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Regrets

17K views 316 replies 34 participants last post by  peaceful_mama 
#1 ·
I have posted before about some of my unschooling regrets, and since we are in the throes of another setback in my son's life, I thought I'd share so others can learn from our experiences.

I have come to the conclusion that I either did not unschool properly, or it is just not true that all kids will learn what they need to learn when they see the need, because ds just cannot seem to get past the remedial math he needs to get to the certain class he needs for college credit. He is 19 years old and desperately wants to transfer to a 4-year college as nearly all of his more traditionally homeschooled and ps friends have already done.

When he did not want to do any traditional math, I respected that wish. When he wanted to immerse himself in gaming I allowed and supported that (and told myself it was what he needed at the time), when he did not want to write papers for his homeschool co-op classes, fine. He would do it when he was ready. When he said he wanted to begin remedial math classes at the cc without having done much at all in our unschool/homeschool environment, that's what we did. When he started to have troubles with math, we got him a tutor. He tells me that the difference between him and other students at the CC is that he never learned how to study, how to manage homework, how to take tests, even though I tried to expose him to these things through various homeschool classes.

I have come to believe that unschooling is great for young kids who still need ample time for free play, it also can be great fro older kids and teens who are highly motivated and passionate learners. It may also be fine in families who really are truly OK with their kids taking all the time they need to get to where they want to go, even if it takes them well into their late teens and twenties being all-night gamers in their basements. We do not have the means to support that route indefinitely.

There are no blanket truths in unschooling, it really depends on the kid and the parent needs to be savvy enough to recognize when continuing on this path is not in their best long term interests. I tried to believe that it was OK for ds to fall well behind his friends because he was not ready, he was learning in his own unique way, I was respecting his right to do that, or who could say where his passion for gaming would lead? I really did *not* believe it, and maybe some would say that is the problem, but I think it has more to do with him making the calls in areas where it really was my place to do it as the parent.

End Rant
 
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#127 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piglet68 View Post

My kids are extremely sensitive to any suggestion that I have an agenda for their learning. Giving a math example: my 7 year old regularly, but not frequently, will out of the blue announce some number relationship he has apparently been thinking about. It started a couple years ago when he would suddenly say something like "hey mama, there are 11 DVDs [in this series] and we have 8 so that means we still need to get 3 more!". This past summer as we were leaving a fairground he announced that 4 + 4 twice is 16 and then asked me if he did it "twice again" would that make 32? God only knows how he knew that or what thought process led to it, but he does seem to have a gift for understanding numbers. The only time I see him use math of any sort is adding up coins or points in a video game!

So one day I decided to sit down and show him a worksheet I'd created years ago for DD that explained multiplication using pictures of images drawn in shapes (3 circles, 3 cats in each circle) that are then translated to equations. He grasped the concept immediately, but after the second example was done he freaked out, told me this was all "stupid" and refused to do anymore. So its not that it's too hard for him, or that he isn't interested in number relationships, he's just not interested in doing it on my agenda or for reasons that aren't intrinsically motivated.
I'm thinking this same example could be interpreted in a very different ways. Perhaps he's lacks the experience to have developed the skills to handle his feelings when he tries something new or doesn't immediately know how to do something. Perhaps shutting down isn't proof of his intrinsic motivation but instead of a lack of coping skills. Maybe he hasn't learned to be empathetic enough to understanding mom is interested in helping him. Maybe regular math would have a reaction nothing like the response to mom's self created math worksheet presented due to fears of standardized testing.

Folks can disagree with me but a kid calling new ideas "stupid" and being totally shut down doesn't really say to me that unschooling is producing a desirable result. Let's just say for a minute he believed the ONLY value in this was that it was important to you and you rarely ask such things of him. Is it appropriate that the main reaction if something is important to mom is to call it stupid and refuse to participate? I'm not seeing how this scenario reflects something positive about the unschooling process or about a child's self determination to be intrinsically motivated.
 
