How bad is it to leave coats on in car seats? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:03 PM
 
lifeguard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Coyote Rock Farm
Posts: 6,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_aurora View Post
This from the Child Passenger Safety Encyclopedia. You can see that we are not making this up and that those techs who do not teach about bulky clothing are actually not following the standardized curriculum.



Here is a great blog from a CPST with pictures, showing not only the slack in a harness after a coat is removed but also safe ways of keeping warm!
Thank you.

I actually do NOT use a puffy coat in the car but I am always interested in more accurate information so I can share it with others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Limabean1975 View Post
Hmm. In conjunction with the other information in this thread - about the incredible forces in an accident and how much they can compress - it still does not make sense to me. A child's weight certainly could not compress it the amount that a reasonably strong adult could tighten the straps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maedze View Post
This is categorically incorrect and says to me that you do not understand the physics involved.

Due to the deceleration that occurs in a severe crash, the child's weight is multiplied essentially by the speed of the car. The force can easily approach thousands of pounds of pure momentum. This is far more than an adult can achieve by hand tightening.
I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I just wish this information could be shared in such a way as to not come across as judgemental - it just gets people's defenses up right away & then nothing is accomplished. If this is really so important than the information should be shared as much as possible in a friendly, let's make the children safer manner. And honestly, telling someone they need to take a course to get the information is not very helpful.

Surviving sleep deprivation one day at a time with dd (Oct '11) & ds (Oct '08).

lifeguard is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:15 PM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 42,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://www.remsa-cf.com/ComAdvisor2005/CA112905a.html

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/...t.html?ref=rss

http://www.unitedwayuc.org/welcomeba...ary%202008.pdf

http://www.canadianparents.com/artic...ar-seat-safety

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#63 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:23 PM
 
elus0814's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
Maedze,

I think you're underestimating the issue of Cold in Canada. I've lived in Chicago, which I'm going to guess is similar to most of Massachussetts. Yes, it was cold, but I'd still run from class to class without a coat, or go outside for longer periods without gloves or a hat but just a sweatshirt hood and my hands in my pocket.

I also lived in Canada and it was different. Running outside to pick up the newspaper was cold enough to make you cry. Taking off your gloves to tie a shoelace was painful. When I left the house in the morning to go to the bus stop it was routinely 40 degrees below zero. If I was still zipping my coat when I walked out the door, the cold would get inside and I'd be miserable for hours. If you want to think about the difference between that 40 degrees and the 10 below which you describe as "bitter" think of the difference between 70 degrees (too cool to swim) and 100.

In that kind of climate, you can cause physical pain to your child if they aren't in a coat long enough to strap the straps. Frostbite is a real risk if your child kicks off a blanket while the car is still warming up.

I also have to say that on this board it often appears as if there's too categories a behavior can fall in to -- safe, and not safe. The reality is different. Statistics tell us that every time you put your child into the car you're taking a risk (just as you would be if you walked somewhere, or stayed home) and that there are things you can do to mitigate these risks. Some of these things are easy to do and it makes sense to be judgemental of those people who don't do them. But there's no bright line between "safe" and "unsafe", and every parent needs to decide where the line is for them as an individual. A Canadian parent who decides that buying a coat with Thinsulate instead of down, and compressing it as tightly as they can, is where the line is for them isn't making a horrible choice. They're making a different choice than you are.
VERY well put. It is very unrealistic for parents to try and take their baby out of their coat and put them into a freezing cold car seat. It is possible to find a less puffy coat and make sure the straps are sufficiently tight but coat removal is not. Think how you would feel if you had your coat ripped off in sub-zero weather and were then strapped into an ice cold seat. I can't believe parents aren't concerned about hypothermia, which can occur very quickly in children. The risk of hypothermia is much greater than the chance of an accident. It would be like purposely pushing your child down so they scrape up their knee in order to avoid a one in a million chance they would fall themselves and break their leg.
elus0814 is offline  
#64 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:26 PM
 
Maedze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeguard View Post
Thank you.

I actually do NOT use a puffy coat in the car but I am always interested in more accurate information so I can share it with others.





