Safety while breastfeeding and riding in the car? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by an_aurora View Post
The only benefit of holding your baby is that they stop screaming. The RISK is your baby going through the windshield.

Read my above post about my DH's cousin. My aunt didn't think it was a risk either, and she lost her baby to a drunk driver.

But it is a real benefit vs a perceived risk. Everyone has to weigh it for themselves though. And my baby screaminig and feeling like noone is responding to her is a very real risk and truly damaging. We don't CIO in any other circumstance either.
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#62 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 06:49 PM
 
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absolutley! But for me, I take into accoutn my baby's emotional as well as physical well-being.
wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.
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#63 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 06:53 PM
 
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wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.
I was not implying anything about you

I was only stating what factors we take into consideration. Use a carseat under any circumstance - if that's what you feel is best. I am just saying that there are times when I don't, based on the situation.
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#64 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 07:28 PM
 
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But it is a real benefit vs a perceived risk.
No, it's a perceived benefit vs. a real risk.

Neurobiologists, psychologists, etc. can't agree on what the actual lasting harm is to crying for infants. There are definite neurological changes, and when you compare cultures with different practices, those where they don't use cry-it-out methods to send kids to sleep have lower levels of stress and sleep disorders as adults. We're not talking about CIO as a punishment or a sleep-training method, however; in those cases, there are clearly safe alternatives that don't involve crying.

OTOH, riding improperly restrained in a car is ALWAYS a risk. That is undisputable. No matter how safe a driver *you* are, you cannot guarantee that some idiot won't come careening out of nowhere and slam into you. I've been rear-ended at a dead stop by a drunk driver in a stolen vehicle before. I could not in any way have prevented the accident, except by NOT BEING THERE.

What you really meant to say is "real harm vs. the risk of harm." Again, the harm of allowing the child to cry in the car is debatable (but let's not debate it right now, please; I think everyone here agrees that it should be avoided if possible). You're basically saying "It's worth the gamble of a ticket, a CPS investigation, or my baby dying in an accident to stop them crying without stopping the car." And, while it might be worth all that *to you*, that does not make it a SAFER practice. It's a decision you make, based on how you weigh the issues. Me, I know my child will never die of crying in the car, while they certainly could die pretty easily if I took them out of their carseat in a moving vehicle. Keeping them safe is my first priority.

Finally, there is a big difference between a child crying alone in a room, and a child crying while someone tries to physically or verbally comfort them. If you can pull the child out of the carseat to nurse them (or even lean over and nurse them), you can also stroke their head, hold their hand, or any number of other, safer comfort measures, which would largely mitigate the neurological effects of extended crying.
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#65 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 07:50 PM
 
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Well said, Monica.

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knit.gifand sewmachine.gif my way through my stash.

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#66 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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My DD would scream for 3 hours in the carseat if I didn't nurse her. I'd usually nurse the entire trip, but after 30 minutes or so, she'd often sleep. Letting her cry that long was not an option. Sometimes you do what you have to do.
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#67 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 10:54 PM
 
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wow! the implication that i do not? i take into account my childrens physical and emotional well being. as i stated earlier, i have nursed in a moving vehicle on occasion. however, that does not mean its safe...just b/c i did it.

so yes...considering the weather, the ability to pull over, the area where we would have had to pull over w/ such weather conditions, i did feel SAFER nursing in the car. but i put my bum in the back seat and leaned over...at least that way, if there had been an accident (woudl ahve been at really really low speed due to the conditions) i would have more than likely been pushed into the front seat or something....at least baby would be restrained.

i didnt even recognize at first that this was about nursing a baby OUTSIDE a car seat in a moving car so i wasnt even addressing that issue. A screaming baby is no fun but there are less dangerous solutions than taking a baby out of a car seat in a moving vehicle. i just cant imagine a scenario where that is the safest option one has.

im about as crunchy as they come but im quite shocked by the recommendation that this would ever be acceptable.
I was not implying anything about you

I was only stating what factors we take into consideration. Use a carseat under any circumstance - if that's what you feel is best. I am just saying that there are times when I don't, based on the situation.
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#68 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 10:57 PM
 
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but this is the FAMILY SAFETY forum...so logic really has to dictate here what is SAFE and what is NOT....transporting a child in a car outside of a car seat is NOT safe.
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#69 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:01 PM
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all of these calculation matter only if you are in a collision. whaat are the percentages of collisions while driving defensively? If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only might sustain physical harm.

use a carseat if you want - I usually do, but there are times when the benefits of holding my baby while in a moving vehicle outweigh the risks.
Yeah, no.

We have no statistics showing permanent psychological damage done by OH NOZ A CARSEAT...oh, but we've had plenty of dead babies.