#128 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

I

Folks can disagree with me but a kid calling new ideas "stupid" and being totally shut down doesn't really say to me that unschooling is producing a desirable result. Let's just say for a minute he believed the ONLY value in this was that it was important to you and you rarely ask such things of him. Is it appropriate that the main reaction if something is important to mom is to call it stupid and refuse to participate? I'm not seeing how this scenario reflects something positive about the unschooling process or about a child's self determination to be intrinsically motivated.
I don't disagree with you, Roar! Having a nearly adult kid who never had to do math now saying he hates it tells me that it not having to do it did *nothing* to make it more palatable now.

My younger kids, who are now required to do math among other things, don't necessarily like it, but they know they importance of putting in some effort now to spare them difficulties later on. This is not causing any issues in our relationship, in fact the time we now spend together doing some "homeschooling" has turned out to be quite valuable time for all of us. Lot more valuable than my spending time online trying to convince myself that I was doing the right thing by letting them sit in the basement all day gaming. My 8 yo dd who is working on math at the same grade level she'd be in school (the boys are behind as they were unschooled longer) just calculated with delight how many ice cream sandwiches each kid will get from the package we just bought. This despite the fact that she is required to do math each day. She also just told me she likes the idea of having to do schoolwork each day, it keeps her from getting bored.

Don't get me wrong, there is still very ample free time around here and still plenty of gaming. I just don't think in terms of unschooling as something we began so I would never have to bust heavies on my kids, I hoped for something that would result in a superior education because that elusive intrinsic motivation would be cultivated. The way we did things may have brought about many good things, but a superior education is not one of them.
 
#129 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

I'm thinking this same example could be interpreted in a very different ways. Perhaps he's lacks the experience to have developed the skills to handle his feelings when he tries something new or doesn't immediately know how to do something. Perhaps shutting down isn't proof of his intrinsic motivation but instead of a lack of coping skills. Maybe he hasn't learned to be empathetic enough to understanding mom is interested in helping him. Maybe regular math would have a reaction nothing like the response to mom's self created math worksheet presented due to fears of standardized testing.

Folks can disagree with me but a kid calling new ideas "stupid" and being totally shut down doesn't really say to me that unschooling is producing a desirable result. Let's just say for a minute he believed the ONLY value in this was that it was important to you and you rarely ask such things of him. Is it appropriate that the main reaction if something is important to mom is to call it stupid and refuse to participate? I'm not seeing how this scenario reflects something positive about the unschooling process or about a child's self determination to be intrinsically motivated.
Bolding mine. This is a long thread - did someone say this?

Lots of kids say things are stupid. They often mean something else, but have less communication skills than adults, so it is a bit of a catch phrase. I do think you should probe further to figure out what they mean by stupid.

You are coming across to me, Roar, as quite critical of USing. Fine - I think it is fair to critique any system of education - there are no sacred cows in figuring out what works for our kids. But I also have to wonder if your expectations are unrealistic. I am positive that if I asked on both the more traditional learning at home board as well as the learning at school board if they had ever heard their kids say "this is stupid" in relation to something academic that the answer would be "yes!". You made a good point earlier that success should not be judged next to the lowest acceptable standards (they can read and do basic math or the stereotypical worse experience at public school) but nor should the expectations or ideal of USing be so high as to be unrealistic.
 
#130 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

I'm thinking this same example could be interpreted in a very different ways. Perhaps he's lacks the experience to have developed the skills to handle his feelings when he tries something new or doesn't immediately know how to do something. Perhaps shutting down isn't proof of his intrinsic motivation but instead of a lack of coping skills. Maybe he hasn't learned to be empathetic enough to understanding mom is interested in helping him. Maybe regular math would have a reaction nothing like the response to mom's self created math worksheet presented due to fears of standardized testing.

Folks can disagree with me but a kid calling new ideas "stupid" and being totally shut down doesn't really say to me that unschooling is producing a desirable result. Let's just say for a minute he believed the ONLY value in this was that it was important to you and you rarely ask such things of him. Is it appropriate that the main reaction if something is important to mom is to call it stupid and refuse to participate? I'm not seeing how this scenario reflects something positive about the unschooling process or about a child's self determination to be intrinsically motivated.
I don't know what's going on in anyone else's house, but it took me far too long to figure out that 95% when my oldest strongly declares that something is "stupid" or "boring" it really means that something about the task is making her uncomfortable (when she really thinks something is stupid or boring, she tends to be pretty calm about it). Usually, it means that she's confused or stuck. A tough thing with kids is that they can misuse emotion words, because they haven't got them entirely sorted out.
 