I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I just wish this information could be shared in such a way as to not come across as judgemental - it just gets people's defenses up right away & then nothing is accomplished. If this is really so important than the information should be shared as much as possible in a friendly, let's make the children safer manner. And honestly, telling someone they need to take a course to get the information is not very helpful.

I gave you the information I had multiple times. You clearly did not believe me and implied strongly that I was making it up. I did not have an on line reference to cite, merely written works HERE on my desk. I cited the course as the most immediate way of getting the information.

If you repeatedly imply someone is not being truthful, that person, no matter how well-meaning, is going to get short eventually.

CPST
Maedze is offline  
#65 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:26 PM
 
Maedze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elus0814 View Post
VERY well put. It is very unrealistic for parents to try and take their baby out of their coat and put them into a freezing cold car seat. It is possible to find a less puffy coat and make sure the straps are sufficiently tight but coat removal is not. Think how you would feel if you had your coat ripped off in sub-zero weather and were then strapped into an ice cold seat. I can't believe parents aren't concerned about hypothermia, which can occur very quickly in children. The risk of hypothermia is much greater than the chance of an accident. It would be like purposely pushing your child down so they scrape up their knee in order to avoid a one in a million chance they would fall themselves and break their leg.
Multiple parents have told you how they deal with this in a safe and effective manner. You do not need to wear a coat in the car to keep your child warm, and it is still dangerous.

CPST
Maedze is offline  
#66 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:30 PM
 
Maedze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeguard View Post

I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I
Ok, I think I understand the question. Are you questioning how compression comes into play in a forward facing crash when the added bulk is between the child and the shell rather than the child and the harness?

CPST
Maedze is offline  
#67 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:31 PM
 
Limabean1975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post
I think limabean's point was how is it safe to have the jacket behind the child? Because only 30lbs of compression would be exerted on the jacket (vs. 50+ lbs of compression if an adult tightened the strap) -- point being that if it's not safe for the jacket to be in between the harness & the child, it doesn't make sense that it IS safe to have it in between the child & the back of the car set.
Yes exactly. Perhaps I should have included my original post in the quote since some people may only be skimming the thread.

DS 12/22/05 and DD 5/24/09
Limabean1975 is offline  
#68 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:39 PM
 
Limabean1975's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maedze View Post
Ok, I think I understand the question. Are you questioning how compression comes into play in a forward facing crash when the added bulk is between the child and the shell rather than the child and the harness?
Any direction of crash, really.

DS 12/22/05 and DD 5/24/09
Limabean1975 is offline  
#69 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:52 PM
 
Drummer's Wife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 11,487
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For those who don't have remote starters (they are actually fairly cheap, btw) or live somewhere where it's illegal to have the car running w/o anyone in it - can't you strap or set the kids into their carseats, in their full winter gear, and then wait until the car warms up a bit, unbuckle them and remove coats (putting on backwards if it's still too chilly), and re-buckle and tighten the harness? Typing it all out it sounds like a process, but when we lived in CO and had four kids in carseats, we often did this. It might have added 5 min or so depending on how long the car had been sitting, but with multiple kids we needed extra time to get places and/or ran a bit late anyhow.

ribboncesarean.gif cesareans happen.
Drummer's Wife is offline  
#70 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 10:59 PM
 
vbactivist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
For those who don't have remote starters (they are actually fairly cheap, btw) or live somewhere where it's illegal to have the car running w/o anyone in it - can't you strap or set the kids into their carseats, in their full winter gear, and then wait until the car warms up a bit, unbuckle them and remove coats (putting on backwards if it's still too chilly), and re-buckle and tighten the harness? Typing it all out it sounds like a process, but when we lived in CO and had four kids in carseats, we often did this. It might have added 5 min or so depending on how long the car had been sitting, but with multiple kids we needed extra time to get places and/or ran a bit late anyhow.

Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-
vbactivist is offline  
#71 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:00 PM
 
Maedze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limabean1975 View Post
Any direction of crash, really.
Ok.

I'm venturing out of verifiable, documented fact here and offering my opinion based on what I do know about crash testing.

