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#361 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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I've been following the discussion with interest. What I do tend to find frustrating is that these dialogues typically move into a white/black discussion, where the reality of race in America isn't the interplay of (a) and (b), but rather the interplay of (a),(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), etc., etc.

Taking futurmama's example of college admissions, I think everyone with any connection with the mainstream academic world, especially before the Supreme Court's opinion in the Regents case, has to acknowledge the general racial hierarchy in college admissions, that being:

Black/Native American
Hispanic
White
Asian and East Indian

So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
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#362 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 02:25 PM
 
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Thanks for joining the discussion Jane91!

The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa.
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#363 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 03:43 PM
 
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So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
I really think it could be a moot question considering that 2005 stats showed that 8% of AA graduated college as opposed to 16% of whites. That's still a huge difference. Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites.

*I'm still looking for application v. admissions stats, though. Got a link by chance?*
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#364 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
I've been following the discussion with interest. What I do tend to find frustrating is that these dialogues typically move into a white/black discussion, where the reality of race in America isn't the interplay of (a) and (b), but rather the interplay of (a),(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), etc., etc.

Taking futurmama's example of college admissions, I think everyone with any connection with the mainstream academic world, especially before the Supreme Court's opinion in the Regents case, has to acknowledge the general racial hierarchy in college admissions, that being:

Black/Native American
Hispanic
White
Asian and East Indian

So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?
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#365 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:12 PM
 
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"The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa."

But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?

I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?

Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.

Danelle --

"Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites."

And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.

A friend once pointed out that the press treats Asians as defacto whites on certain issues (particularly education). For example any news article titled "Minorities Underperform Whites on State Achievement Tests" is implicitly excluding Asians from their usage of the term "minorities" as Asians traditionally outperform Whites.
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#366 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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"
Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.

Am I correct in assuming then that you are a Director of Admissions at a highly selective college?
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#367 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:26 PM
 
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Our three kids are darker than my MIL. Her family is AA & Blackfeet Indian. She was listed as white on her birth certificate. I SWEAR the officials went into the nursery and just checked it off without talking or seeing her parents.

My in-laws now make the statement that because I have Lumbee Indian in me (and it's a tri-racial group) that I'm not at all white. The 80% German & Amish is somehow forgotten. They say that this is why the kids aren't light-skinned. Of course, this is forgotten when I act like a hippie white girl to them.:

This is compounded by the fact that the kids are much darker than any of their mixed cousins and even a few of their non-mixed cousins. From DH's side of the family, I have to listen to the "Those kids don't look white at all," statement continuously.

Honestly, I get along well with DH's side. We'll see what happens when we move within an hour of where he grew up. Who knows what they will think then.

On my side, the least headstrong child is the one that my parents are attached to. Sadly, they don't even act like the others really exist. We don't see them much because of that. That story is another whole bag of chips, anway.
I was reading and saw that you have Lumbee Indian in your family...we live not far from Lumberton, NC. Are you from that area?
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#368 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:30 PM
 
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"Am I correct in assuming then that you are a Director of Admissions at a highly selective college?"

I am best friends since elementary school with the daughter of the Director of Admissions at one of the public ivys and heard the Director discuss these issues a number of times.

I also attended law school while the Regents case was being litigated/decided and heard issues about race and college admissions being discussed numerous times, including several presentations and a panel with admissions officers.

Anyone who believes that the under-representation of certain minorities at universities is the result of discrimination at the admissions office level versus the awful job many of our public schools do preparing minority students for college hasn't visited academia recently.
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#369 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:31 PM
 
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I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Now I am reminded of the conversation I had with a fellow 9th grader when I was such. We started talking about the movie Roots. (I am black, she is white) I said that was horrible what whites did to blacks back then. Her response was if you guys were control you would have enslaved us. Out the window goes the conversation.

This assumption that our goal is payback. Are we not a new thought of mom wanting a better tomorrow for our kids? Are we not seeking a new ways to embrace people? Do you really see blacks and others as looking to oppress you?
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#370 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:45 PM
 
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"This assumption that our goal is payback. Are we not a new thought of mom wanting a better tomorrow for our kids? Are we not seeking a new ways to embrace people? Do you really see blacks and others as looking to oppress you?"

