Safety while breastfeeding and riding in the car? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FillingMyQuiver View Post
also, maybe she thought the person was 'certified' but they actually weren't, like the fire dept and police dept members we frequently hear about giving out bad advice.
I think that's exactly what happened. You would not believe some of the wonders I have had to clean up from the local PD/FD at my check station :
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#122 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fairejour View Post
"All children are different"

No, they are all equally unsafe when unbuckled from a carseat.

It is only unsafe if you are in a collision. Otherwise, it's perfectly safe!
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#123 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 09:12 PM
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Four things have to be proved if a paramedic is charged with malpractice. One of them is "The paramedic failed to do what another reasonable paramedic would have done or did what another reasonable paramedic would not have done."

I believe the same holds true for a parent accused of malicious neglect.
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#124 of 143 Old 06-06-2008, 10:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
This doesn't make sense. The units don't work: pounds (mass) x mph does not equal pounds (force).

In order to calculate the force of impact on the baby you need the acceleration of the vehicle. If you go from 30 mph to 0 slowly, there is very little force; hit a wall, and there will be a very large force. You can calculate force = mass x acceleration, where the appropriate units would be newtons = kg x m/s^2 or, in foot/pound units, force-lbs = slugs x ft/s^2 (where a slug is unit of mass defined as 1 force-lb s^2/ft).

/end physics lecture

In any case, the point was a good one. Leaning over the baby in a moving vehicle is dangerous.
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Originally Posted by wendy1221 View Post
If your manual says that, it's wrong, too. I'm a scientist as well, and have taken physics up to quantum mechanics, so yeah, I'm decent at physics. Force=mass*acceleration, not mass*speed. More will be involved than just simply ma, though.

I found this: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...0047.Ph.r.html

ANd anyway, the baby would only be taking the impact of it's own weight*acceleration, not the force of the moms weight or anything else. The seatbelt would take the force of the mom's weight, while the sling would be the thing impacting the baby. THe sling may or may not be strong enough to handle the force of the impact, it depends on the strength of the fabric and the speed you were going befor impact. I doubt the baby would be ejected from a sling as easily as a snugli, but at the same time, there's probably less head support. Plus the sling fabric would usually be more flimsy and likely to tear or break, although the clips on a Snugli are pretty flimsy as well.
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Originally Posted by BeckC View Post
*Former mechanical engineer*

Trillian is right that Force does not equal weight times speed.

Force equals mass times acceleration. *Note - lbs is a weight not a mass*
Acceleration/deceleration in an accident equals the speed you're traveling divided by how long it takes you to stop.
Momentum equals mass times speed.

The weight of something is it's mass times the acceleration due to gravity. So weight is actually a force. (That's why people are lighter on the moon. The force due to gravity is different.)

Therefore, no, you cannot multiply force times speed and get force.

If you stop suddenly as in an accident your acceleration/deceleration will be very high. The faster you are going, the higher your negative acceleration.

In that respect, the techs have the right idea that force is proportional to both your weight and your speed. In other words, as a persons weight goes up, or as the speed you're travelling goes up, the force in an accident also goes up.

However, a 100 lb person in a 30 mph crash would not have a force of 3000 lbs.

ETA: After working it out a 100 lb person stopping from 30 mph to 0 in 0.2 seconds would have a force of about 684 lbs. That is a very basic conclusion though as there are many more systems and forces at play in an accident.

Edited again to add something about acceleration and also to add:

Regardless of exactly the force during an accident, I wouldn't be comfortable with any amount of weight hitting my baby in a car accident 1000 lbs or 10.
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
Actually pounds is a valid unit of force, and can be converted to newtons (the SI unit). Pounds per square inch is a unit of pressure.
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Originally Posted by wendy1221 View Post
mass i sproportional weight on earth, though, so there's no reason to differentiate the 2 in these calculations. You can convert your "force" in lbs to your "mass" in kg, and still call your mass in kg your weight. It's just semantics, really.
Thank all of you. Now, if you all will excuse me, I'm going to go lie down until my headache goes away. :
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#125 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 01:06 AM
 
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This is a good topic with a lot of useful factual information from quite a few techs and engineers. I would greatly appreciate it if everyone could continue this discussion and when posting, do so within MDC UA guidelines. If not, your post(s) will be pulled and appropriate action taken. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

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#126 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 02:06 AM
 
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A seatbelt saved my life.

