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#181 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
Okay I get what your saying. Wouldn't these people be reacting to the racism that they have felt from white people in the past and present? I really see them being skeptical and not trusting of white people from their past. I know this is true within the black community, so many mothers try to tell their sons not date white women because they can cause trouble and get you hurt (which in SOME cases it is still true like Genarlow Wilson). This mindset in the black community has been passed down and it is very understandable (look at Emmit Till) and it is NOT racism but a reaction to the racism. Maybe that is how the people in Hawaii feel, maybe their anscetors passed down horrible things that happened to them by white people and now they have a disdain for them. Just throwing ideas out thats all.
I'm sure there is some of that, but just like victims of child abuse are not excused when they grow up to abuse their own children, victims of racism shouldn't be excused if they grow up to be racists themselves. I disagree that POC can't be racist because anyone who hates another race is practicing racism. Whites in Hawaii are in the unusual position of being the minority for a change and people act like it is impossible for us to experience discrimination, but it does happen. You notice when you walk into a place of business and don't get a greeting like the other customers.
You notice when you aren't extended the same courtesies, or when you are ignored and passed over when it's your turn in line, or yelled at, or a cashier says she has to go get register tape and doesn't return, so you move to another line because she clearly isn't coming back and on your way out of the store you see her outside with a cigarette.

I don't want my kids to grow up thinking it's OK to hate because others have hated them, yk? There are legitimate gripes on both sides. I've seen AA friends who were so amazingly cool in the face of discrimination it blew my mind, but they had already learned what I'm still learning...even when you're legitimately p1$$ed off, people don't respond to that well. If the people who are against you can p1$$ you off, they win. And it's very difficult to present your case or demonstrate how you've been wronged without getting angry, no matter who you are or what your background.

I hate feeling like our social circle is going to be limited because people are afraid of each other here.

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#182 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 07:27 PM
 
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I don't see anyone saying that it isn't possible for whites to experience discrimination. I'm also really not sure how to word my feelings about your stance that it is the those who have been the victims of centuries of racism who should take on the added responsibility of checking their feelings being above the racism they face daily and bridging the gap that they did not create. it's not the responsibility of the Hawaiians to fix the racism problems in Hawaii. They did not create the problem. Maybe someone with more patience than myself can tackle that one.
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#183 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 08:00 PM
 
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I don't see anyone saying that it isn't possible for whites to experience discrimination. I'm also really not sure how to word my feelings your stance that it is the those who have been the victims of centuries of racism who should take on the added responsibility of checking their feelings being above the racism they face daily and bridging the gap that they did not create. Maybe someone with more patience than myself can tackle that one.
No, I totally get what you mean, but people get tired of being told to make nice when someone is calling them names and treating them badly. :

Everyone needs to try to bridge the gap. When my children go out and are friendly only to get slapped in the face, or I go into a place of business and get treated badly, there's no excuse for that. Now, if we were to throw out racial slurs, those people would have every right to respond in kind, but that just isn't how it is.

I understand institutional racism on the mainland, and I'm telling you there is a bit of institutional racism here. Most of the police are non-white in my area, for example, and when I was the victim of a crime I was treated as if I didn't matter. The cop kept assuming I was a tourist and it wasn't until much later it occurred to me if I had not been white he might have not been so quick to jump to that conclusion.

When we picked up a used car my dh was rear-ended on the way home with it. He had an insurance card with him but it didn't have that particular car on it, obviously. We had called our agent and had the car added, however, to our policy. The policeman who responded gave him a ticket for no insurance. We went to the courthouse with proof of insurance expecting the ticket to be dropped like it would in any other state, but they made him pay it and now our insurance went up. Dh knows non-white people at work who have had similar situations and all of them had the tickets dropped when they got to the courthouse once they showed proof of insurance. Coincidence?

At the DMV, the woman behind the desk was chatty with everyone in front of me, but when she got to me her whole demeanor changed and she snapped when I asked questions, cut me off as I was talking and was just generally unpleasant. Again, I was the only white person. Another coincidence? I know people who have had incidents on the beach where they have been threatened or assaulted by groups because of their ethnicity.

These are the kinds of things my AA friends report happening to them in areas known for white racism, and I would never doubt their word, but of course I'm imagining things because in Hawaii it's only the Native Hawaiians who have been mistreated. Nobody disputes they got a raw deal, but honestly, until you've lived here you can't imagine how nasty it is, or how much it's denied.