Nope, and that's not what I indicated in my original question. My original question is to what extent can groups change their place within the existing power structure by piggy-backing off of other group's power, or by allying themselves with another group and if such alliances could ever reach a place of "racism" against another minority group not so-allied.

Inevitably, at a certain point, Whites will not be the majority race in the USA. As we are a representative democracy, this opens up opportunities for other groups to more easily elect and chose representatives of their own race (if they so choose) or representatives that further issues important to that particular racial group (restitution/immigration, etc.). I am interested in a discussion of the extent to which such different minorities would be cohesive and/or antagonistic in terms of trying to achieve their goals.

For example, I have lived near a majority Black city with a large Mexicantown area, which has essentially suppressed Hispanic representation for years simply by electing its City Council "at large" rather than by district. This is something that will continue to play out on a larger scale as the White population forms a smaller percentage of the total population.
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#371 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:46 PM
 
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Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.
I think that your key words there are "all things being equal". Because, generally, all things will not be equal and, right there, your hierarchy of power crumbles.

And actually, yes, I do think there is a fair amount of discrimination that still takes place at the admissions level. Additionally, at one time, schools in Virginia had a policy of allowing minorities at state schools to attend tuition-free. At state supported HBCUs, whites went tuition-free because they were a minority on campus. Unfortunately, this policy was not communicated to black students at predominantly white schools, which means many either didn't go to college or didn't finish. So maybe, at some schools, the discrimination isn't as much at the admissions level, but it does happen and the impact is the same. So again, your hierarchy doesn't work.
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#372 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 06:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jane91;13447056[QUOTE
]"The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa."

But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?
A minority will not align with white people because they will never be white. A minority is a minority and will never be considered white. Just because you may believe certain issues that the majority has, it doesn't mean you will "become" part of the majority. Again when we say POWER we are talking SYSTEMIC and INSTITUTIONAL, that is government, judges, school admissions people, police, minorities are far from becoming in power within these systems.

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I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Won't matter if the U.S population is majority hispanic (since they are projected to become the majority in a few years) the power structure of systemic and institutional power will still be in control of white people. They may have a better chance of entering these power structures like congress but the majority in these will be white.

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Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.
Why are they most desirable? That is the true question to ask.

Danelle --

Quote:
"Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites."

And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.

A friend once pointed out that the press treats Asians as defacto whites on certain issues (particularly education). For example any news article titled "Minorities Underperform Whites on State Achievement Tests" is implicitly excluding Asians from their usage of the term "minorities" as Asians traditionally outperform Whites.
Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau.
These are graduation rates and college graduation rates get much lower. There is a huge disparity betweeen whites and minorites. So when you look at percentages you need to look at that in terms of the race as a percentage in the U.S. A higher percentage is not always a better thing.

Asians are seen as the model minority" which says a lot for how this nation views minorities. College graduation rates for minorities are much more dismal.
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#373 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 07:02 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Jane91;13447269]
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Nope, and that's not what I indicated in my original question. My original question is to what extent can groups change their place within the existing power structure by piggy-backing off of other group's power, or by allying themselves with another group and if such alliances could ever reach a place of "racism" against another minority group not so-allied.
Why should there even be alliances against groups just so you can get power over another group?? That just makes Yinsum's point. Minorties don't see a let's get with the white people so we can be more powerful than that other group. That is a very horrible thing to even suggest be done.

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Inevitably, at a certain point, Whites will not be the majority race in the USA. As we are a representative democracy, this opens up opportunities for other groups to more easily elect and chose representatives of their own race (if they so choose) or representatives that further issues important to that particular racial group (restitution/immigration, etc.). I am interested in a discussion of the extent to which such different minorities would be cohesive and/or antagonistic in terms of trying to achieve their goals.
As I said whether whites are in the minority population wise they will still be the majority within the power structures of this country.
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#374 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 07:05 PM
 
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Thanks futurmama
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#375 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 07:15 PM
 
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Your welcome girl
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#376 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 08:26 PM
 
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I'm pretty nervous about asking this but I figure what the heck.

