School age kids and booster seats? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
Top tethers are good to use, and mandatory with some seats, but they are not designed to keep a seat attached to a vehicle. Don't count on them to do that.

5-point harnesses are the safest. There's no question about that. But properly used boosters for children of an appropriate age, size, and maturity level are safe as well. Kyle David ****** was too young and too small for a booster, and I believe the booster was improperly installed as well. That was tragic. But boosters are not death traps.
Not saying boosters are death traps but given the choice, a 5 point harness is always safer.
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#92 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 06:15 PM
 
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I agree, and I stated, that a 5-point harness is always safer. It is not always an option, however.

I hate the Kyle David ****** video. Sorry, but I do. It is emotionally manipulative and technically inaccurate.

I think kids should be in harnesses as long as possible. I advocate for extended harnessing at carseat clinics. I don't think parents should be scared to use boosters when it is physically and developmentally appropriate.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#93 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 06:48 PM
 
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Sorry, but I have to take issue with you on that. I can't imagine that the family of that boy is trying to "emotionally manipulate" anyone. And I'm not sure exactly what's technically inaccurate about it. I don't really think it's about making parents scared to use a booster. I do hope that parents will hesitate to rush their child into a booster. My 8yr old still fits into a 5point harness and that's where she'll stay until there's absolutely NO other choice.
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#94 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 07:04 PM
 
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It's technically inaccurate because it claims LATCH is safer than seatbelts, and encourages parents to use the lower anchors even though many cars don't allow use past 40 or 48 pounds.

It's technically inaccurate because it claims a top tether would keep a carseat from being ejected.

It's technically inaccurate because it implies that a child in a 5-point harness seat would survive being ejected, and that is by no means certain.

It's emotionally manipulative (and I am not questioning the intent of the family, just the effect of the video) because it implies that properly used boosters are not good enough. KDM was too young and too small to be in a booster, and it appears that his booster was being used improperly. And he died. And that was tragic. But there is no reason to believe that a child who was old enough and large enough to use a booster, and that booster was being used properly, would also have died. Boosters aren't bad. Boosters used badly are bad.

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#95 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
It's emotionally manipulative (and I am not questioning the intent of the family, just the effect of the video) because it implies that properly used boosters are not good enough. KDM was too young and too small to be in a booster, and it appears that his booster was being used improperly. And he died. And that was tragic. But there is no reason to believe that a child who was old enough and large enough to use a booster, and that booster was being used properly, would also have died. Boosters aren't bad. Boosters used badly are bad.
IMO boosters aren't ideal. A child should really be left in a 5 point harness if at all possible. Not a 5 point harness or a booster.
And fwiw, a video can't be emotionally manipulative. By calling it emotionally manipulative, it really sounds as if you're interpreting the intent behind the video. They're using their horrible loss to educate other parents. I see that as a very giving thing to do.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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#96 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 08:28 PM
 
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I think you are misunderstanding what I am writing. I have stated in this thread, in other threads in this forum, and in numerous carseat checks IRL, that five-point harnesses are safer than five-point harnesses, and that many children who meet the (very low, IME/IMO) manufacturers' requirements to ride in a BPB would benefit from being in a harnessed seat.

I take issue with your statements:

Quote:
There is also something that happens to kids in boosters called sumbarining or seatbelt syndrome. They slide down just a smidge during an accident and the lap portion of the belt impacts them in such a way as to shear their organs from the inside of thier bodies. Thus a child in a booster who's seat belt does not fail can still be killed by the booster.

{snip}

Both units, the car's belt and the top tether would have to fail for the child to be ejected in their seat.
Submarining and seatbelt syndrome happen when children are too small for boosters or the booster is not being used properly. And a top tether is not designed to and probably will not prevent ejection if a seatbelt or the lower anchors fail: it is inaccurate to claim that it is another line of defense.

Again, if I haven't written it enough: five-point harnesses are safer than three-point harnesses. But for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. It's not a question of "booster bad, harness good", but "booster good, harness better".

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#97 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 08:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post
Submarining and seatbelt syndrome happen when children are too small for boosters or the booster is not being used properly. And a top tether is not designed to and probably will not prevent ejection if a seatbelt or the lower anchors fail: it is inaccurate to claim that it is another line of defense.".
I'm not being a smarty, could you tell me why the tether is there if it's not meant to "tether" the seat into the car? I honestly don't know the answer to this question and would like to know. And even if the tether doesn't hold the seat in the car, the 5point carseat will protect a child that is ejected...a booster won't.

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Again, if I haven't written it enough: five-point harnesses are safer than three-point harnesses. But for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. It's not a question of "booster bad, harness good", but "booster good, harness better".
This is where we agree. But I'd still say it worries me that a parent might read, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice." and move their child out of a 5point harness for comfort or convenience or to make the child feel like " a big boy/girl". I would rather hear something like, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. BUT a 5point harness is the safest choice."
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#98 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 09:01 PM
 
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I'm not being a smarty, could you tell me why the tether is there if it's not meant to "tether" the seat into the car? I honestly don't know the answer to this question and would like to know. And even if the tether doesn't hold the seat in the car, the 5point carseat will protect a child that is ejected...a booster won't.
A top tether stabilizes the top of the seat and helps to reduce head excursion. The top tether bolts and top tether strap are not designed to withstand the force of an impact. And honestly, ejection is a pretty big deal. I have my doubts that a carseat shell will protect a child adequately in the event of an ejection. It might. But my educated guess is that many accidents with ejections are simply not survivable. Again, I am NOT arguing that harnessed seats are bad or worthless. They are not. They are terrific.

Quote:
This is where we agree. But I'd still say it worries me that a parent might read, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice." and move their child out of a 5point harness for comfort or convenience or to make the child feel like " a big boy/girl". I would rather hear something like, "for children over, say, 5 years and 50 pounds, high-backed belt-positioning boosters are a perfecty appropriate and very safe choice. BUT a 5point harness is the safest choice."
You may not like this. I don't even like it all that much. But it is a parent's right to make that choice. As a CPST and advocate, I fear that I will lose credibility by telling parents that they need to keep their kids harnessed to 80 pounds. They're likely to laugh at me, and then dismiss everything else I have to say. I also worry -- and have seen with my own eyes -- that parents are so scared of boosters after watching the KDM video that they cram their 50-pound kids into 40-pound seats. That's bad. That's way worse than putting that 50-pound kid into a good highbacked booster.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#99 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 09:28 PM
 
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Good points! I can attest from my side of things that out of 6 or so friends I forwarded the video to, four put their kids back into a well fitted 5 point harness. That's a success. It's sad to hear that it doesn't always work out so well.
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#100 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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so what about the tall skinny 50 lb 8 year old? she has a backless booster....
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#101 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 09:56 PM
 
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so what about the tall skinny 50 lb 8 year old? she has a backless booster....
How tall? I would really prefer to see a 50-pound child in at least a high-back booster.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#102 of 102 Old 07-26-2008, 10:14 PM
 
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I too would prefer a high backed booster. A high backed booster, especially one w/ good side impact protection is going to offer loads more protection than a backless booster. I have some great side impact crash tests of boosters if you'd like to see them. If you sit her against a wall, you can measure from the floor to her shoulders to get her torso height. It's not far fetched that she may just be too tall for a high backed booster and in that case a backless is best.

Here's a good visual of why top tethers are so important.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...uch/Tether.jpg

Jennifer, LPN and nursing student, Doula, CPST, and VBAC mama x3 to
AJ (5/03), Evan (12/04), Ilana (11/06), Olivia (2/09), and Unity (8/2012)

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