#131 ·
I'm curious, Roar, how unschooling is going in your house. You mentioned Miquon Math being popular. Your kids sound like they are enjoying it. Tell me about your experiences with academic work, unschooling, imposed work, how you deal with struggles if any. I'm interested in what an unschooling family with a strong emotional core *looks* like and *sounds* like.

I really am curious, and it is not just because it annoys me when you take one example we have shared out of the rich tapestry of our lives and declare that something is terribly wrong when resistance is encountered.
 
#132 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by onatightrope View Post

I don't know what's going on in anyone else's house, but it took me far too long to figure out that 95% when my oldest strongly declares that something is "stupid" or "boring" it really means that something about the task is making her uncomfortable (when she really thinks something is stupid or boring, she tends to be pretty calm about it). Usually, it means that she's confused or stuck. A tough thing with kids is that they can misuse emotion words, because they haven't got them entirely sorted out.
Yes, that.

I guess part of what concerns me in this thread, and in some others, is that where are the relationships? We hear that various learning activities if not appropriately child led can lead to damaged relationships. They can damage the relationship between the parent and the child. They can damage the relationship between the child and learning. So, the answer is: parent stop whatever you are doing, stop it.

What I'm not hearing in all of this are two things. One, an acknowledgement that the parent plays some role in the relationship other than dancing around their kids and hoping that they see those glimmers of academics that suggest it will be okay. Where's the part if a kid says "that's stupid" and refuses to participate in what sounds like the one activity the parent has requested, that isn't evidence of a relationship in which both parties are not working with each other? It seems like again and again the choices are presented as forcing a child to do worksheets or stepping away and hoping for the best because you fear any suggestion on your part will set your kids off. I'm just wondering when unschooling lost the gigantic zone in between these two places? To me when we hear again and again variations of my kids are the kind of kids that can't ever have me make a suggestion, what does that say about what is happening in those relationships?
 
#133 ·
I have to get off the computer (16 year old loitering around, a hint to get off, lol!) but I will come back....

Roar, do you or did you US?

I am sensing negativity (with little acknowledgment of the positives) and even an attempt to save us from ourselves in regards to USing, and it does not sit well with me.

I am just wondering what dog you have in this fight (to borrow an expression)?
 
#134 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post

I'm curious, Roar, how unschooling is going in your house. You mentioned Miquon Math being popular. Your kids sound like they are enjoying it. Tell me about your experiences with academic work, unschooling, imposed work, how you deal with struggles if any. I'm interested in what an unschooling family with a strong emotional core *looks* like and *sounds* like.

I really am curious, and it is not just because it annoys me when you take one example we have shared out of the rich tapestry of our lives and declare that something is terribly wrong when resistance is encountered.
We talked about this before. We are in a different place - you've got young kids and I'm retired (at home from k-12). To me a functional unschooling relationship involves an actual give and take with respect and communication for both parents and kids. It isn't "all about me" on either side. Parents and kids can work together to set goals and help each other along the way. Areas of development and maturity that would include: communication, empathy, goal setting, coping with frustration, making meaningful and increasing contributions to the home, being comfortable with asking for and accepting help, independence, trust, time management - not in a working at McDonald's way but in the way of learning to be thoughtful about making sure there is some attention to being mindful that the way time spent is leading to a person growing and feeling happy.

Little snippets might sound like this. "this is really important.. and here's why... I need your cooperation, how can we address this and make it work for both of us..." "Life feels out of balance to me right now.... it feels different than last spring do you notice that... ? "Can we brainstorm some ideas for solving this problem?" "My top priority for today is..." "Let's set up some learning goals for this fall..." "I notice you are struggling with... how can I help you?" What a functional relationship doesn't look like: kid rudely shuts down all parental ideas if they have the slightest whiff of academics and then plays video games 8 hours a day while mom worries and feels guilty for even thinking something different should maybe be happening.

As far as the one example, I didn't at all get the impression the mom felt it was unusual, but rather I believe she said it was illustrative of the response that occurs if the parent has an idea about the child's learning. Would you consider the response illustrated here to reflect some normal, inherent characteristic of the way children respond to any parental direction?
 