As a white person how should I behave in order to combat racism? I'm very serious. I'm not going to claim that I am 'color blind' because I'm not. I notice when people are different than me and I notice how we are similar. When I taught I did my best to call students on their racist language/attitudes and I did my best to make sure that the POC kids felt like they weren't being drowned out by the white kids. (I was told I did that pretty well.)

But this all feels like not enough. When I read threads like this (and I read the whole thing) it feels like there is an attitude of, "POC suffer because of whites" and there is a lot of blame associated with that and I don't know what to do about it. I cast my vote for the most qualified candidate and that means that I vote for people of all colors but I'm not going to vote against whites just because they are white anymore than I will with any other race.

I feel like there is no way for whites to atone for white guilt and that feels very frustrating.

My advice may not be appropriate for you. That's ok. You are just fine how you are and I am the right kind of me.

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#377 of 417 Old 03-27-2009, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post



Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau.
These are graduation rates and college graduation rates get much lower. There is a huge disparity betweeen whites and minorites. So when you look at percentages you need to look at that in terms of the race as a percentage in the U.S. A higher percentage is not always a better thing.

Asians are seen as the model minority" which says a lot for how this nation views minorities. College graduation rates for minorities are much more dismal.
Thank you futuremama8. I don't know why stats are so easily ignored. My college experience: Predominantly white, HOWEVER, I was in a student work program through the college that gave me a job in their library. I was the *only* white person in my department in the program. My more economically privileged counterparts had daddy's credit cards and their own apartments. What an eye opening experience. Even watching my workmates work twice as hard in the same classes.

I stand by my statement that the Affirmative Action Admissions vs. other admissions is moot. The point of AA is to help minorities, and when they still have a significantly lower graduation rate, it's OBVIOUS to me that those students are still running into the white power structures that dominate educational institutions.
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#378 of 417 Old 03-28-2009, 04:19 PM
 
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I think futurmama posed a valid question:
Why are AAs the most desirable candidates?
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Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
Anyone who believes that the under-representation of certain minorities at universities is the result of discrimination at the admissions office level versus the awful job many of our public schools do preparing minority students for college hasn't visited academia recently.
Yeah, there’s no arguing that the public schools neglect to prepare minority students (and poor students) for college entry. Let’s not forget that politics and economic power are what influence the quality of public schools, provided for by local and state government.

As a side note: When it comes to education, *I* don’t believe everyone should be college bound. The most “successful” people that *I personally know* never went to college (let me also add, they are all immigrants). So, while I agree that we should recruit and provide higher education for whoever is qualified and interested in pursuing it, I don’t think it’s the only route to help our citizens become productive members of society. Therefore, I don’t believe the sole focus should entail college entrance or attendance.

Back to how poorly the schools prepare students for college, my mind’s scattered in many directions- trying to expand on this point without writing a thesis

The few examples that come to mind - come from various sources (OK, I admit -from all over the place. <shrug>).
First, one isolated example I’m thinking of- is from the movie “Stand and Deliver”, based on a true story about a teacher (Escalante) in East L.A. High School, where the expectations of students (mostly Mexican) was so low, AP courses (Calculus) weren’t even offered.

Next, Jonathan Kozol (heard him speak live about a decade ago), author of several books where he discusses the disparity in education based on class and race. He examines the deplorable conditions and segregation that still exists for minority students in the public schools today, more than half a century after Brown vs. the Board of Ed.
A summary of his book, “Savage Inequalities”
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kasto...ws-savage.html

Here’s J. Kozol on youtube, The Shame of the Nation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VS9XHbEaFY
Another youtube vid, "Education in America" (6 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgkZK...eature=related

Let me add: According to Kozol, the most segregated school systems in the country are NY, Michigan, and Illinois- in that order.

Thanks to this thread, I’ve also found some vids on youtube of Tim Wise (author of “White Like Me”)...... but I’m having trouble finding the link where he talks about how the lack of AP/college prep courses (paraphrasing, I have to find that link) in minority schools.

