Reverse racism - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#241 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 09:59 PM
 
Yinsum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Big Blue Marble
Posts: 3,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dang what was Obama thinking Women's Commission cause addressing the issues that women face don't make the situation any better for them. Girls just pull up your bra straps and ...
Yinsum is offline  
#242 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 10:00 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
transending them then would mean that you accept the differences and don't use them against people. Its not right to say there are no differences so you can't see them, That is living in a fantasy land BUT its easy for you because you don't have to see color. Your daughter sure will though
futurmama8 is offline  
#243 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 11:20 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
What I am saying is very simple. Othering leads to prejudice leads to discrimination. Identifying as part of a "race" assumes agreement with the concept.
This is how we talked about race when I was a child - when it was considered a compliment to tell as black person that hey, we're just such good friends that I don't even notice that you're black!
Quote:
Accusing me of talking from a place of privilege is so ridiculous. I guess everyone should just realize that racism is here to stay and try to be the "race" on top then. I just assume people want a long term solution even if it involve being uncomfortable for a while.
As a white person, I've found it uncomfortable to accept that I enjoy a whole lot of privileges in my life that I've down nothing to earn - they're given to me because I'm white. That doesn't feel good, and it would be much easier for me not to really think about it. I think I do my part to fight against racism when I acknowledge the ways I benefit from it, and try to be aware of the ways systemic racism is affecting all of us.
Quote:
I am fully aware of the everyday reality of a society that recognizes race as real just as I am fully aware of the everyday reality of living in a society that sees men and women as fundamentally different. Does that mean I will find some man to marry and follow what society says or that it would be better if I just tried to be "better" or "stronger" than men? NO, that would be ridiculous. The same principle applies to race.
This isn't about one race being better or stronger than another - it's about different races existing. Biology is not the only way something can exist - would you deny the existence of religion, for example? I wouldn't try to combat sexism by denying the existence of gender...

Quote:
I will not teach my child to be prud of being a girl if I want her to transcend gender and I will not teach her to be proud or to identify as black if I want her to transcend race. It's a simple concept.
I don't think it's a matter of being "proud" - I'm not proud because I have white skin, or because I'm a woman, or because I have wavy hair and detached earlobes... but I don't pretend that those things don't exist, either.

Dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#244 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 11:21 PM
 
Yinsum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Big Blue Marble
Posts: 3,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dang PETA might be after us soon for beating this horse. But let's say people of color stop celebrating their ethnicity what to the merge into? The dominant culture? Assimilate? Because what exists in the dominant culture is the norm and what does the dominant culture have to lose? What do they have to examine or address if people just politely and civilly merge in.
Yinsum is offline  
#245 of 417 Old 03-15-2009, 11:58 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinsum View Post
Dang PETA might be after us soon for beating this horse. But let's say people of color stop celebrating their ethnicity what to the merge into? The dominant culture? Assimilate? Because what exists in the dominant culture is the norm and what does the dominant culture have to lose? What do they have to examine or address if people just politely and civilly merge in.
You're right..
You know what its always POC assimilating and letting go of their culture to be normal and "the same"..

Soso-lynn it seems like you are saying, "let go of your culture and just be like us so then we will all be the same and their will be no differences." Thats just how I am taking it. Is it so hard to accept that your daughter will be different from you even though you may "teach" her that she is the same? No matter how hard you try she will be different just like no matter how hard POC to look or be the same they will be different and that is why we try so hard to hold on to each of our own cultures.
futurmama8 is offline  
#246 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:00 AM
 
LoMaH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dar
You have detached earlobes? Hey, so do I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post
As a white person, I've found it uncomfortable to accept that I enjoy a whole lot of privileges in my life that I've down nothing to earn - they're given to me because I'm white. That doesn't feel good, and it would be much easier for me not to really think about it. I think I do my part to fight against racism when I acknowledge the ways I benefit from it, and try to be aware of the ways systemic racism is affecting all of us.
Thanks for contributing this.
I have a question, if you don't mind my asking.
When you say that "it doesn't feel good", do you mean -guilt-? Do you think you're to blame for receiving privileges?
I ask because you follow that statement with stating that it would be easier for you not to think about it. I'm not understanding why you would feel this and I hope that you can elaborate a bit.
LoMaH is offline  
#247 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:04 AM
 
Missy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: virginia
Posts: 4,932
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
You're right..
You know what its always POC assimilating and letting go of their culture to be normal and "the same"..