I can't imagine not giving my child the same chance

Not all those who wander are lost 
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#127 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 04:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ThreeBeans View Post
Well, you don't need to sit without budging, but for optimal safety, you should be upright, with your tush and back as far back in the seat as you can go and your feet planted on the floor.

The two things that you should pay most attention to are making sure the lap belt as drawn tightly under your belly, across your pelvis, and that the shoulder belt rests snugly between your neck and shoulder and crosses your chest in the center, without sliding off your shoulder or coming up against your throat.
i just leaned over and nursed the rear facing strapped in baby beside me without removing the shoulder or lap belt. i figured.... if he was screaming his head off i'd be twisted over trying to soothe him anyway. might as well nurse and actually be effective at calming him down.
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#128 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 11:03 AM
 
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(double post, sorry)
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#129 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 11:05 AM
 
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CIO can indeed be traumatizing, but CIO is not defined by offering the child your soothing presence of voice & touch. Life is difficult, it is the parents responsibility to help the baby. Helping means making sure there is a future for that baby. Incorrect positioning/buckling in a moving vehicle drastically reduces the chance that baby will have a future. Incorrect positioning includes the mother's body leaning over in front of or on to the baby.

Sure, not everyone has a crash everytime they're in a car. On average, according the the New York State Defensive Driving manual, each person has a moderate-severe crash every 10 years. Babies die even in "mild" crashes. 30 MPH crashes are much more violent than most imagine. Increase the speed, increase the risk of death. Crashes are the leading cause of death for all children. Death is merely the tip of the iceberg. Other injuries include brain damage, paralysis, amputation, etc. Most such injuries are easily preventable simply by following the carseat + vehicle manuals. You will never find a manual that says it's OK to lean over your child or to hold your baby in your lap or in a sling. It's never OK unless you're safely parked.

We can only control what happens inside our own vehicles. Not being properly restrained will in fact be traumatizing to *every* member of the family when another vehicle crashes into the family in question because I sincerely doubt any parent could brush off the fact that they chose not to follow safest practice guidelines. The guilt would be unbearable. The choice comes down to helping the baby cope until you find a safe place to park & then hold/nurse/etc. or risk finding yourself holding a dead baby or a baby that will forever need diaper changing, bathing & spoon feeding even as an adult.

We need perspective here. CIO is the lesser evil when the very real, very urgent threat of imminent death or permanent disability looms over head. There are many other safe options for helping children in their carseats: including a predictable routine, blankies, cold teethers, music, soft toys, human touch (without leaning dangerously out of position), etc....
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#130 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 11:15 AM
 
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yeh, its completely EXTREME to restrain a child in a plane.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24969971/

the mom and pilot were injured. the toddler is dead.

for the inconvenience of installing a car seat, the toddler would have had a better chance of living. i mean really....why is this recommendation considered extreme?
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#131 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 11:31 AM
 
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I think we must understand that this is a multicultural/international forum. What's generally considered correct for America may not be the same everywhere.

Also, we take the bus frequently. No car seat, very bumpy, often standing, lots of space to fly around. Why is that okay?
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#132 of 143 Old 06-07-2008, 11:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hanno View Post
I think we must understand that this is a multicultural/international forum. What's generally considered correct for America may not be the same everywhere.

Also, we take the bus frequently. No car seat, very bumpy, often standing, lots of space to fly around. Why is that okay?
Multicultural or not, physics don't change. There is a WORLD WIDE movement to improve child safety on the roads.
http://www.who.int/roadsafety/en/
http://www.globalroadsafety.org/
http://www.worldroadsafety.org/

As for the bus, there's another recent thread that addresses this, specifically, this post

This is pretty enlightening for those who think crashes won't happen to them!
http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/media/crimecrash.gif
(1 fatality every 12 minutes in passenger cars & 1 injury every 11 minutes)

& here is evidence that carseats are wonderful on airplanes :
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/National
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When they looked inside the upturned wreckage they saw an incredible sight – two bodies rested in the front seats, but in the rear, alive and hanging upside down in a car safety seat, was a three-year-old girl.
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#133 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 02:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ironica View Post
It is? Really? I'm surprised to hear this. No one has ever looked at me funny for bringing our Marathon on every single plane flight our son has ever taken. Yes, sometimes they ask if we're checking the seat, but all we have to say is "No, we bought a ticket for him" and that's that.