Lastly, I think of First Lady Michelle Obama’s undergraduate thesis at Princeton, “Educated Blacks and the Black Community”(1985) ....
What's the experience of students once they're in colleges/universy? (How relevant is this today? I mean, with the increase pressure of political correctness, there might be a decrease in openly expressing racism. But what about people's deep-rooted ideas about race?)
An excerpt from the 1st Lady’s thesis: “My experiences at Princeton have made me far more aware of my “Blackness” than ever before. I have found that at Princeton no matter how liberal and open-minded some of my White professors and classmates try to be toward me, I sometimes feel like a visitor on campus; as if I really don’t belong. Regardless of the circumstances underwhich I interact with Whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, I will always be Black first and a student second. ”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2305083/Pr...lack-Community

I have a few minority friends who encountered a similar experience to the 1st Lady. One friend of mine struggled so much, that she dropped out of Columbia.
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#379 of 417 Old 03-28-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?
Historically, the minority groups that have been able to integrate with the majority, just do so. They haven't "turned on" the majority group.
At least, that has been the experience of most European minority groups in the past who have joined together to form the White majority race.
If you get a chance, watch Tim Wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npP3g1OEE1A

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I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Who knows? I don't see Hispanics/Blacks come into power anytime soon, not even if they make up the majority in numbers.
I already mentioned that the 2000 Census changed it's criteria to defining the White race to pertain to anyone whose ancestry is at least 75% European, Middle Eastern, or Northern African.
I fit that description, but physically I don't fit the perception of White (DNA's funny like that), nor would I self-identify as such. I bet if we strictly adhere to this new description, plenty of people who self-identify or are identified by others as members of other races (AA, Asian, Native American, Hispanic) would all now qualify as White. But when you're not perceived nor do you self-identify as such, that's pretty confusing. I questioned earlier in the thread what the motive in implementing this change was and how relevant it is to the increase in population of minority groups of color. I'm not sure if this was pushed by the minority groups or from elsewhere?
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For example, I have lived near a majority Black city with a large Mexicantown area, which has essentially suppressed Hispanic representation for years simply by electing its City Council "at large" rather than by district. This is something that will continue to play out on a larger scale as the White population forms a smaller percentage of the total population.
We'll probably continue to witness this type of "restructuring" (don't know what else to call it), as the groups in power try to maintain the status quo.
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And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.
Other immigrant groups (or their children) have also outnumbered Whites in college graduation.

However, I'd caution that it's not fair to compare immigrant groups to American minority groups (including to poor Whites).
You have to look beyond the surface into each individual immigrant group and what they're comprised of.
Some immigrant groups predominantly come from the lower socioeconomic groups of their native country and their compatriots who belong to a higher socioeconomic status remain in their countries of origin. These immigrants for the most part are already poor, poorly educated, poorly skilled, in addition to having to deal with typical immigrant obstacles to assimilation. Of course, it's more difficult for them to succeed than it is for other immigrant groups to.
Other immigrant groups, come from the higher socioeconomic status in their countries of origin, so they have less obstacles to overcome.
Immigrants who conglomerate into neighborhoods where they can open up their own businesses (high demand for their products/services), creating their own opportunities (not having to compete with other Americans for jobs), increasing their political power by their numbers- are likely to move up the socioeconomic ladder quickly.
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#380 of 417 Old 03-28-2009, 07:03 PM
 
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I already mentioned that the 2000 Census changed it's criteria to defining the White race to pertain to anyone whose ancestry is at least 75% European, Middle Eastern, or Northern African.

I must have missed that post. According to that, I am not white, because I am 50% Swiss, the other half being a combination of Mexican and Native American.

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#381 of 417 Old 03-28-2009, 08:17 PM
 
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I must have missed that post. According to that, I am not white, because I am 50% Swiss, the other half being a combination of Mexican and Native American.
One of the weirdest things, I find is that apparently in the US, people are officially categorised under a race or what is officially defined as race. Do citizens of the US see this as a good or bad thing, I mean do you feel the categorising has clear advantages to it as a good reason of existance? Or is it part of the overall systemic racism problem?

The result of these 'official definitions on race' must also be that many many people who are oficially defined as 'white/black/other' are actually not at all 'white/black... in appearance/' and the result may also very well be that many people considered white officially may experience a lot of prejudice/bigotry (considering US definition of racism in this discussion) in reality, and vice versa again. And well, how does all this has effects to 'statistics' considering 'racial categories'.

In my coi, you may be 50/50 or 25/75 European/African descent and look very much like African but no form would require you to fill in 'race' of any kind. There will be records of own/parental/ancestral (original) nationalities for sure, but not 'race'. I just find this unthinkable.