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#184 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 08:04 PM
 
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I disagree that POC can't be racist because anyone who hates another race is practicing racism.
This isn't true because of the power aspect. It cannot be racism without the power aspect. It's discrimination and it's still really wrong.

I'm going to try and explain my understanding of it using an analogy. I'm not sure if this is right, and I'm open to correction, but here goes.

A homosexual person has the ability to discriminate against a hetrosexual person, but would it be anything like homophobia? No. Because being hetrosexual is the norm in society and hetrosexual people hold the power. Hetrosexual people will always have the security that their relationships are respected by nearly everyone in society. A homosexual person has to deal with discrimination everywhere they go, in the law, in peoples attitudes. Even walking down the street with their partner, minding their own business, they could feel vulnerable. Something a hetrosexual person never has to face.

The same applies to Sexism, a woman cannot be sexist against a man, She can discriminte against his gender but she cannot be sexist because she does not have the power to be.

I think the discrimination aginst white people in Hawaii is terrible, and I'm so sorry that you have to experience it. But I think it is a reaction to racsim. A society that feels wounded, and will take time to heal.
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#185 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 08:27 PM
 
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This isn't true because of the power aspect. It cannot be racism without the power aspect. It's discrimination and it's still really wrong.

I'm going to try and explain my understanding of it using an analogy. I'm not sure if this is right, and I'm open to correction, but here goes.

A homosexual person has the ability to discriminate against a hetrosexual person, but would it be anything like homophobia? No. Because being hetrosexual is the norm in society and hetrosexual people hold the power. Hetrosexual people will always have the security that their relationships are respected by nearly everyone in society. A homosexual person has to deal with discrimination everywhere they go, in the law, in peoples attitudes. Even walking down the street with their partner, minding their own business, they could feel vulnerable. Something a hetrosexual person never has to face.

The same applies to Sexism, a woman cannot be sexist against a man, She can discriminte against his gender but she cannot be sexist because she does not have the power to be.

I think the discrimination aginst white people in Hawaii is terrible, and I'm so sorry that you have to experience it. But I think it is a reaction to racsim. A society that feels wounded, and will take time to heal.
I disagree with that, though. I understand there are people who say only with power can you be racist, but there are many of us who don't make that distinction. Power gives added oomph to racism, to be sure, but you can be a racist without power.

And the thing about the discrimination is, in calmer moments I can look at some groups and realize they have reasons for not trusting us, and see it's going to take a lot to bridge the gap....but for our children, it's beyond comprehension when they've been raised somewhere where everyone got along and suddenly it doesn't work.

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#186 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 08:37 PM
 
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You really can't be racist without power, by the definition of the word. The same way a man can't be a lesbian-- by definition a lesbian is a woman.

ETA the only comparison is "words that by definition can only apply to some people," I am in no way calling lesbians racist or anything!
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#187 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 08:49 PM
 
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It's more than just oomph, it brings discrimination to a whole new level, so I do think the distinction needs to be made.

That is truly awful for your children. I suppose the only thing you can do is try to teach them as best you can why people behave that way.
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#188 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 09:03 PM
 
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You really can't be racist without power, by the definition of the word. The same way a man can't be a lesbian-- by definition a lesbian is a woman.

ETA the only comparison is "words that by definition can only apply to some people," I am in no way calling lesbians racist or anything!
Years ago nobody was teaching racism as equaling power, it was just hatred and discrimination based on race. The whole power thing is something that has been taught in recent years. Changing a definition to suit your purposes does not make it the only definition, nor does it make the other definition wrong.

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#189 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 09:10 PM
 
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Years ago nobody was teaching racism as equaling power, it was just hatred and discrimination based on race. The whole power thing is something that has been taught in recent years. Changing a definition to suit your purposes does not make it the only definition, nor does it make the other definition wrong.
Years ago, no one wanted to examine racism, let alone really consider the definition.
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#190 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 09:21 PM
 
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Years ago, no one wanted to examine racism, let alone really consider the definition.
There is definitely some truth to that.

However, there are many of us who still see anyone of any race who discriminates and hates another race as a racist, period. Their social standing and level of power in the community has no bearing.

I suppose we could come up with a clunky acronym of some sort, but racist is short and to the point.