Oh..and if by chance the impossible happened and it DID damage my kid emotionally, yeah, I think I'll pay for the therapy.
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#70 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:04 PM
 
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but this is the FAMILY SAFETY forum...so logic really has to dictate here what is SAFE and what is NOT....transporting a child in a car outside of a car seat is NOT safe.
well really nothing is 'safe'... transporting a child in a car in a carseat is not safe. ita that kids should be in carseats but nobody here has the market cornered on what is and is not safe, it's not a black and white question. i think sometimes that gets forgotten here, and posts that imply some people suck and other people are the ultimate authority can really derail discussion and obscure the purpose of this forum, yk? open discussion is a good thing.
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#71 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:14 PM
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And walking around in a tiger cage of hungry tigers with a piece of raw meat tied to your throat is also perfectly safe...if the tigers are vegetarians.
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#72 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:22 PM
 
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For those who are interested here is a crash test video of what happens when holding an an unrestrained infant.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT...nfant_Test.wmv
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#73 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:35 PM
 
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For those who are interested here is a crash test video of what happens when holding an an unrestrained infant.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT...nfant_Test.wmv
nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.
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#74 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:47 PM
 
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nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.
I have held my child in my arms - and in a sling. I don't care what people do with their kids - just sharing my experiences. All of my children have HATED the carseat. There have been times when we had to go soemwhere (a funeral, older childs doctor appt, etc.) and no amoutn of pulling over and nursing was oing to solve the problem. So, yes, I have taken the baby out of his/her seat and nursed him/her.

My youngest child has a congenital heart defect that actually made it dangerous to cry (she would become cyanotic) and truly she could die if left to cry. So yes, actually on the way home from the hospital after her first heart surgery at 6 days old, I took her out of her seat.

But just to be clear, I took my older children out of their seats even though they did not have heart defects just plain old unhappy crying has been enough for me to do so in the past.

It can and is safe, most of the time.
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#75 of 143 Old 06-05-2008, 11:57 PM
 
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Ive done that too, honestly, but i wouldn't do it now. true thaat its safe unless you're in a wreck, but you can't see a wreck coming in enough time to put the babe back in the seat, yk? isn't car accidents a leading cause of death for children in n. america? too risky IMO, at least here with the frequency we drive. i take th bus when i can coz my babe cries in the carseat.
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It's not safe at all. You only think it's safe because you were never in a collision. Car seats are extremely safe. You are just putting your children's lives in danger because you are ignorant to the risk.

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nobody is advocating that though, unless i missed it? the only person talking about having a child outof a carseat in a moving vehicle was talking about a child in a sling, i believe.
You're correct, but I'm assuming they'd understand how the parents body moves and what would happen with a child in a sling. Obviously the sling is on the parents body, but the child is still going to move as the parents body is thrust forward on impact.
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#78 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 12:40 AM
 
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It's not safe at all. You only think it's safe because you were never in a collision. Car seats are extremely safe. You are just putting your children's lives in danger because you are ignorant to the risk.
I never claimed it was safe if one were to be in a collision. I said it is safe, unless one is in a collision. And it is. The only time it is dangerous is when there is a collision. What I consider, is, what are the chances of a collision?
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#79 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 12:50 AM
 
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Considering that car crashes are the #1 killer of children, I'd say the chances are pretty good

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#80 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 01:19 AM
 
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Off to design the extend-a-boob....
it would seem that after 2 pregnancies, and nursing my dd for 4.5 yrs, and nursing my ds now, i have already invented this. sigh...
that said, no nursing in the carseat isnt the safest, but i did it b/c it was traumatizing for dd to be put in and out of her carseat over and over, and we had to get to where we were going-im tall and was able to reach my boob to her mouth without alot of carseat straddling.
i don't feel bad about it.

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#81 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 01:25 AM
 
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No, it's a perceived benefit vs. a real risk.

Neurobiologists, psychologists, etc. can't agree on what the actual lasting harm is to crying for infants. There are definite neurological changes, and when you compare cultures with different practices, those where they don't use cry-it-out methods to send kids to sleep have lower levels of stress and sleep disorders as adults. We're not talking about CIO as a punishment or a sleep-training method, however; in those cases, there are clearly safe alternatives that don't involve crying.

OTOH, riding improperly restrained in a car is ALWAYS a risk. That is undisputable. No matter how safe a driver *you* are, you cannot guarantee that some idiot won't come careening out of nowhere and slam into you. I've been rear-ended at a dead stop by a drunk driver in a stolen vehicle before. I could not in any way have prevented the accident, except by NOT BEING THERE.