#135 ·
I guess we know the discussion has gotten heated when instead of focusing on the ideas it turns to evaluating if a person has a right to express ideas. Personally, I've not ever seen a lot of good come from the who discussions of what are the boundaries of unschooling and who is allowed to be a member of the club. It also seems to me that what defines unschooling is shifting pretty significantly over time. Endless years of video games and entering adult life without even minimal competency in basic academics really doesn't seem like it has a lot to do with John Holt for example.
 
#136 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

We talked about this before. We are in a different place - you've got young kids and I'm retired (at home from k-12). To me a functional unschooling relationship involves an actual give and take with respect and communication for both parents and kids. It isn't "all about me" on either side. Parents and kids can work together to set goals and help each other along the way. Areas of development and maturity that would include: communication, empathy, goal setting, coping with frustration, making meaningful and increasing contributions to the home, being comfortable with asking for and accepting help, independence, trust, time management - not in a working at McDonald's way but in the way of learning to be thoughtful about making sure there is some attention to being mindful that the way time spent is leading to a person growing and feeling happy.

Little snippets might sound like this. "this is really important.. and here's why... I need your cooperation, how can we address this and make it work for both of us..." "Life feels out of balance to me right now.... it feels different than last spring do you notice that... ? "Can we brainstorm some ideas for solving this problem?" "My top priority for today is..." "Let's set up some learning goals for this fall..." "I notice you are struggling with... how can I help you?" What a functional relationship doesn't look like: kid rudely shuts down all parental ideas if they have the slightest whiff of academics and then plays video games 8 hours a day while mom worries and feels guilty for even thinking something different should maybe be happening.

As far as the one example, I didn't at all get the impression the mom felt it was unusual, but rather I believe she said it was illustrative of the response that occurs if the parent has an idea about the child's learning. Would you consider the response illustrated here to reflect some normal, inherent characteristic of the way children respond to any parental direction?
Bold passages: excellent ways of beginning a conversation with kids.

Italics: Hyperbole. You make wonderful arguments, and then ruin it by doing this.

Underlined: yes, I do feel that it is perfectly normal that some kids do this, and I don't think it's necessarily indicative of the strength or health of the relationship. So, yes, I would say for many kids, it can be inherent. Note that I didn't include the word "any", because I don't know of any child who responds this way to "any" parental direction.

In one of my earliest posts, I gave many examples of how some days, in our house, I suggest many activities. My husband draws a bike maze, not because he is trying to find some magical entrance into their lives, but because it is a sunny day, he looks at the very clean patio, and thinks, "I want to draw them a bike maze. What fun!" I tried to illustrate that not all our activities are child led, not all suggestions are ignored, but all very unschoolish.

I hesitate to offer you any examples to illustrate because every time I've tried, you've suggested that something must wrong, "if..."

You ask "where are the relationships?" Well, in the interest of sticking to the topic, I avoided bringing up everything that happened in our house and lives. You know one tiny piece of my life. Did you know about taking down the family tree, all of us together? The bicycle rides through our gigantic puddles outside, rain pouring down and giggles aplenty? The brilliant cuddle we just had on the couch, reading Harry Potter? Brushing the cat? Getting a long-hoped for phone call from a busy friend? No, because this thread is about: unschooling, expectations regarding that, regrets regarding that, math and comprehension.
 
#137 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

I guess we know the discussion has gotten heated when instead of focusing on the ideas it turns to evaluating if a person has a right to express ideas. <snip> Endless years of video games and entering adult life without even minimal competency in basic academics really doesn't seem like it has a lot to do with John Holt for example.
You can express what you want. However, wanting to know if you have ever USed is relevant. I have never had kids go to a Waldorf school. I can express opinions about Waldorf schools, but they are hardly as likely to be as expansive or deep (be it positive or negative) as someone who has actually had kids in Waldorf.

Your last line, once again, is about negative stereotypes. No one here has said they had a kid enter adult life with minimal competency in basic academic skills (and honestly - not only directed at you - I am getting tired of that thrown around - it is quite uncommon as far as I know in USing and hardly the domain of only the USed). Yes, the OP's son is struggling in college math. College math - not basic academic skills.
 