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#191 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 09:58 PM
 
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Everyone needs to try to bridge the gap. When my children go out and are friendly only to get slapped in the face, or I go into a place of business and get treated badly, there's no excuse for that. Now, if we were to throw out racial slurs, those people would have every right to respond in kind, but that just isn't how it is.
Its hard for a POC to even TRY to bridge the gap when they don't even trust that the other side will be as genuine. There are only certain people I can see bridging the gap and I WILL NOT put myself in a situation to try and bridge a gap with someone who can't even understand my struggle. No way. If I see that they will understand sure I can and I will.

I am sorry your family is going through that and I know its hurts really bad and no one is taking that pain away we are just simply saying that it is not racism because it doesn't have power behind. The power in the U.S. (since they are part of the U.S) is controlled by whites. Their land was and government were overthrown by whites.

If people "years ago" admitted that racism equalled power wouldn't they be admitting that they were doing something wrong. Admitting something like that powerful means you have to do some serious self evaluation and people were not ready for that years ago and some people still aren't ready for that definition.
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#192 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 10:00 PM
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Curious about how education is taught in Hawaii. I mentioned before here how HIStory in the US is often taught with a lack luster approach to most people of color especially blacks. This watered down rewritten knowledge is taught to children of all colors. If we want to have a chance at changing perceptions, we need to remember it starts with our children.
Does Hawaii education show white people as a negative to society? Are tv shows and the media such that young white children are provided with images that foster a sense of inferiority?
Hawaii gets the same TV shows that the rest of the country does.

As for school....I really can't answer. I spent the majority of my school years waiting for an escape, and Hawaiian history was really the only interesting history class I had. The public schools there are notoriously poor in quality; or at least, they were.

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I just wanted to point out that there ARE full blooded Native Americans.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. My mother's family is from NW Nebraska, and I live in Rhode Island. I've been around Native Americans.

What I meant was that, unless you're on a reservation or at a casino, you aren't likely to run into many full-blooded Native Americans. Same goes for Hawaiians. They seem to live "apart" from the rest of civilization, and keep to themselves. I never see any Native Americans at the supermarket or at the mall, or at museums or the zoo or anyplace else I take my family, except for the random Wampanoag Pow-Wow in the summer.
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#193 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 10:12 PM
 
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There is definitely some truth to that.

However, there are many of us who still see anyone of any race who discriminates and hates another race as a racist, period. Their social standing and level of power in the community has no bearing.

I suppose we could come up with a clunky acronym of some sort, but racist is short and to the point.
If you are looking for labels, Bigot, discriminatory, prejudice all can apply. No need for a new word.
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#194 of 417 Old 03-14-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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What I meant was that, unless you're on a reservation or at a casino, you aren't likely to run into many full-blooded Native Americans. Same goes for Hawaiians. They seem to live "apart" from the rest of civilization, and keep to themselves. I never see any Native Americans at the supermarket or at the mall, or at museums or the zoo or anyplace else I take my family, except for the random Wampanoag Pow-Wow in the summer.
I just wanted to make sure.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#195 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 12:47 AM
 
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Good, I hope somebody gets word to the brothers on the street that still get the beat down for being black driving while black...

and I know these people will be relieved to know that
Yinsum
This goes back to somewhere back here where I said that there's a difference between affirmative action and "white privilege", where the former you self-identify and in the latter- people identify you. Regardless of how you self-identify, other people will still identify you in whatever category they believe based on your physical traits (or other traits). Then they will behave according to whatever preconceptions they have.
I understand that.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why the criteria for defining race changes through time and why there isn't a universal definition of race.
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#196 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 12:49 AM
 
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Its hard for a POC to even TRY to bridge the gap when they don't even trust that the other side will be as genuine. There are only certain people I can see bridging the gap and I WILL NOT put myself in a situation to try and bridge a gap with someone who can't even understand my struggle. No way. If I see that they will understand sure I can and I will.
That I can totally understand. The suspicion and the reluctance.

Aggression, though, I don't get at all. There's a lot of it here, and more ugly misconceptions about people than I ever would have expected. There isn't a single race exempt. As mad as I get about the stuff that has happened to us, I've heard some white racists make some incredibly stupid comments as well. Because of the way all the races stick to their own many feel secure making racist comments whenever in the company of people of their own race without a second thought. I cleared a room one day when I went off on another white person about something offensive they said about the people from the Marshall Islands getting a free ride from our government. Yeah, we make their place uninhabitable with nuclear testing and many of them are living in shacks in Hawaii while their children get mistreated at school and are not getting an education, but somehow they're getting a free ride? Seriously? I think they might have done better by sending them somewhere more welcoming.