Soso-lynn it seems like you are saying, "let go of your culture and just be like us so then we will all be the same and their will be no differences." Thats just how I am taking it. Is it so hard to accept that your daughter will be different from you even though you may "teach" her that she is the same? No matter how hard you try she will be different just like no matter how hard POC to look or be the same they will be different and that is why we try so hard to hold on to each of our own cultures.
The more things change...

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps...s/mountain.htm
Missy is offline  
#248 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:21 AM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
Dar
Thanks for contributing this.
I have a question, if you don't mind my asking.
When you say that "it doesn't feel good", do you mean -guilt-? Do you think you're to blame for receiving privileges?
I ask because you follow that statement with stating that it would be easier for you not to think about it. I'm not understanding why you would feel this and I hope that you can elaborate a bit.
I don't think it's guilt, exactly... it's just that it would be easier for me to look at the things that I have - nice place to live, great educational opportunities, job that I love - and believe that I have all of these things simply because I earned them, and I worked for them... and that people who don't have these things must not have worked as hard. It would be easier for me, as a white person, to believe that things are fair. Instead, I think the truth is that there are plenty of people who have worked as hard as I have, or harder - who are as smart and talented as I am - and who don't have what I have, because of the direct and indirect effects of racism. That's kind of humbling, and uncomfortable, for me anyway.

I do work hard, and I am smart, and talented... but so are many other people.

Dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#249 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:39 AM
 
davi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 4,492
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
I think that, on the contrary, asserting that race is real is empowering racism and perpetuating the power structure of society that lead to the notion in the first place. I find it offensive to say that, despite the fact that we all know and understand not only the biological reality but also the process that lead to the concept of race, race is still real.

It is the same logic that makes it so that feminisms will never be able to address things as deeply as queer and gender theories can.

Anyhow, not trying to start anything, I am not done reading yet.
Not trying to start anything? Hmmm....I think that by acknowledging racism, my child is better prepared to deal with the reality of that social construct that awaits her when she's all on her own in the big world. Just like I want her to be thankful to her foremothers of feminism who literally fought with their lives as well to give us the opportunities we have now & it seems some take for granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinsum View Post
Well Jamn it! White people in the lower 48 can or may have opportunity to experience racial bigotry. But Racism? Hellls Bells no...I really don't think they are experiencing what people of color have been dealing with throughout many generations. To equate it on the same level belittles it.

I have had the pleasure of hearing this brother speak: Tim Wise. Yeah he's white, yeah I'm black and yeah I called him brother. Take a moment if you dare and read this. Allow him to drop a little WIS(E)dom.
Thanks for posting that Yin, it was good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
Ok fine then, just go around telling everyone there is a HUGE difference between black and white, that it is genetic, essential and undeniable. Teach your children that it is us versus them. Tell them to be proud of being black and to identify with other black people.

But then do not be complaining when the white families tell the same to their kids.

Seriously it is quite simple in the bigger picture. Everytime a black person defends the white, racist idea that bkack and white are different (even if they insist that it does not mean better or worse), they are reaffirming the old colonial ideas that lead to this mess in the first place.

Race is an invention of racism, not the other way around.

On the other hand, culture, community and shared history are real things that should matter and be part of someone's identity.
There IS a huge difference in being black than being white in America. My MIL remembers segregation, it is a VERY real piece of our not-so-distant history, not some quaint colonialism. Damn straight my kids are being raised to understand what is against them as females, as biracial & I think I would be remiss to not prepare them. I want my daughter to look in the mirror & see her color & her differences & be proud of who she is not sad because of what she isn't. When your child is older & she comes to you sad because her hair is "bad" & she wants it straight, or she's being teased cuz she's "too dark" how exactly would you respond if it wasn't a conversation you had been having before? If you hadn't been teaching her to be proud of her beauty & taught her the lessons of her history that inspire her to feel the pride in her history that is filled with so much pain? Cuz honestly, we had those conversations once my oldest started kindy & she was first teased for having natural hair & "being too dark to be a mixed kid".

Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
You're right..
You know what its always POC assimilating and letting go of their culture to be normal and "the same"..