#138 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

I guess we know the discussion has gotten heated when instead of focusing on the ideas it turns to evaluating if a person has a right to express ideas. Personally, I've not ever seen a lot of good come from the who discussions of what are the boundaries of unschooling and who is allowed to be a member of the club. It also seems to me that what defines unschooling is shifting pretty significantly over time. Endless years of video games and entering adult life without even minimal competency in basic academics really doesn't seem like it has a lot to do with John Holt for example.
Agreeing with kathymuggle. As helpful as your comments have been to the OP, for me I simply feel as if you've misrepresented yourself. I am not about to hop onto the Learning at School board with sometimes wise, sometimes hyper-critical and exaggerated comments, and never let anyone know that I'm actually a homeschooling mom. I think at the end of a long thread on which I've held up a substantial chunk of the debate, the regular parents there might feel resentful to learn that not only am I am unschooler but I have never even sent my kids to preschool, let alone public school.

I would more heartily welcome your perspective (or anyone visiting the unschooling board) if 1) you admitted up front that your knowledge of unschooling is second hand and academic, not from your own experience raising unschooled kids, and 2) you didn't pepper your arguments with the kind of comments like "endless years of video games and entering adult life without even minimal competency...." which illustrates to me that, while you've clearly done some homework on what unschooling entails, you don't know in the day to day sense, of knowing families who have unschooled their kids for long stretches or throughout childhood and what that might look like for each family.

Be mindful that the OP has been most welcoming of (at least some of) your comments. You raise some very intelligent points, and then you let slip some hyperbole and the value of all you've written is diminished.
 
#139 ·
Roar has been here a long time, both on MDC and in the unschooling threads (even before there was an unschooling board). We used to argue a lot, too, but I think we're really in agreement and probably always have been - we were just talking past each other. Or, to use I statements, I was more focused on winning an argument than understanding Roar's point.

It really is all so individual, and so based on the relationship one has with one's individual child/ren. Piglet68 (who also has been posting on these threads forever) said it well. What my child means when she says something is stupid may be different from what your child means - and what my child meant at 5 may be different from what she meant at 10 or 15. There's a balance in unschooling between not inflicting one'e own agenda on one's children and giving them the information and guidance they need to carry out their own goals, and the younger kids are, the more heavily the balance tends to be weighted towards the former, I think.

Rain was making college plans seriously from the time she was 15 - as in, taking community college classes that she could use to demonstrate mastery on a high school transcript of subjects that she didn't think she could otherwise demonstrate mastery in. For example, she spent a semester taking a Bio college class but just took the SAT II in Lit cold, because she already knew a lot of lit but very little bio. And yes, I talked with her about these choices, and joined email lists for homeschoolers hoping to get into college, and when she talked about how fun an art class would be, I agreed but reminded her of the big goals she has said she had.

On the other hand, her year in Russia messed up a lot of her planning - she couldn't taking the PSAT her junior year, for example (well, technically she could have, but it would have been a major PITA) or a lot of the courses she meant to take, and I floated the idea of taking a gap year before college and thought she agreed with that plan, until the summer before her senior year when she said she really, really didn't want to wait another year. I told her that would mean a really tough semester, trying to cover in one semester what we had planned to do in a year and a half, but she wanted to do it, and did it - not as well as she could have with an extra year, but well enough for her to get into a college she liked with a really good financial aid package, which was her goal.

All of that is really just to demonstrate what I was saying in the second paragraph, I guess I'm not saying I did this perfectly - Rain has said that it would have been great to have more guidance during her teen years from a professional admissions counselor, which I agree with, and I think if she hadn't gone to Russia we might have done that. And when she was 10, things didn't look at all like they did when she was 15, but she was learning and growing and happy.... so it seemed to be enough. And it was.
 
#140 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

You can express what you want. However, wanting to know if you have ever USed is relevant. I have never had kids go to a Waldorf school. I can express opinions about Waldorf schools, but they are hardly as likely to be as expansive or deep (be it positive or negative) as someone who has actually had kids in Waldorf.