I think that's where so much of the anger comes from, everyone has misconceptions about how someone else is getting a better deal, when the reality is, nobody is getting a great deal. People do nasty things because they feel they are owed something for the wrongs of the past, and the people who feel wronged now resent the way they are treated now.


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If you are looking for labels, Bigot, discriminatory, prejudice all can apply. No need for a new word.
Yeah, I suppose those will do. Though the last time I equated bigot with racist someone jumped all over me about it, since bigot is generally applied to religious hatred instead of racial hatred.

'haters' is way to Jerry Springer for me, so I find myself falling back on racists again.

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#197 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:13 AM
 
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Yeah, I suppose those will do. Though the last time I equated bigot with racist someone jumped all over me about it, since bigot is generally applied to religious hatred instead of racial hatred.

'haters' is way to Jerry Springer for me, so I find myself falling back on racists again.
What I think many on this thread are trying to explain is that by overusing the term racist you are diminishing it's meaning. Like calling a strict teacher a Nazi.
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#198 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:32 AM
 
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I cleared a room one day when I went off on another white person about something offensive they said about the people from the Marshall Islands getting a free ride from our government. Yeah, we make their place uninhabitable with nuclear testing and many of them are living in shacks in Hawaii while their children get mistreated at school and are not getting an education, but somehow they're getting a free ride? Seriously? I think they might have done better by sending them somewhere more welcoming.
Who are you talking about? Who did the nuclear testing and who are living in shacks?
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#199 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:33 AM
 
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If anyone has the time, try to rent THE COLOR OF FEAR.

Here's a clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAbpJW_xEc
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#200 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:33 AM
 
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I've never equated bigotry solely with religion.

Bigeyes, I've been following today's discussion and there are several points that caught my attention.

In your last post, you said, "People do nasty things because they feel they are owed something for the wrongs of the past...". Despite the media bringing up stories about people seeking slave reparations, there aren't really a lot of people seeking to collect or acting out violently because they are "owed". That's actually a really common misconception among whites.

People aren't doing "nasty things" because they feel someone owes them something; people are reacting with mistrust and anger and frustration because, quite frankly, too many people have little reason to expect anything better. And because the "wrongs of the past" have followed us to the present and they've felt it directly. Most of it isn't out of revenge, but more self-preservation and self-defense and fatigue and, yes, anger.

I also think that you might have distorted vision of the mainland because of what you were exposed to in CA.

As others have said, what you described in Hawaii as far as "segregation" is fairly normal in much of the US. It doesn't sound like the US 50 years ago; it sounds like now.
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Bigeyesr, I've been following today's discussion and there are several points that caught my attention.

In your last post, you said, "People do nasty things because they feel they are owed something for the wrongs of the past...". Despite the media bringing up stories about people seeking slave reparations, there aren't really a lot of people seeking to collect or acting out violently because they are "owed". That's actually a really common misconception among whites.

People aren't doing "nasty things" because they feel someone owes them something; people are reacting with mistrust and anger and frustration because, quite frankly, too many people have little reason to expect anything better. And because the "wrongs of the past" have followed us to the present and they've felt it directly. Most of it isn't out of revenge, but more self-preservation and self-defense and fatigue and, yes, anger.

I also think that you might have distorted vision of the mainland because of what you were exposed to in CA.

As others have said, what you described in Hawaii as far as "segregation" is fairly normal in much of the US. It doesn't sound like the US 50 years ago; it sounds like now.
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You beat me to it!
I'm still trying to formulate some thoughts about the very same points.
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#202 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:51 AM
 
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If anyone has the time, try to rent THE COLOR OF FEAR.

Here's a clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAbpJW_xEc
::ba wl
That is all the emotion I felt from watching that small clip. Man that guy spoke the truth!!

Netflix doesn't have it so where can I go about getting this since my blockbuster sucks??
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#203 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 02:06 AM
 
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I've never equated bigotry solely with religion.

Bigeyes, I've been following today's discussion and there are several points that caught my attention.

In your last post, you said, "People do nasty things because they feel they are owed something for the wrongs of the past...". Despite the media bringing up stories about people seeking slave reparations, there aren't really a lot of people seeking to collect or acting out violently because they are "owed". That's actually a really common misconception among whites.