Facts:

1. Head excursion is measured from a neutral point (back of the child restraint) to however far the head travels

2. The further forward the child is at the time of impact (due to loose straps or added padding), the further the head travels before snapping back

3. In studies, the the further the head excursion, the greater the chance of serious head or neck injuries.

So, I would posit that simply adding padding to the back of the seat will increase the risk of head or neck injuries. However, with thin or non-compressible coats, using the coat trick of opening the front and doing up the harness inside, it's actually measurably possible to tighten the harness just as much as you would without the coat, which is why the coat trick works so well.

Other observable facts:

Even when parents (general parents) don't put anything in the seat, they tend not to tighten the harness properly. I don't think I've ever (maybe once or twice?) have a parent come into my inspection station with the harness correctly tightened. Yet as a general rule they think they've done it correctly.

Every added piece of thickness you put in there, whether it's from a thick coat, or a bunting or a Bundle Me, increases the risk of the harness being loose enough to actually cause serious, serious harm.

CPST
Maedze is offline  
#72 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:04 PM
 
Maedze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-

It gets cold here, too. I have three kids, I don't have a remote starter or a garage. It's currently 5 degrees outside.

Just because something is an added inconvenience does not make doing the opposite a safe or non-risky decision.


I will be bowing out of this thread now because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. If anyone has a future legitimate question I will be happy to field them via PM.

I do not wish to argue with anyone so I will not respond to argumentative PMs.

Have a pleasant evening

CPST
Maedze is offline  
#73 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:08 PM
 
an_aurora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Palmer, AK
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: the "coat trick": I'm not personally comfortable with it, so I've never done it. But I think the general idea is that instead of the bulk of a jacket all around the child, you only have the bulk of the jacket behind the child. The child probably wouldn't be ejected, it would just allow a little extra movement/head excursion. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, but some are comfortable with it

CPST & mom

an_aurora is offline  
#74 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:11 PM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 42,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_aurora View Post
RE: the "coat trick": I'm not personally comfortable with it, so I've never done it. But I think the general idea is that instead of the bulk of a jacket all around the child, you only have the bulk of the jacket behind the child. The child probably wouldn't be ejected, it would just allow a little extra movement/head excursion. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, but some are comfortable with it
ET: Looking at the information it looks like it isn't safe to have compressible materials behind the child either.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#75 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:18 PM
 
vbactivist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maedze View Post
It gets cold here, too. I have three kids, I don't have a remote starter or a garage. It's currently 5 degrees outside.

Just because something is an added inconvenience does not make doing the opposite a safe or non-risky decision.

I will be bowing out of this thread now because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. If anyone has a future legitimate question I will be happy to field them via PM.

I do not wish to argue with anyone so I will not respond to argumentative PMs.

Have a pleasant evening
And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.
vbactivist is offline  
#76 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:22 PM
 
an_aurora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Palmer, AK
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.
Right, but child passenger safety is all about minimizing risk while in the car

CPST & mom

an_aurora is offline  
#77 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Drummer's Wife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 11,487
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-
Fair enough. At one point we had a tiny car (mazda protege) with 3 car seats in the back and I remember not even strapping them in until the car warmed up -- we would sit there and listen to music, or they would cry/fight/complain and there certainly wasn't room for me to climb back there - but I would have to freeze my a$$ off for a couple minutes to get back out of the car, reach in from each door, remove 3 coats, and buckle. Of course it was a million times easier when DH was with us, and then even better once he installed a remote start. I do recall being cold, uncomfortable, and inconvenienced - and I can only imagine if we are talking some of these temps others have mentioned Denver got cold, but not 40 below.

The good news is that it's not forever, right? Kids grow and eventually don't need harnessed seats and/or can put on and remove their outerwear on their own. Maybe I'd be complaining more about the hassle if it were my current reality, but as it is now, we have a heated garage, a big SUV to move around in, and live in a much warmer climate. (thankgoodness, b/c I'm a big wuss.)

I was just making a suggestion, is all, b/c what we used to do came to mind. clearly it depends on weather, how much of a hurry one is in, kids temperament, etc.

I will say, though, that the blog pictures an aurora linked were helpful to me to see the possible difference in harness slack.

ribboncesarean.gif cesareans happen.
Drummer's Wife is offline  
#78 of 157 Old 12-21-2009, 11:40 PM
 
chickabiddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.
Well, yes, it does make it unsafe and risky. Whether that decrease in safety/increase in risk is "worth it" is an individual decision -- but certain things, like puffy coats in carseats or forward-facing too early, ARE risky. A person's own priorities may justify the risk in their assessment, but it doesn't eliminate it.