Your last line, once again, is about negative stereotypes. No one here has said they had a kid enter adult life with minimal competency in basic academic skills (and honestly - not only directed at you - I am getting tired of that thrown around - it is quite uncommon as far as I know in USing and hardly the domain of only the USed). Yes, the OP's son is struggling in college math. College math - not basic academic skills.
It says a lot to me when rather than discussing ideas of unschooling, the discussion is made about who deserves to be in the club and who doesn't. For myself, and I'm guessing quite a few of the people reading here, some would define them as unschoolers and some would not as unschooling doesn't have a single universally accepted definition. The uniting element is that all of us feel drawn enough to the ideas of unschooling that we've in incorporated into ourlives and the education of our kids. Starting from that point, to me it would be interesting if we could actually discuss the ideas. Is that a reasonable hope?

As far as negative stereotypes, the original poster said her son needed help with 4th grade math when he started college. That wasn't lacking college competence, it was lacking an elementary school foundation. She unschooled, that was her experience. And, from what I've seen IRL and online this is not an isolated situation by any means. Is that to say every kid who unschools won't learn math? Of course not, because that brings me back to my first paragraph above. There are many definitions of unschooling. I don't see a lot of John Holt in kids who play PS2 day after day, week after week, while not developing core competency. Do you?
 
#141 ·
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post
I would more heartily welcome your perspective (or anyone visiting the unschooling board) if 1) you admitted up front that your knowledge of unschooling is second hand and academic, not from your own experience raising unschooled kids, and 2) you didn't pepper your arguments with the kind of comments like "endless years of video games and entering adult life without even minimal competency...." which illustrates to me that, while you've clearly done some homework on what unschooling entails, you don't know in the day to day sense, of knowing families who have unschooled their kids for long stretches or throughout childhood and what that might look like for each family.
I feel about a hundred years old. I've been in unschooling communities, online and IRL, since before you had babies. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not being appropriately enthusiastic about your bike maze or days of fun. There was a time when I loved reading descriptions of days well lived because it was new to me. Now, I just take it for granted that unschooled kids have great days with lots of fun, magic and learning. I was starting from the place of the original poster, which I got as basically - there are tons of wonderful great things that come from unschooling, but that in retrospect for her kid (and for many others) the motivation for particular academic subjects doesn't necessarily kick in. In time it doesn't get easier and in fact can by the teen years be a really tough thing to deal with.

Maybe as a community we can openly talk about these ideas. The poster feels she raised her worries over the years and always got the response that it would be fine, he'd eventually be motivated and learn quickly, or maybe she wasn't trusting unschooling enough (or some other variation of this). As a community of people who see great value in unschooling, can we talk about whether it leaves some kids without core skills they really need? What makes that happen? Is it just about lack of parental trust or do some kids need something different? Why is it that it seems that so often it sorts out either that kids are super gifted and capable in many areas like arts, academics, etc. or that they end up turned off academics entirely? Does any of that have to do with the definition of unschooling or the approach to unschooling?
 
#142 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

There's a balance in unschooling between not inflicting one'e own agenda on one's children and giving them the information and guidance they need to carry out their own goals, and the younger kids are, the more heavily the balance tends to be weighted towards the former, I think.
In our house we're at a transition point, and I think it's making us seem less unschooly. I've found myself having a lot of conversations with my kids along the lines of "well if you want to do X in the future, then you really need to start working on A, B and C now." and pointing out that for my oldest at least, she's never going to get past where she is with math until she's willing to put a little effort into practicing the mechanics of problem solving, even if it's not the most fun thing she's ever done. If my kids didn't have interests that required formal higher education, it might be different, but they do, and so we're talking a lot about what skills they need to get there from here, and how to go about acquiring them. I've been a lot more comfortable with what's going on in our house since we started having these conversations, and my kids seem happier and less bored than they were before.

I am often glad to be without a real unschooling community. We hang out with people who homeschool in lots of different ways--- mainly we're among "whatever works" homeschoolers, who are constantly adjusting what they do for the current situation and what is good for a particular child, and so there's no expectation or pressure to meet some outside standard of unschooliness.

None of this is to judge what anyone else is doing. But I do see Roar's point, and I am glad that I let go of my need for the unschooling label enough that I'm not afraid to have the conversations I'm having with my kids about how to achieve their goals.
 