Soso-lynn it seems like you are saying, "let go of your culture and just be like us so then we will all be the same and their will be no differences." Thats just how I am taking it. Is it so hard to accept that your daughter will be different from you even though you may "teach" her that she is the same? No matter how hard you try she will be different just like no matter how hard POC to look or be the same they will be different and that is why we try so hard to hold on to each of our own cultures.
Thank you!
davi is offline  
#250 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:43 AM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
Can we be friends :

No but seriously you have some GREAT resources. Actually everybody has great resources on here including yinsum and freud. I think these would be great in the racism board now especially if they change. :
futurmama8 is offline  
#251 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 01:00 AM
 
lolar2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

This isn't about one race being better or stronger than another - it's about different races existing. Biology is not the only way something can exist - would you deny the existence of religion, for example? I wouldn't try to combat sexism by denying the existence of gender...

I'm highlighting that because one of my classmates has been having trouble with that concept, and it's a great way of putting it. Mind if I steal it?
lolar2 is offline  
#252 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 12:49 PM
 
ernalala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: takatukaland
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
That's a rather disingenuous question. It's a sort of strawman to the real concern about some of the things expressed on this thread.

So much of what you've described as reverse racism isn't racism at all, but more a reaction to racism.

And yet, you laugh about your husband thinking everyone in your family looks alike. That's strange to me. Like MustBeJelly just said, it means he's not looking at closely enough, he's not seeing individuals. For me, that would be a problem.
I do not think that this is a real problem, unless he continues 'not being able to' recognise the individuals in the partner's (extended) family after multiple meetings with them.

All of my ILs live far away from us. We are married for almost 9 years. We only see most of dh's (extended) family once every 1 or 2 years during a max 10 day stay. Many marriages are/have been first cousin marriages, and many are married to close or more distant relatives. Which means that there is much likeness among relatives, more than in most widely extended families. It has been extremely hard for me to rember faces due to this 'trait', and due to the extreme largeness and complicatedness of my Dh's family, large nuclear families, because we hardly see them at all, and because I mostly get to see women and children, but hardly can make the connections because I havn't seen some of the male family members nor always have seen the 'nuclear family compositions', or at least not having had much occasion to figure out whom is related to whom, in which way etc. Oh yeah, what adds to it is that women are scarved so that leaves for me out the possibility to recognise someone by hair colour/structure/style too :-).
Like this, it took me about 6 years to more or less get the larger picture and more and more start to be able recognise the individual traits of each person, to actually get to know individuals, relationships, and most of all, remember names (and apply those to the right persons!). And really, I am generally pretty god at faces.
Of course, they ALL 'knew' me as my dh's 'foreign wife' at first sight and would definitely recognise me again, be,ng totally out of my family's/background's context - lol.

Maybe Vanessa's wording of this experience has come to wrong interpretation, but I am pretty sure that it is only part of the experience of finding that most ppl 'in that town' or 'in that family' 'look alike', and that more of the factors as I experienced may be involved?

Me:,loving HB,two active sons of 3 & 5,1 cat, nature lover,,extbf,occ,SAHM, multicultural/lingual family,+/-cl, :become a better parent/person by not expecting to be the perfect parent/person
ernalala is offline  
#253 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 01:53 PM
 
Danelle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere on Earth, for now
Posts: 4,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
Oh, I know this one! Simple linguistic evolution. Lots of words used to mean one thing and changed meaning over time. And many, MANY words have different meanings in different English-speaking countries. The standard joke about a British person going to a store in the US and asking for a "fag" (cigarette). That kind of thing. Race is a cultural construct anyway, so it's to be expected that its definition will change from culture to culture, and over time with changes in culture. My great-grandfather's Ellis Island paperwork says "Race: Hebrew." He was a white Jew, from the Ukraine. That would look silly today. At one point (the 80s, I think), in the UK, "Asian" meant strictly "South Asian" and a friend of mine there told me that her Chinese friend was instructed to call herself "black" rather than "Asian" on forms, because she was not South Asian.
Was race originally a European social construction used to assert power over the colonies in India, Africa, etc.???
Danelle78 is offline  
#254 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Danelle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere on Earth, for now
Posts: 4,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
And

A Girl Like Me

07:08 min
Youth Documentary
Director: Kiri Davis
Producer: Reel Works Teen Filmmaking

http://www.mediathatmattersfest.org/..._girl_like_me/
Danelle78 is offline  
#255 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 03:01 PM
Banned
 
MustBeJelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Social construct or not, the fact is that race plays a pretty big part in basically all cultures. It has a measurable impact on how human beings relate to one another.
Sure, it's easy to say, when you're part of the dominant paradigm, 'just pretend it doesn't exist! that's the way to stick it to the man!' but it's harder to put that into practice, when you get pulled over because you're in a nice car in the wrong neighborhood too late at night, or when the lady in the elevator grips her purse a little bit tighter and steps further into the corner when you get on.