What you really meant to say is "real harm vs. the risk of harm." Again, the harm of allowing the child to cry in the car is debatable (but let's not debate it right now, please; I think everyone here agrees that it should be avoided if possible). You're basically saying "It's worth the gamble of a ticket, a CPS investigation, or my baby dying in an accident to stop them crying without stopping the car." And, while it might be worth all that *to you*, that does not make it a SAFER practice. It's a decision you make, based on how you weigh the issues. Me, I know my child will never die of crying in the car, while they certainly could die pretty easily if I took them out of their carseat in a moving vehicle. Keeping them safe is my first priority.

Finally, there is a big difference between a child crying alone in a room, and a child crying while someone tries to physically or verbally comfort them. If you can pull the child out of the carseat to nurse them (or even lean over and nurse them), you can also stroke their head, hold their hand, or any number of other, safer comfort measures, which would largely mitigate the neurological effects of extended crying.
nicely said

bolding mine-yes, and that's what i do with my ds now.

i love all the physics talk too. smart mamas are hott.

Erin, 33, salty southern mama, sitting by the sea with my DH35, DD10, DS4, &DD2!
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#82 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 01:48 AM
 
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If my baby is screaming, then she is 100% sustaining emotional harm, whereas she only might sustain physical harm.
Seriously? Sustaining emotional harm from crying? : I hardly doubt anyone's child is going to be suffering from any long lasting emotional issues from remaining strapped in a car seat. I seriously can't believe what a ridiculous statement that is. I'm really not trying to pick on you, but I would choose a thousand times to have my child sustaining "emotional harm" than risk their physical safety. My children have spent plenty of (unavoidable) time crying in their car seats and are no worse for wear.

***Please keep in mind that I am not referring to any SN children who might actually be harmed from crying.
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#83 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 01:57 AM
 
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Considering that car crashes are the #1 killer of children, I'd say the chances are pretty good
No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision. I've never been in a collision, and neither has my husband - thats over 45 years of combined driving for us. I actually only know of 2 people in my life who have been in serious car collisions. I do know of several minor collisions. But I know of far more uneventful drives.
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But just to be clear, I took my older children out of their seats even though they did not have heart defects just plain old unhappy crying has been enough for me to do so in the past.
You may possibly be re-enforcing the behavior by "rewarding" the crying with removal from the seat (of course, i dont know your kids)...my foster babe (four months old) was fussing in his seat today on a long (4 hours roundtrip, couple of stops to use bathroom, etc) hot car trip today....it cant be too fun to a baby to be strapped down looking at nothing but the seatback and no one to talk to. i can guarantee that if i took him out when he fussed/cried, every time i tried to use the seat he would fuss to see if i would take him out. Instead (since i was driving) i could only verbally soothe him. He tolerated most of the ride well.

I think if you've (general you) made sitting in the seat optional, then they will know that they dont *really* have to sit in it if they fuss enough. I can count on one hand the times my older son was ever out of his carseat (once was while driving through one of those "wild animal parks", there were no other cars because they intentionally only allow one through at a time, and we were going like five to ten miles an hour due to, yknow, zebras in the road and stuff....and i think *maybe* one other time in a similiar, fairly "safe" situation)...my older son was a super hyper kid that did not generally listen or "obey" and yet he knew that the seat wasnt optional.

I guess i'm lucky in that i didnt have a kid that freaked out in the carseat, and i know part of that is just temperment....but i am doubting that consistently taking a child out of the seat will help them learn to tolerate the seat.


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#85 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 02:00 AM
 
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Seriously? Sustaining emotional harm from crying? : .
Are you serious?? Yes, it can be harmful to let a baby cry. Do you practice crying it out at bedtime? I try and meet my children's needs - I have never let my children cry, if I can avoid it in any way.
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No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision.
Right, chances are that you are not going to be in an accident. The horrible thing about car accidents is that sometimes they are unavoidable, and a death caused by a child being unrestrained and ejected is 100% preventable. Whatever, obviously you are deadset on taking your kids out of the car seat and no amount of me telling you it's unsafe is going to change that, so I sure as hell hope for your kids' safe that you never have a blowout or hit a deer or are struck by a drunk driver.

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You may possibly be re-enforcing the behavior by "rewarding" the crying with removal from the seat (of course, i dont know your kids)...my foster babe (four months old) was fussing in his seat today on a long (4 hours roundtrip, couple of stops to use bathroom, etc) hot car trip today....it cant be too fun to a baby to be strapped down looking at nothing but the seatback and no one to talk to. i can guarantee that if i took him out when he fussed/cried, every time i tried to use the seat he would fuss to see if i would take him out. Instead (since i was driving) i could only verbally soothe him. He tolerated most of the ride well.