#143 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

Roar has been here a long time, both on MDC and in the unschooling threads (even before there was an unschooling board). We used to argue a lot, too, but I think we're really in agreement and probably always have been - we were just talking past each other.
It is funny how we seem far apart but our positions have ended up closer than we would guess. Maybe change in us, but also maybe a change in the way unschooling has evolved a bit too.

Rain has clearly had some amazing opportunities and it is obvious you've both put energy into research and planning. The junior year abroad thing can really mess stuff up. I've seen this happen to public school kids who at least theoretically had professional guidance too. It is crazy and unfortunate how much has been squeezed into junior year for any kid who is looking at selective colleges or needs to get a really competitive scholarship packages.

Your point about the balance between child independence and parental information giving and guidance is a good one. For many of us one of the most challenging aspects of parenting is the evolution over time - what makes sense at six is going to be different than what makes sense at sixteen. The key is how does that transition take place and are there foundational steps that really need to be in place when kids are younger?
 
#144 ·
Another thing-- a lot of the time unschooling discussions turn into "we never did anything formal and my kid still aced this test" or whatever. I've participated in those conversations. But what gets left out, I think can be things like an experience we had where we didn't do anything formal, and my daughter took a test, and aced one part, but totally TOTALLY bombed another. As in, asked me in the car afterwards what "those C things" were in the math questions, because she didn't recognize parentheses when numbers were involved.
horrors.gif
So, there was our lack of formal math instruction biting her in the behind. Since we went through that, I've spent more time looking for holes in my kids' education, and trying to fill them so that they have the skills they need.

Having been through that, I get a little frustrated when I see people encouraging someone not to act on warning signs that their kid is not getting some important topic.
 
#145 ·
I've ducked out of this thread for a while and have been pondering some general thoughts, now that I'm the parent of three teens, one of whom is fairly fully 'launched.' Here's what I've been thinking about.

Simplistically you could say that unschooling is allowing the child to choose his own learning path, rather than having an adult choose it for him. As the child gradually grows closer to adulthood, it would be expected that his choices of a learning path would look less and less different from what an adult would have chosen for him, because he is becoming an adult.

This is what I've observed in my family. By the age of 12 or 13 I consider my kids to be nearing adulthood, certainly intellectually and socially they're closer to adults than they are to a four- or five-year-olds. And by that age they were beginning to make rather adult-like choices of learning material, format and structure. Not in every area, but I could see the change taking hold. Gradually they got interested in dividing their learning up into subject areas and making use of occasional textbooks or courseware. They enjoyed occasionally attending structured courses and having their learning measured against external benchmarks. They began to see a place for daily persistence in areas that didn't necessarily have a lot of intrinsic enjoyment for them because they saw them as tools they'd need. They began to see a need to contribute to the world at large in meaningful ways. And over the next handful of years their learning choices began to look less and less like unschooling.

But it seems unschoolers don't talk about this much. While they might proudly crow on unschooling forums like this about how their child spontaneously erupted with an observation about multiplication whilst baking cookies, they are not likely to proudly crow about their child asking to be made to do 20 minutes of khanacademy algebra every day, or taking an English course at the local community college. These things are often shared almost apologetically, as if they might disqualify one from the unschooling "club" and as if they spring from some sort of lack in one's unschooling environment.

To know whether you should be worried about a child's development, maturity and abilities, it helps to have some context. It doesn't make sense to use regular school students as that context for unschooled children. And so I have always appreciated gaining that context from message boards like this ... to hear from parents of unschooled early readers and later readers and those whose kids' math abilities grew steadily or in leaps and lags. If I understand what the range of typical is amongst unschoolers, I find comfort knowing that my kids fit somewhere in that range in a way that makes sense to me and fits with what I know about them.

But I think we're maybe not talking enough about the teen years and how unschooling typically stops looking so much like what we picture as unschooling. How as our kids become more like adults their self-directed learning typically begins to look more like what adults would have chosen for them anyway. It's not that they're not unschooling anymore. It's that unschooling for a 16-year-old is often, typically, quite structured and goal-directed and externally oriented. Just like schooling. And if you're not seeing this trend in your teen, well, there might be cause for concern.