One thing that I'm always exhausted by, is when white people try to tell us how to deal with racism. I'm appreciative of the work that white anti-racism activists do, but I think it needs to be a case of 'weed your own backyard first, before you hoe mine'. In other words, check the racism in your own communities, before you decide to start dictating how black folks need to 'fix' the issue.
MustBeJelly is offline  
#256 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 05:03 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danelle78 View Post
Was race originally a European social construction used to assert power over the colonies in India, Africa, etc.???
Definitely!! The Europeans found a way to gain something much more powerful than physical control. They mentally controlled people and that will break a person spirit. They went around and told people that since they were dark they were less of a person, they were ugly and needed to be controlled. Some of these people fought back and won (example is Ethiopia, the virgin dynasty, because they were never colonised). Some people lost and had their land taken from them, became poor and considered a less than citizen by these people who overtook them. That destroys people and makes them then feel like maybe I am less than because of my color and then a cycle of internalized self hate begins and continues with each generation. These people then begin to feel resentful, "it is not my fault I was born this color", "being darker is something I can't control", "why can't they see me for who I am instead of what I look like". Then the anger sets in and then that is when POC are seen as radical and dangerous. Then there is acceptance of what the white world sees of you and then you realize you ARE beautiful and don't care what they think but it takes time to get to this level. So it is like a cycle and a learning process. When I hear people say but slavery was hundreds of years ago I get very angry because they don't realize that certain mentalities such as internalized self hate are passed down over and over again without people even trying. To this day there is a such thing as a slave mentality and I have seen in some of the people I am around.

I have a friend from Ghana and his anscetors are the Ashanti people and he told me his grandfather told him a story of the first his people saw white peopl. He says they thought they look weird, funny, different and ugly BUT they never saw themselves as better then them or superior, they always welcomed them. This is a big difference with Europeans and POC of that time of colonization.
futurmama8 is offline  
#257 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 09:01 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I killed the thread :
futurmama8 is offline  
#258 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 09:17 PM
 
purplegirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: down by the river.....
Posts: 5,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
I killed the thread :

No you didn't. Sometimes it takes a moment to digest it all. Keep edifying mama!

afro.jpg
purplegirl is offline  
#259 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 09:37 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok I definitely will, Thanks!!
futurmama8 is offline  
#260 of 417 Old 03-16-2009, 11:54 PM
 
theretohere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,676
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
I killed the thread :
I'm surprised the thread made it so long without freezing- gives me some hope for MDC.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
we're : with and : and
theretohere is offline  
#261 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 06:14 AM
 
ernalala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: takatukaland
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=VanessaS;13305042]Yes, that's reverse-racism (people being prejudice against white people).[QUOTE]

No it isn't. It's racism, tout court.

There exists racism between so many communities/ethinicities/skincolours why would you call it 'reverse'?

Oh and I'm not speaking for US context, see my next post.

Me:,loving HB,two active sons of 3 & 5,1 cat, nature lover,,extbf,occ,SAHM, multicultural/lingual family,+/-cl, :become a better parent/person by not expecting to be the perfect parent/person
ernalala is offline  
#262 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 07:11 AM
 
Missy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: virginia
Posts: 4,932
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernalala View Post
No it isn't. It's racism, tout court.
No. As we've already discussed, that's prejudice.
Missy is offline  
#263 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 07:21 AM
 
ernalala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: takatukaland
Posts: 690
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=Susuwatari;13347199]This is a really interesting discussion. I am not American and I had never heard this point of view before. Where I come from, in Europe, racism is generally believed to mean discrimination based on race. [QUOTE]

Exactly. The definition can even be expanded to discrimination based on origin, which could mean race, ethnic group, nationality, religious group, immigrants in general etc. Most of it is defined as 'racism'. To be called racism, the discrimination does not nescessarily have to exist within the system, the term can actually be applied to someone's words or actions.

What you define as racism in US context seems to have a whole different perspective to me, too.

I live in a country where I am a foreigner and a minority, on 'racial' grounds, we are the 'same', but in reality, in looks, are different. Well, in fact this country consists of a whole lot of different ethnicities I may look like local to some, but not at all to others. Ethnicities have been and are experiencing racism, by the system, by ppl. I (a white European married to local) am experiencing aspects of racism within the system because I am not entitled to similar rights as the local population, while a person in the same (lol-reverse) situation as mine (married to local and living there) has these same legal rights in my own coi. I have also had occasional prejudice situations regarding myself, and according to the European definition of racism I can easily call these racist experiences (also, since these are not a 'reaction to racism' as it's been called here).