I am learning on this thread from all of you, as racism has always been a topic that I have been trying to understand, but I am very curious about the above.
(I am a Western European living in Western Asia, hereby not defining race but geograpical origin/state :-).

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#382 of 417 Old 03-29-2009, 11:48 AM
 
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when we are discussing how this issue impacts college admissions, i am forced to think of an interesting exercise that was taken when i was in undergrad. the professor asked the white students to give their best estimate of the percentage breakdowns of ethnic groups on campus.

my friend and i watched as people assured themselves that our campus had 40% black enrollment. and like 35% asian and 10% hispanic and latino. we were amazed and then the professor turned to myself and my friend -- who were the only black women in the class -- and asked if that was how we saw the campus. most certainly not!

so we went on to give our estimates and he said that perceptions are key (as we were in a journalism class) as they color how we tell our stories. he they went on to state that the percentages expressed buy our mostly white classmates were because of the mindset of well, we see a few of them together so there has to be more and things really are changing. when nothing could be further from the truth. then he read off the depressing stats of the actual percentages on campus.

i think as long as i live, i will never forget that because it was so true and really made folks stop to think.

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#383 of 417 Old 03-30-2009, 12:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bad Mama Jama View Post
he they went on to state that the percentages expressed buy our mostly white classmates were because of the mindset of well, we see a few of them together so there has to be more and things really are changing. when nothing could be further from the truth. then he read off the depressing stats of the actual percentages on campus.

i think as long as i live, i will never forget that because it was so true and really made folks stop to think.
And that's the crux of this thread isn't it, Perception?
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#384 of 417 Old 04-01-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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Was that perception the crux of the thread? I just know she talked about racism in reverse which is something that doesn't make sense.
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#385 of 417 Old 04-01-2009, 06:23 PM
 
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Michelle Obama, in her most recent interview with Oprah notes:

"Oprah: Okay, shifting gears now. How are you a different woman today than you were when Barack Obama announced his candidacy in 2007?

Michelle Obama: I'm more optimistic. More hopeful. It comes from traveling all over America and connecting with so many different people. And this was long before anyone thought Barack had a chance. This was the kindness of strangers. I think we should all have to get to know one another around kitchen tables. It changed me. It's helped me to give other people the benefit of the doubt."

This is a stark difference from that portion quoted from her thesis. So maybe the problem she notes in her college thesis with her "liberal and well-meaning" classmates was, to a certain extent HER perception. Maybe she was unable to connect and felt different because she made certain false assumptions (that they were really racist underneath it all), rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.

And that raises an interesting question -- to what extent is it the responsibility of a white person to make a minority person comfortable in a particular environment? Is it enough to treat such a person as you would a white person, or should I, for example, when a new co-worker (who happens to a a minority) starts at my office make an extra effort? I'm pretty reserved, but should there be an extra wide smile, extra invitations to lunch and extra offers of help orienting to the office than how I would behave if my new co-worker was white? To what extent is it my responsibility to "prove" I'm not racist? To what extent is it the other person's responsibility to "assume" (prior to evidence to the contrary) that I'm not racist?

I'm certainly willing to make an extra effort if that's the fair and moral thing to do, but sometimes things reach the point where I feel its no longer my responsibility. For example, in one of my college class discussions of racial issues, one of my black classmates talked about how the mere existence of my blonde ponytail (and especially how I would pull it out from under my coat collar when I put my coat on after class) irritated her. I was fine but my hair drove her nuts. While I can understand the social/historical origins of her issue, at the end of the day that was HER issue to work out. It shouldn't be my responsibility to dye my hair brown to make her comfortable.
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#386 of 417 Old 04-01-2009, 06:30 PM
 
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"Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau."

I would love to see these numbers broken out by race AND socio-economic class. I would guess that graduation rate percentages of different races across identical economic classes would be more similar. This would point to the disparity being more the result of historical discrimination (resulting in economic class difference) than current active discrimination. But maybe I'm just a crazy optimist.
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#387 of 417 Old 04-01-2009, 06:36 PM
 
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"Why should there even be alliances against groups just so you can get power over another group?? That just makes Yinsum's point. Minorties don't see a let's get with the white people so we can be more powerful than that other group. That is a very horrible thing to even suggest be done."