I think if you've (general you) made sitting in the seat optional, then they will know that they dont *really* have to sit in it if they fuss enough. I can count on one hand the times my older son was ever out of his carseat (once was while driving through one of those "wild animal parks", there were no other cars because they intentionally only allow one through at a time, and we were going like five to ten miles an hour due to, yknow, zebras in the road and stuff....and i think *maybe* one other time in a similiar, fairly "safe" situation)...my older son was a super hyper kid that did not generally listen or "obey" and yet he knew that the seat wasnt optional.

I guess i'm lucky in that i didnt have a kid that freaked out in the carseat, and i know part of that is just temperment....but i am doubting that consistently taking a child out of the seat will help them learn to tolerate the seat.


Katherine

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I actually think my babies suffer from car sickness. My 9 year old wears "Sea-bands" whenever we are in the car for more than 10 minutes or so. Of course, there are times when my children have tolerated the car seat. But htere are also times when they are not going to settle down, no matter what I try. I am referring to babies, not yet eating or drinking things other than breastmilk. It helps when I can give them a cup of something or snacks to distract them.
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Right, chances are that you are not going to be in an accident. The horrible thing about car accidents is that sometimes they are unavoidable, and a death caused by a child being unrestrained and ejected is 100% preventable. Whatever, obviously you are deadset on taking your kids out of the car seat and no amount of me telling you it's unsafe is going to change that, so I sure as hell hope for your kids' safe that you never have a blowout or hit a deer or are struck by a drunk driver.
Thank you for your kind wishes - peace
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No. Actually, the chances are greatly in favor of not being in a collison. Most people use their cars on a daily basis without being in a collision. I've never been in a collision, and neither has my husband - thats over 45 years of combined driving for us. I actually only know of 2 people in my life who have been in serious car collisions. I do know of several minor collisions. But I know of far more uneventful drives.

I've been in several crashes, none major but all resulting in damage to my car (and all not my fault and total surprises i couldnt avoid), in two of those situations my son was in the car (once as an infant in a bucket, the other as an older child in a seatbelt)....

I think the point that people are trying to make is that if it happens to you, then your risk is 100 percent, and since it would take a VERY minor accident to kill a baby that is not in a carseat, the risk is not worth it (no matter how minor)...i was rearended at a low rate of speed when i was in highschool, and my friend in the passenger seat, belted in, still had her head smacked into the windshield...had she been holding a baby....not good.

I'm generally not "uber safety oriented" in that i think we each need to weigh the risk/benefit for ourselves, and i dont think there is One Right Way when it comes to these things (and i totally agree with thismama that often open communication gets shut down here)....but a car collision is one of those things where, if it happens, you cant take it back or change your mind, and the results can be so devastating. Sure, the same thing can be said of many choices we may make (not vaxing, homebirth, etc)...but the only benefit to a child not being buckled in is not crying (whereas with vaxing, hospital birth, etc....there IS a risk of physical damage and/or death).....when i made controversial choices for my child (nonvaxing/homebirth), i asked myself "what can i live with?" can i live with my child dying because of a choice i made? Would i still feel like i made the best informed decision i could? In the case of a baby dying in a car accident, i dont feel i could say "i know my child was ejected from the car and killed...but he was crying!" and feel ok with that decision. But i guess everyone has to decide that for themselves.


Katherine

Katherine, single homeschooling mom to Boy Genius (17) geek.gif  Thing One (6) and Thing Two (6) fencing.gif and one outgoing Girl (12) bikenew.gif and hoping for more through foster care and adoption homebirth.jpgadoptionheart-1.gif 
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#90 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 02:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
I try and meet my children's needs - I have never let my children cry, if I can avoid it in any way.
When my son was a baby (he's 11 now), i felt like crying was the worst thing in the world for him, and spent alot of time trying to keep him from crying. With this new baby, i guess i just dont think crying is the worst thing in the world. Do i let him cry for hours on end (or even for many minutes)? No. But you can allow your child to communicate his feelings/needs (crying), and you can be there for your child by talking to him, showing empathy, letting them know you are there, you love them, you feel their pain. I think that goes a long way in building a healthy attachment...its not the same as CIO. Its more like saying "yeah, i know it sucks that you are in this seat and are unhappy...i promise we are getting home as soon as possible....you will feel better in a little while"...i think that makes an impression, even if you arent able to do exactly what the child wants (such as getting out of the seat)...and i think for some kids (not all of course), giving that positive reenforcement (yes, you are unhappy, but its ok, i'm here, and we'll get through it together) might help them learn to deal with the situation? i dunno...

Car sickness certainly could be an issue...i wonder if there is a homeopathic or other remedy for that?


Katherine

Katherine, single homeschooling mom to Boy Genius (17) geek.gif  Thing One (6) and Thing Two (6) fencing.gif and one outgoing Girl (12) bikenew.gif and hoping for more through foster care and adoption homebirth.jpgadoptionheart-1.gif 
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