ETA that to me, this is the crux of the argument. Parents make their own choices. I (try to) respect that. I won't argue (too much) when a parent makes a choice I wouldn't. I will argue when that parent argues that the choice is safe.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
chickabiddy is offline  
#79 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 01:33 AM
 
Mommybree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-
It is precisely because traveling in a car is so dangerous that being safely secured in a carseat facing the appropriate direction for a child's age without a big, puffy coat is so vitally important.

If traveling in cars weren't dangerous, then carseat safety wouldn't matter.
Mommybree is offline  
#80 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 09:01 AM
 
Twinklefae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 4,992
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm a tech and I'm in Canada. If you aren't sure if your DC's coats will cause issue in an accident, try this. Put them in the car seat with the coat on. Take them out. Take the coat off. (You can do this in the living room if it's too cold outside.) Put them back in the car seat and look at the harness. If it isn't loose at all, they can keep wearing the coat.

Personally, I shop for a "car coat" every winter. When he was tiny it was a fleece suit. Last year it was a layer of fleece with a wind-breaking layer. This year it is just a thin coat. Add hats and mitts (v. important when fending off the cold!) and you are ready to go.

For my daycare kids, I do the coat trick, where I undo their (enormous puffy) coats and zip up over the top of the harness. (Or velcro... coats with velcro make this much easier!) It takes me 15 min to get three kids in the car.

ETA: There wouldn't be any stats on whether or not a coat makes a difference, because something like 80% of car seats are used incorrectly, no matter the weather.

Sarahknit.gifmarried to Kylehopmad.gif Mama to Orion  bouncy.gif08/07 and introducing Alice! babygirl.gif 02/11
DCP to 1 busy munchkin! and a CRST too!
 
Twinklefae is offline  
#81 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 11:38 AM
 
Yooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What about bibs and booster/seatbelt use? Both dd and I wear bibs often in the winter when we are running errands. Having that extra layer on the legs makes it possible for us to wear lighter, less-compressible coats on top. Plus we are often "wading" in deep snow to our car and on the seldom-cleared sidewalks. It sounds weird but lots of people here wear bibs as a regular item of clothing. I am another one from a very cold climate and really taking a coat off for any amount of time can be dangerous. We also travel on a lot of rural roads where it would be very easy to go off the road and wait hours or even days to get help.....possibly trapped in your seat. Anyway, the bibs we wear are not padded on the "bib" area, just the legs and waist. But I am thinking the padding in the waist/lap area might be an issue?

FTR, we do try very hard to avoid puffy coats in seatbelts. Dd has a 5-point harness in one car and we simply do not use that car unless dd can fit into the preset straps with whatever she is wearing. However, there have been a few times where we have HAD to go somewhere (in the boostered car) and going with a fleece coat would just be a really dumb risk. We do the "coat trick" or put it on backwards over the belt but honestly, that makes me more nervous than going over the coat because I cannot SEE the seatbelt under dd's coat and cannot be constantly monitoring whether it is correctly tightened or positions.
Yooper is offline  
#82 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 01:20 PM
 
lasciate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,085
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd like to see some links about children being ejected from carseats. Not infants - just children.
lasciate is offline  
#83 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Momily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinklefae View Post
I'm a tech and I'm in Canada. If you aren't sure if your DC's coats will cause issue in an accident, try this. Put them in the car seat with the coat on. Take them out. Take the coat off. (You can do this in the living room if it's too cold outside.) Put them back in the car seat and look at the harness. If it isn't loose at all, they can keep wearing the coat.

Personally, I shop for a "car coat" every winter. When he was tiny it was a fleece suit. Last year it was a layer of fleece with a wind-breaking layer. This year it is just a thin coat. Add hats and mitts (v. important when fending off the cold!) and you are ready to go.

For my daycare kids, I do the coat trick, where I undo their (enormous puffy) coats and zip up over the top of the harness. (Or velcro... coats with velcro make this much easier!) It takes me 15 min to get three kids in the car.