This makes NO sense to me and you are missing my point. Why would suggesting that black and hispanic activists join together and encourage their respective voting blocks to vote to perserve, say, affirmative action hiring in the State of California be "a very horrible thing to even suggest be done"?
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#388 of 417 Old 04-01-2009, 10:19 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Jane91;13478065]
Quote:
Michelle Obama, in her most recent interview with Oprah notes:

"Oprah: Okay, shifting gears now. How are you a different woman today than you were when Barack Obama announced his candidacy in 2007?

Michelle Obama: I'm more optimistic. More hopeful. It comes from traveling all over America and connecting with so many different people. And this was long before anyone thought Barack had a chance. This was the kindness of strangers. I think we should all have to get to know one another around kitchen tables. It changed me. It's helped me to give other people the benefit of the doubt."

This is a stark difference from that portion quoted from her thesis. So maybe the problem she notes in her college thesis with her "liberal and well-meaning" classmates was, to a certain extent HER perception. Maybe she was unable to connect and felt different because she made certain false assumptions (that they were really racist underneath it all), rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.
Michelle Obama's thesis was racist?? No, her thesis was a reaction to the racism she experienced. It is easy for a white person to think a minority is makes "false assumptions" because they can't recognize it unless they really want to. I doubt Michelle's stance from her thesis days have changed much, she just knows that saying those types of truth will freak a majority white nation out.
Quote:
And that raises an interesting question -- to what extent is it the responsibility of a white person to make a minority person comfortable in a particular environment? Is it enough to treat such a person as you would a white person, or should I, for example, when a new co-worker (who happens to a a minority) starts at my office make an extra effort? I'm pretty reserved, but should there be an extra wide smile, extra invitations to lunch and extra offers of help orienting to the office than how I would behave if my new co-worker was white? To what extent is it my responsibility to "prove" I'm not racist? To what extent is it the other person's responsibility to "assume" (prior to evidence to the contrary) that I'm not racist?
Why do you need to just make a minority comfortable. A person is a person before they are their skin color except to people like you who see color before the person. I mean why would you have to treat a minority even better then a white person to not seem racist? I would think that is someone with a guilty conscience. You do not have to prove you aren't racist if your not because you just know. I don't get what this has to do with anything though??
Quote:
I'm certainly willing to make an extra effort if that's the fair and moral thing to do, but sometimes things reach the point where I feel its no longer my responsibility.
It isn't your responsibility.....
Quote:
For example, in one of my college class discussions of racial issues, one of my black classmates talked about how the mere existence of my blonde ponytail (and especially how I would pull it out from under my coat collar when I put my coat on after class) irritated her. I was fine but my hair drove her nuts. While I can understand the social/historical origins of her issue, at the end of the day that was HER issue to work out. It shouldn't be my responsibility to dye my hair brown to make her comfortable.
Obviously that is something she has to deal with, you don't have to do anything about that???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
"Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau."

I would love to see these numbers broken out by race AND socio-economic class. I would guess that graduation rate percentages of different races across identical economic classes would be more similar. This would point to the disparity being more the result of historical discrimination (resulting in economic class difference) than current active discrimination. But maybe I'm just a crazy optimist.
You can calculate them like I did, it takes sometime but you can answer your own question and let us know. I speculate that most minority groups in college come from a higher socio-economic status hence the huge disparity of blacks, Native Americans, and hispanics in poverty and the low numbers in college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
"Why should there even be alliances against groups just so you can get power over another group?? That just makes Yinsum's point. Minorties don't see a let's get with the white people so we can be more powerful than that other group. That is a very horrible thing to even suggest be done."