People aren't doing "nasty things" because they feel someone owes them something; people are reacting with mistrust and anger and frustration because, quite frankly, too many people have little reason to expect anything better. And because the "wrongs of the past" have followed us to the present and they've felt it directly. Most of it isn't out of revenge, but more self-preservation and self-defense and fatigue and, yes, anger.

I also think that you might have distorted vision of the mainland because of what you were exposed to in CA.


As others have said, what you described in Hawaii as far as "segregation" is fairly normal in much of the US. It doesn't sound like the US 50 years ago; it sounds like now.
Could be. Maybe CA spoiled me, and that's why the stuff in HI hits me so hard.

It's just all so sad, yk?

There has been so much progress, and yet so little. And you're probably right, I could go to many states and get preferential treatment just because I'm white. I remember driving through the South in the 90s and only seeing POC pulled over on the highway for 3 days straight.

I never did less than 70 mph the whole trip.

In a red convertible.

Much like my experiences in Hawaii, I don't think it was a coincidence I didn't get pulled over in the South but African Americans and Mexican Americans did. I can see where the anger comes from.

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#204 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 02:07 AM
 
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Yes! The whole documentary is very emotional!

I think it is considered an educational documentary, so it is mostly available at university libraries. But, I'm pretty sure you can go to your public library and request it through interlibrary loan.

Check out Worldcat...it will tell you which libraries have it nationwide.

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/3095243...=brief_results

Just put in your zipcode.
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#205 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 02:12 AM
 
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THANKS Freud!! On their website it is $110 dollars for 1 dvd. Yikes!!!

I just ordered it through my school, thanks again
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#206 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 10:34 AM
 
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If anyone has the time, try to rent THE COLOR OF FEAR.

Here's a clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vAbpJW_xEc
Thanks Freud. I need to see the entire documentary ; the clip was very powerful.

afro.jpg
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#207 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 10:46 AM
 
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Who are you talking about? Who did the nuclear testing and who are living in shacks?
The Marshall Islands are the site of the US's bigest nuclear test. The people there are still having negative physical and environmental effects.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#208 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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The Marshall Islands are the site of the US's bigest nuclear test. The people there are still having negative physical and environmental effects.
Ok thank you I was pretty confused.

Bigeyes ofcourse all races can have misconceptions no one said that but POC can't be racist. It is like you are saying since people may have predjudice or something that they are racist but I don't think you can just throw that word around until you have been on the other side of the color line. I don't expect you to know what it is like but I expect you to at least empathize a little bit. I don't see anyone on hear being aggressive at all, I think we are all patient and this isn't a big heated discussion (at least not now).

If the government (controlled by whites) did all this stuff you mentioned bigeyes then it is understandable that they have this "misconception" or predjudice for white people. I mean they ruined people's lives. You should really watch that clip because what he said about white people taking over everyones land is so true. They are definitely reacting to racism.
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#209 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 02:20 PM
 
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Yinsum
What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why the criteria for defining race changes through time and why there isn't a universal definition of race.
Oh, I know this one! Simple linguistic evolution. Lots of words used to mean one thing and changed meaning over time. And many, MANY words have different meanings in different English-speaking countries. The standard joke about a British person going to a store in the US and asking for a "fag" (cigarette). That kind of thing. Race is a cultural construct anyway, so it's to be expected that its definition will change from culture to culture, and over time with changes in culture. My great-grandfather's Ellis Island paperwork says "Race: Hebrew." He was a white Jew, from the Ukraine. That would look silly today. At one point (the 80s, I think), in the UK, "Asian" meant strictly "South Asian" and a friend of mine there told me that her Chinese friend was instructed to call herself "black" rather than "Asian" on forms, because she was not South Asian.
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#210 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 02:49 PM
 
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I have not read the whole thread yet (kind of long) but I couldnt help but notice the title. "Reverse racism", hmmm.... I would tend to think that the very concept that there is such a thing as "reverse" racism is racist in and of itself. It acknowledged that "races" exist and defines them the same way as any "regular" racist would.

Now, just to be clear, I am not saying that the OP or anyone else here is racist or believes certain things about race, I am saying that the expression "reverse racism" is, to me, racist or, at the very least, upholds the binary.

Single mom to E (2004) and D (2010)
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