ETA: There wouldn't be any stats on whether or not a coat makes a difference, because something like 80% of car seats are used incorrectly, no matter the weather.
I live in a much warmer climate. My child never rode in a coat, but in the winter was frequently in the car in with say an undershirt, turtleneck and sweatshirt. When he was little I had to uninstall the carseat to tighten or loosen the harness, and every spring I'd have to tighten it because he was wearing less clothing. So his outfit would have failed that test -- does that make it unsafe?
Momily is offline  
#84 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 03:20 PM
 
Momily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OK, I can't

But I feel like often at MDC people make the blanket statement that something is unsafe, and don't back it up, and that's what's happening here. It's like superstition -- there's a certain list of "rules" I must follow and if I follow them perfectly my child will never come to harm. Therefore parents whose children do come to harm must be breaking some rule and should be harshly judged. As a parent I'm constantly making decisions about whether X or Y is the best choice for us, it's rarely as simple as just following a single rule.

To give you an example, school buses are definitely safer than cars, even for kids in carseats, but I don't throw a fit when I hear that my neighbor decides to drive to school to pick up her kid to be at Brownies on time.

Driving (in the short term, leaving the long term risks of inactivity) with your kid in the car is dramatically safer than walking, but I don't judge a parent who walks their kid to school.

Everyone's situation is different. Is there an increased risk of ejection and head excursion if a child's wearing a puffy coat? Yes, I will admit that. But if you're in a 40 below climate, and you're in an accident bad enough that that makes a difference you're almost certainly with shattered window, and the risk of a child freezing to death waiting for first responders is real too.

Where I live, when I pick up and drop off my kid at school we're parked on the side of a busy street. Waiting 10 minutes for my car to warm up, while he's sitting unbuckled in the seat isn't any different from driving on the same street with him completely unbuckled. Plus, carjacking is a real issue where I live, so having the car running while I'm at the back door (particularly the back passenger side door) buckling someone in is out of the question.

The correct thing to do would be to provide real statistics, or even anecdotes that involve older kids (because putting baby in a bunting in the carseat, wrapping a blanket or 2 around him and carrying him out to the car, is a lot easier than dealing with a 4 year old) would be great.

If I were a parent dealing with this (I'm not, I have a 10 year old), I'd want some real information so that I can evaluate the situation and make the decision that's right for me. That decision might be complicated. If he's going to preschool where they go straight from carpool to the playground, I do the coat trick, and let him wear snowpants . . . If it's above negative 10 we do the fleece coat blanket thing, if we're traveling on rural roads where we might not be found for hours after an accident we buckle over the winter coat . . .
Momily is offline  
#85 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 03:34 PM
 
Missinnyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My son wears a very puffy parka in the winter, in his 5 pt harness. I have never had to tighten or loosen the straps in order to get him in or out. It's plenty tight either way.

The reason no one can post statistics is that this is impossible to study. I think it's pretty probable that these kids who are ejected from their CS in accidents weren't tightly strapped in, coat or not. The coat is not necessarily the deciding factor here.

I find this whole argument silly. As the PP said, the safest thing to do is never to drive anywhere, as driving is much less safe than never driving. So I think anyone who drives their kid anywhere doesn't care about safety. You should all walk everywhere!!

Kidding. Do the best you can.

Mom to 5 wonderful kids (9, 6, 4, 2 and 0), 1 adopted through foster care.

Missinnyc is offline  
#86 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 06:25 PM
 
Therese's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NEPA
Posts: 1,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I read this thread through this AMs posts. I have been wondering about the bulky coat thing. Today when I went out with my 5yo I did the coat trick and it really only added a minute total (30 sec putting her in and 30 sec taking her out). I am a super duper impatient person and my nb is almost always screaming in the car which makes me even more impatient, so the fact that I didn't find this annoying says a lot. I am not saying it will work for everyone, since there are so many situations out there, but I would urge people to just give it a try

Beth wife to Tom and mommy to Therese 11/4/04 Anna Mary 6/15/07 and Veronica 10/20/09
Therese's Mommy is offline  
#87 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 06:41 PM
 
an_aurora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Palmer, AK
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Right, how can they study this? It's impossible to isolate the variables. When a child is ejected, it's attributed to loose straps. Coats contribute to loose straps.