This makes NO sense to me and you are missing my point. Why would suggesting that black and hispanic activists join together and encourage their respective voting blocks to vote to perserve, say, affirmative action hiring in the State of California be "a very horrible thing to even suggest be done"?
What?? You wrote and I quote,
Quote:
My original question is to what extent can groups change their place within the existing power structure by piggy-backing off of other group's power, or by allying themselves with another group and if such alliances could ever reach a place of "racism" against another minority group not so-allied.
Piggy-backing off other groups power or having alliances AGAINST a not so allied group is a horrible thing to suggest. Why would groups team up to together to get another minority group? You wrote that and it is apalling that you are actually saying this. Minority groups don't think of teaming up and then ganging up on another group to make things better for themselves. That is absolutely ridiculous, seriously.
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#389 of 417 Old 04-02-2009, 12:47 AM
 
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Futurmama -- I am finding this discussion rather frustrating as you seem to twist what I am saying into something else entirely or mistake plain meaning or layer in wild assumptions (for example, I never claim Michelle Obama's thesis was racist) out of thin air.

So -- basically you are claiming Michelle Obama is a liar and despite having her husband elected as president, believes that virtually all white people are racists. Interesting.

My actual POINT about her thesis was that she acknowledges that her classmates were well-meaning and liberal but that wasn't enough to make her comfortable on campus. I was asking then if being welcoming and well-meaning and so forth ISN'T enough in individual relations between blacks and whites then what the heck is?

You seem to repeatedly interpret my discussion about group alliances and so forth incorrectly.

"Piggy-backing off other groups power or having alliances AGAINST a not so allied group is a horrible thing to suggest. Why would groups team up to together to get another minority group?"

Its not "to get" another minority group. Its to accomplish a particular political goal. I'm curious why, at least in my experience, community leaders from one minority group and community leaders from another don't seem to do much horse-trading -- support for one issue that benefits a particular group in exchange for an issue that benefits the other. Happens in Congress all the time..."I'll support your bill if you'll support mine...."
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#390 of 417 Old 04-02-2009, 01:17 AM
 
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[QUOTE=Jane91;13480562]
Quote:
Futurmama -- I am finding this discussion rather frustrating as you seem to twist what I am saying into something else entirely or mistake plain meaning or layer in wild assumptions (for example, I never claim Michelle Obama's thesis was racist) out of thin air.
I was asking a question, that is why I had these ?? at the end. You mentioned racism and I didn't know who you were talking about. I am not trying to turn what you say, but that is the way I am seeing it.
Quote:
So -- basically you are claiming Michelle Obama is a liar and despite having her husband elected as president, believes that virtually all white people are racists. Interesting.
Why would she be a liar? All I am saying is that she probably knows bringing up some of the things in her thesis will cause some crazy reaction. Like Jeremiah Wright, most of what he said (not the soundbites and editing to make what he said worse then it was) is true but white America could NOT handle that.
Quote:
My actual POINT about her thesis was that she acknowledges that her classmates were well-meaning and liberal but that wasn't enough to make her comfortable on campus.
I have many liberal, well-meaning friends but that doesn't cover nor erase their ignorance of racism, predjudice or how I may feel.

Quote:
I was asking then if being welcoming and well-meaning and so forth ISN'T enough in individual relations between blacks and whites then what the heck is?
That FORCED emotion is so not believable because it is not real. Why do you have to be extra anything? Eventually a person can't keep that facade up. Just being who you are is enough, I find that very fake and most people can see through fake people. Having someone understand and actually know what your going through, like Missy, Danelle78, Yinsum, Artgoddess, etc., despite what race they are is enough.

Some of those people probably didn't realize how they made Michelle feel because they are not aware of their ignorance and probably see it as normal, right behavior but it is a red flag that they really aren't what you initially expected.

Quote:
You seem to repeatedly interpret my discussion about group alliances and so forth incorrectly.
I am just going by your posts and that's it.



Quote:
Its not "to get" another minority group. Its to accomplish a particular political goal.
But that is what you wrote or that is how I came to understand it.

Quote:
I'm curious why, at least in my experience, community leaders from one minority group and community leaders from another don't seem to do much horse-trading -- support for one issue that benefits a particular group in exchange for an issue that benefits the other. Happens in Congress all the time..."I'll support your bill if you'll support mine...."
So you are saying for example, Native Americans and blacks should get together and do a "I will scratch your back if you scratch mine"? The question is, why does this even need to happen? This shouldn't even be a suggestion from anyone, this country needs to recognize the problems of ALL people and find ways to improve on them instead of minorities getting together to "scheme a way to the top". And doing that in congress seems a little unethical to me but that is probably why this country is in this shape.
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