Just to point out that the racism discussion is not something that is only 'unique' to US society, unfortunately so. You really have a society there where racism is a truly inbuilt concept and there is a lot of work to have that ever undone. But the concept of racism has many forms and definitions, all over the world. Just a reminder.

Me:,loving HB,two active sons of 3 & 5,1 cat, nature lover,,extbf,occ,SAHM, multicultural/lingual family,+/-cl, :become a better parent/person by not expecting to be the perfect parent/person
ernalala is offline  
#264 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 08:58 AM
 
Brisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danelle78 View Post
Was race originally a European social construction used to assert power over the colonies in India, Africa, etc.???

Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
Definitely!!
I disagree. People all over the globe, throughout history, have been focusing on differences -- physical differences, or differences in language or clothing or whatever -- to differentiate between "us" and "them," sometimes even going so far as considering everyone in the "them" category as not human. They have used these differences to rationalize slavery, invasion, war, genocide. Europeans didn't invent it; sadly, they had the technology to be very, very good at it. But they weren't the first.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

***4***8****13***17***21****26***heartbeat.gif****35****40

Brisen is offline  
#265 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 10:56 AM
 
Chamomile Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: West of the Sierras East of the Sea
Posts: 2,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen View Post
I disagree. People all over the globe, throughout history, have been focusing on differences -- physical differences, or differences in language or clothing or whatever -- to differentiate between "us" and "them," sometimes even going so far as considering everyone in the "them" category as not human. They have used these differences to rationalize slavery, invasion, war, genocide. Europeans didn't invent it; sadly, they had the technology to be very, very good at it. But they weren't the first.
Sadly true. The oldest "textbook case" racist system is India. Their caste system is based in skin color, and may date from the Aryan invasions of the late Bronze Age (this is a hotly debated topic in India for a number of reasons). Nonetheless the caste system has always relied on skin color as one marker of privilege...the lighter the skin the higher the caste (generally). There is quite a lot of racism among Indians for this reason from what I understand...long, long before any Europeans showed up.

However, the Europeans (and later the Americans) took it to a whole new level!
Chamomile Girl is offline  
#266 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Danelle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere on Earth, for now
Posts: 4,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think I was thinking of Blumenbach's racial classifications.

Futurmama8 - Thank you for sharing.
Danelle78 is offline  
#267 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 12:08 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
Definitely!! The Europeans found a way to gain something much more powerful than physical control. They mentally controlled people and that will break a person spirit. They went around and told people that since they were dark they were less of a person, they were ugly and needed to be controlled. Some of these people fought back and won (example is Ethiopia, the virgin dynasty, because they were never colonised). Some people lost and had their land taken from them, became poor and considered a less than citizen by these people who overtook them. That destroys people and makes them then feel like maybe I am less than because of my color and then a cycle of internalized self hate begins and continues with each generation. These people then begin to feel resentful, "it is not my fault I was born this color", "being darker is something I can't control", "why can't they see me for who I am instead of what I look like". Then the anger sets in and then that is when POC are seen as radical and dangerous. Then there is acceptance of what the white world sees of you and then you realize you ARE beautiful and don't care what they think but it takes time to get to this level. So it is like a cycle and a learning process. When I hear people say but slavery was hundreds of years ago I get very angry because they don't realize that certain mentalities such as internalized self hate are passed down over and over again without people even trying. To this day there is a such thing as a slave mentality and I have seen in some of the people I am around.

I am quoting this because I don't want it to get lost. Now when white people experience this then maybe they can be reacting to racism but I don't know any white countries where this has happened unless someone can enlighten me.

Thanks Brisen and chamomile girl I did not know of that system. I learned something new today
futurmama8 is offline  
#268 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 02:05 PM
 
LoMaH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernalala View Post
What you define as racism in US context seems to have a whole different perspective to me, too.

I live in a country where I am a foreigner and a minority, on 'racial' grounds, we are the 'same', but in reality, in looks, are different. Well, in fact this country consists of a whole lot of different ethnicities I may look like local to some, but not at all to others. Ethnicities have been and are experiencing racism, by the system, by ppl. I (a white European married to local) am experiencing aspects of racism within the system because I am not entitled to similar rights as the local population, while a person in the same (lol-reverse) situation as mine (married to local and living there) has these same legal rights in my own coi. I have also had occasional prejudice situations regarding myself, and according to the European definition of racism I can easily call these racist experiences (also, since these are not a 'reaction to racism' as it's been called here).
Yeah, racism and prejudices have always existed.
What's being discussed in this thread is the difference between being prejudice and actually having the power to affect the group on a deeper level.

