone crossed the centerline and crashed into you when you had you're child with you, you would probably never get in the car again. And even if someone almost hits you, (which, everytime we're in the city, seems to be the case) most people would still drive. You do get in the car, knowing full well everytime that something could happen. In order to do that, you take every measure possible to keep your child safe while in the car. Driving is a risk. So is owning an animal that has teeth. People make better decisions when they are armed with knowledge and not making decisions out of fear. The OP already said she is keeping the dog and child separated now. Ideally, they would have been separated as soon as the child was born. But they weren't, which is why we're talking about it.

I think its terrible that we still see ourselves as somehow separate and more valuable that other unique and beautiful life forms such as dogs. It is that attitude that has gotten us to where we are today Living in a time where the natural world is only here to provide human gratification. This dog is a microscopic example of today's culture of getting rid of something as soon as it breaks, even though we are usually the ones who broke it. What we do in our daily lives influences the entire planet. Hopefully we can ALL strive to have the same compassion towards our animal kin that we have towards our own children's lives.

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#88 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 02:08 AM
 
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That could be said about anything. Anything bad could happen. Everytime you get in a car, you are putting your child at risk. If you sat and thought about how horrible it would be if someone crossed the centerline and crashed into you when you had you're child with you, you would probably never get in the car again. And even if someone almost hits you, (which, everytime we're in the city, seems to be the case) most people would still drive. You do get in the car, knowing full well everytime that something could happen. In order to do that, you take every measure possible to keep your child safe while in the car. Driving is a risk. So is owning an animal that has teeth. People make better decisions when they are armed with knowledge and not making decisions out of fear. The OP already said she is keeping the dog and child separated now. Ideally, they would have been separated as soon as the child was born. But they weren't, which is why we're talking about it.

I think its terrible that we still see ourselves as somehow separate and more valuable that other unique and beautiful life forms such as dogs. It is that attitude that has gotten us to where we are today Living in a time where the natural world is only here to provide human gratification. This dog is a microscopic example of today's culture of getting rid of something as soon as it breaks, even though we are usually the ones who broke it. What we do in our daily lives influences the entire planet. Hopefully we can ALL strive to have the same compassion towards our animal kin that we have towards our own children's lives.

Mmm. I think a mechanical device, with no emotions, no aggression, cannot be compared to a living thing.

Human life > animal. Infant > dog. So yes, I garden organically, I try to raise my own meat or DH hunts it. I nurse, I use nontoxic natural cleaners.

Still not gonna tolerate anything, let slone the family pet, harming my child.
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#89 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 06:01 AM
 
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I think its terrible that we still see ourselves as somehow separate and more valuable that other unique and beautiful life forms such as dogs. It is that attitude that has gotten us to where we are today Living in a time where the natural world is only here to provide human gratification. This dog is a microscopic example of today's culture of getting rid of something as soon as it breaks, even though we are usually the ones who broke it. What we do in our daily lives influences the entire planet. Hopefully we can ALL strive to have the same compassion towards our animal kin that we have towards our own children's lives.
Finding a new loving childless home for a dog is not the same as throwing it away or euthanising. I think its the most compassionate thing she could do for both the dog and child personally.
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#90 of 125 Old 11-30-2009, 08:25 AM
 
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I think its terrible that we still see ourselves as somehow separate and more valuable that other unique and beautiful life forms such as dogs.
Here's how I look at pet ownership: we're not "more valuable." But we've evolved some specialized abilities such as reason, spoken language, and an ethical system. Because of those we have a RESPONSIBILITY to take care of animals, including making some hard decisions.

Does it seem like the dog is having a nice life, being so afraid and defensive/aggressive that it lashes out at a baby? The best thing for the dog AND the baby would be for the dog to live elsewhere.
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