I'll try to find some pertinent links.

CPST & mom

an_aurora is offline  
#88 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 06:58 PM
 
momtoS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,755
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momily View Post
OK, I can't

But I feel like often at MDC people make the blanket statement that something is unsafe, and don't back it up, and that's what's happening here. It's like superstition -- there's a certain list of "rules" I must follow and if I follow them perfectly my child will never come to harm. Therefore parents whose children do come to harm must be breaking some rule and should be harshly judged. As a parent I'm constantly making decisions about whether X or Y is the best choice for us, it's rarely as simple as just following a single rule.

To give you an example, school buses are definitely safer than cars, even for kids in carseats, but I don't throw a fit when I hear that my neighbor decides to drive to school to pick up her kid to be at Brownies on time.

Driving (in the short term, leaving the long term risks of inactivity) with your kid in the car is dramatically safer than walking, but I don't judge a parent who walks their kid to school.

Everyone's situation is different. Is there an increased risk of ejection and head excursion if a child's wearing a puffy coat? Yes, I will admit that. But if you're in a 40 below climate, and you're in an accident bad enough that that makes a difference you're almost certainly with shattered window, and the risk of a child freezing to death waiting for first responders is real too.

Where I live, when I pick up and drop off my kid at school we're parked on the side of a busy street. Waiting 10 minutes for my car to warm up, while he's sitting unbuckled in the seat isn't any different from driving on the same street with him completely unbuckled. Plus, carjacking is a real issue where I live, so having the car running while I'm at the back door (particularly the back passenger side door) buckling someone in is out of the question.

The correct thing to do would be to provide real statistics, or even anecdotes that involve older kids (because putting baby in a bunting in the carseat, wrapping a blanket or 2 around him and carrying him out to the car, is a lot easier than dealing with a 4 year old) would be great.

If I were a parent dealing with this (I'm not, I have a 10 year old), I'd want some real information so that I can evaluate the situation and make the decision that's right for me. That decision might be complicated. If he's going to preschool where they go straight from carpool to the playground, I do the coat trick, and let him wear snowpants . . . If it's above negative 10 we do the fleece coat blanket thing, if we're traveling on rural roads where we might not be found for hours after an accident we buckle over the winter coat . . .

I do agree with some of your points.


What if while waiting for your car to warm up and your children are not restrained for 10-15minutes....someone rearends you...or loses control on the ice and hits your car????


But at least you were waiting for a warm car to take their jackets off? NOPE it would be too late.

What if while buckling in one child...the other child climbed over the seat and put the car in drive? There is nothing you could do to stop it...as you are on the other side of the car.

Prehaps while buckling in one child...a carjacker jumps in your car and drives away with your children in it.

These are all REAL RISKS TOO>
momtoS is offline  
#89 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 06:59 PM
 
an_aurora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Palmer, AK
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
From FARS:

In 2008, 156 children ages 2,3,4 and 5 were killed from being ejected from the vehicle. In the same year, 66 infants 0-1 were killed in the same manner.

On average, 63% of children under 5 killed in any type of crash (ejected or not) were restrained.

Keep in mind that with ejected children, it is common for them to be listed as "unrestrained" since crash investigators cannot always determine whether the restraint was in use at the time of the crash.

More coming...

CPST & mom

an_aurora is offline  
#90 of 157 Old 12-22-2009, 07:11 PM
 
Momily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_aurora View Post
From FARS:

In 2008, 156 children ages 2,3,4 and 5 were killed from being ejected from the vehicle. In the same year, 66 infants 0-1 were killed in the same manner.

On average, 63% of children under 5 killed in any type of crash (ejected or not) were restrained.

Keep in mind that with ejected children, it is common for them to be listed as "unrestrained" since crash investigators cannot always determine whether the restraint was in use at the time of the crash.

More coming...
Were these events disproportionately represented in the winter or in colder climates? Controlling, of course for difference in accident rates due to snow and ice.

I'm not saying the statistics don't exist, just that if someone wanted to investigate this phenomena through the use of statistics they could.
Momily is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off