I'm not quite clear on the reasons you're being denied rights.?? Are you a citizen there?

"Reaction to racism" is what's being applied to a situation where, for instance in your case, the people there discriminate against you- so you lash out back at them.

This thread has taken quite a bit of turns and is quite lengthy..... but from what I recall (or perhaps I'm wrong)- the OP was stating that her mother was practicing "reverse racism." But, her mother is German (white) and she has prejudices against other white people or things that pertain to whites, so I don't think the term was used properly- at least not as it's typically used (whether people agree on the term or not). Reverse racism is usually used when the minority group discriminates against the majority group.
Because the word racism is defined in a specific way in sociology, the discussion turned into whether a minority group (or member) is being racist when they don't have the power to systemically implement that racism.

When we (in the U.S.) hear on the news about crimes committed against a person based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc (and of course, these crimes exist)... they call it a "hate" or "bias" crime. But honestly, they don't use the word racism, even when race was involved. I'm not sure though if the word is used when the case hits the courts. ??


ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen
I disagree. People all over the globe, throughout history, have been focusing on differences -- physical differences, or differences in language or clothing or whatever -- to differentiate between "us" and "them," sometimes even going so far as considering everyone in the "them" category as not human. They have used these differences to rationalize slavery, invasion, war, genocide. Europeans didn't invent it; sadly, they had the technology to be very, very good at it. But they weren't the first.
Again, yes discrimination/racism has always existed.
Many cultures have terms that express this "us" "them"- ex. Jews/Gentiles, or another example is the Greeks who use words (which I don't know, but know of) one word for -Greeks- and another word for -not Greek- which I was told by a friend is the word for barbarian. So, yes, people always have the us/them mentality.
(Oh, to clarify- I'm not saying the Jews or Greeks are racists. I was pointing the differentiating between us and them- that has always existed. It's not always bad to identify with a group.)
LoMaH is offline  
#269 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 02:57 PM
 
LoMaH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post
I don't think it's guilt, exactly... it's just that it would be easier for me to look at the things that I have - nice place to live, great educational opportunities, job that I love - and believe that I have all of these things simply because I earned them, and I worked for them... and that people who don't have these things must not have worked as hard. It would be easier for me, as a white person, to believe that things are fair. Instead, I think the truth is that there are plenty of people who have worked as hard as I have, or harder - who are as smart and talented as I am - and who don't have what I have, because of the direct and indirect effects of racism. That's kind of humbling, and uncomfortable, for me anyway.

I do work hard, and I am smart, and talented... but so are many other people.

Dar
Thanks for responding.
I was curious because, in my mind, I suspect that the reason many people don't want to address racism is primarily because it doesn't directly affect them in any way- so there's indifference.
There have been a few times where people have expressed a desire to not face it because of some unexplained negative feelings that I don't quite understand, and that's why I asked.
I mean, I'm a POC whose also had many privileges. TBH, I also feel bad at times, but not in a way that makes me want to avoid the discussion. I don't feel guilt, I feel fortunate and lucky. And I hope that I could use my privilege in a way that helps foster those same opportunities to others who haven't been granted them.
Anyway..... again, thanks.
LoMaH is offline  
#270 of 417 Old 03-17-2009, 03:23 PM
 
futurmama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: where slaves reached freedom
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
Thanks for responding.
I was curious because, in my mind, I suspect that the reason many people don't want to address racism is primarily because it doesn't directly affect them in any way- so there's indifference.
There have been a few times where people have expressed a desire to not face it because of some unexplained negative feelings that I don't quite understand, and that's why I asked.
I mean, I'm a POC whose also had many privileges. TBH, I also feel bad at times, but not in a way that makes me want to avoid the discussion. I don't feel guilt, I feel fortunate and lucky. And I hope that I could use my privilege in a way that helps foster those same opportunities to others who haven't been granted them.
Anyway..... again, thanks.
I like how you put that. I think that people need to stop leaving discussions (this one for example) because they become uncomfortable and don't like the way the discussion is going. In the beginning I saw that you asked for more info to help you understand and I greatly respect that.
futurmama8 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off