Not to mention that the position you're calling "extreme" is the one that's consistent with all available guidelines and laws. OTOH, the position you're comparing it to is the one completely CONTRARY to the available guidelines.
I think this is a probably a different country thing. No one here would even think of taking a carseat on a plane! (apart from a bucket for an under one perhaps). We fly a lot and I have never seen a child in a carseat. And actually we have flown in the US pretty often and I have never seen a child in a carseat there either. In the UK you get a lapbelt for a child which attaches to your belt. They are apparently banned in the US, I am not sure why? What I was calling "extreme" was the views of some people on this forum - I have seen it said to people that if they can't afford to buy a seat for an under 2, then they just shouldn't travel, especially for pleasure - it's "not worth the risk". This IS totally extreme when you look at the statistics.
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#134 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 03:27 PM
 
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National Geographic Video: Sioux City Crash: Lap Baby Segment

It's partially about where people live, but it's more about the fact that seatbelts didn't even exist in most US cars until a few decades ago & many countries are still pathetically behind on that factor. Which is why the WHO has become involved with the issue. It takes a long time for people to understand the risks + the very easy solutions.

Yes, there are less crashes in airplanes, but it's not so much about crashing. I, too, have rarely seen carseats used on planes (actually only 1 other than my own) but I have witnessed more than a few injuries to infants & toddlers during turbulence.

What it boils down to is the fact that, once a child suffers otherwise easily preventable injury, no parent would say they don't regret not choosing to follow safest practice. To the contrary, the guilt would last a lifetime.
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#135 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by roxyrox View Post
I have seen it said to people that if they can't afford to buy a seat for an under 2, then they just shouldn't travel, especially for pleasure - it's "not worth the risk". This IS totally extreme when you look at the statistics.
i dont think its an extreme position to take. if i cant afford to transport my child safely, then i cant afford to travel for pleasure. i would rather stay home, swim daily and save up for next year so that i can afford to travel safely. There is a you tube video of a FA urging parents to purchase tickets for their under 2 yo's...they are not only in danger themselves, but they are a danger to other passengers.
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#136 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 04:39 PM
 
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I don't understand why the US doesn't allow the use of lapbelts for infants on their parents' knees. I think they shoud. I also find it hard to believe you have witnessed "more than a few injuries" of toddlers during turbulence though. Severe turbulence is pretty rare, injury is even rarer. Planes are pretty safe, yk?
You could choose to never take your child anywhere because it's "not safe". I think that's a pretty sad way to live personally. Some people can't afford to buy another ticket. Should they just not go on holiday? (yes is the answer of some here). It is a little OTT re carseats here imo. Yes they are good, yes you should use them if you can but if your child is really upset, take then out and comfort them fgs. And don't forfeit holidays b/c you can't buy a seat for your 1yo!
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#137 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 04:46 PM
 
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I don't understand why the US doesn't allow the use of lapbelts for infants on their parents' knees.
Same reason it's not safe to lean over your child in a car -- in the event of an emergency, the baby becomes the adult's airbag.... Squished baby.
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#138 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 04:52 PM
 
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Same reason it's not safe to lean over your child in a car -- in the event of an emergency, the baby becomes the adult's airbag.... Squished baby.
Cars are nothing like planes. In turbulence you generally go up/down. And leaning over you child in a car would be nothing like an airbag- an airbag comes from the opposite direction. In a plane? nothing like an airbag either...
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#139 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 04:53 PM
 
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Thank you Trillian and Wendy for the Physics lesson. That was great.
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#140 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 05:47 PM
 
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i dont think its an extreme position to take. if i cant afford to transport my child safely, then i cant afford to travel for pleasure. i would rather stay home, swim daily and save up for next year so that i can afford to travel safely. There is a you tube video of a FA urging parents to purchase tickets for their under 2 yo's...they are not only in danger themselves, but they are a danger to other passengers.
Swimming is very risky also.
Everyone makes their own diecsions based on their own circumstances. By all means, do what you think is best! I will too Believe it or not, there are other equally safe choices that you might not make.
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#141 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 06:08 PM
 
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I'm just gonna go practice some slow, deep breathing exercises to rid my mind of the unconscionable carelessness of other families.

Mantra: the only family that requires my worry is my own....

(fixed the link)
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#142 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 06:28 PM
 
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I don't even own a car. I ride the city bus & my child rides the school bus. When we carpool/ride-share, kiddo uses a Ride Safer Travel Vest.

In other threads I've said repeatedly that CORRECT USE *always* trumps expensive, fancy features.
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#143 of 143 Old 06-08-2008, 11:13 PM
 
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This thread is back. For those that adhered to the UA, thank you. The information shared within it is important, and because the subject has come up before it should be returned. It will however be locked. Please do not start any spin offs.

Thank you.
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