I held my breath all of last year waiting for my ds (then 13/14) to show consistent signs of this shift. I was getting concerned. Then last summer it came, all in a rush. He's attending school part-time now, writing a busy and popular blog of his libertarian-left-atheistic thoughts, nurturing social and mentoring connections in the community. He gave up video-gaming for a full four months, then returned to it in a much-tempered fashion.

If this hadn't happened, I don't think it would have been helpful for me to continue to read on message boards like this primarily about younger children engaged in spontaneous life-learning. And to have parents of teens quietly slip into lurkdom, feeling that because their kids were busily self-directing structured studies and courses and working part-time that they had nothing worth saying to the unschooling community.

I would love to see an ongoing thread on this board about the exploits of teens autonomously directing their own educations. Even if they're now in high school full-time or taking community college courses or whatever. I think it's helpful to know that this is what unschooling often looks like for teens.

Miranda
 
#146 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

But I think we're maybe not talking enough about the teen years and how unschooling typically stops looking so much like what we picture as unschooling. How as our kids become more like adults their self-directed learning typically begins to look more like what adults would have chosen for them anyway. It's not that they're not unschooling anymore. It's that unschooling for a 16-year-old is often, typically, quite structured and goal-directed and externally oriented. Just like schooling. And if you're not seeing this trend in your teen, well, there might be cause for concern.
But see, there is still a very broad acceptance in the unschooling world that if you don't see what you're describing, that is still OK. In conferences, support groups, online, you name it, the message is that you (mom) have no way of knowing where seemingly wasteful pursuits might lead and that you must release your school mindset and simply look for the learning in these things. Better yet, just join them in doing whatever it is and try to understand the passion better. But it is never OK to impose limits on the activity because that's disrespectful and how would you feel if your dh told you to get stop an activity you loved because he thought it was not serving you in a broader sense? I have even heard lectures telling newer unschooling parents to provide sponge baths and food trays to kids who do not want to draw themselves away from TV or video games.

Now, my ds did pull away from gaming and really broadened his interests at about age 16, but he has told me a lot of that came from a desire to seem more "normal" to his more conventionally educated friends, not from some miraculous intrinsic spark that had been nurtured all the years he only had himself to answer to (maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, we were not completely radical unschoolers, and there were expectations and consequences). Point being, this method does not *produce* the intrinsic desire to learn, imo. It just provides an amazing amount of freedom for those kids who already have that motivation and can truly use that freedom to their benefit.
 
#147 ·
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Originally Posted by Roar View Post

As far as negative stereotypes, the original poster said her son needed help with 4th grade math when he started college. That wasn't lacking college competence, it was lacking an elementary school foundation. She unschooled, that was her experience. And, from what I've seen IRL and online this is not an isolated situation by any means. Is that to say every kid who unschools won't learn math? Of course not, because that brings me back to my first paragraph above. There are many definitions of unschooling. I don't see a lot of John Holt in kids who play PS2 day after day, week after week, while not developing core competency. Do you?
I was told by the tutor we hired for ds that he needed remediation back to 4th grade math skills. He still has issues with basic arithmetic, though he is grasping many algebraic concepts at this point. I have come to believe that it is by no means a waste of time to hone arithmetic skills before moving on to broader math concepts (and I'm no math person). The classes he is struggling with are high school level remedials, just to clarify.

Unschooling has changed a lot since John Holt coined the term to be sure. I certainly don't think he envisioned an unschooling home full of computers and game systems.
 
#148 ·
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Originally Posted by Tigeresse View Post

But see, there is still a very broad acceptance in the unschooling world that if you don't see what you're describing, that is still OK.
I've never been one to take advice of supposed experts based on their ideologies. I'm more apt to absorb a range of others' experiences, especially when their ideologies resonate with mine, to get a sense of the range of approaches, and find my own path as a result of this knowledge and my instincts.

But I guess my point is that it's a tiny but vocal minority of unschooling parents that is touting the sponge-baths-for-gaming-addicted-teens, and we don't hear enough about the remaining 99% of the spectrum of unschooling teens. So we get a skewed view of what's typical and acceptable for unschooling families.

Miranda
 
#149 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

It says a lot to me when rather than discussing ideas of unschooling, the discussion is made about who deserves to be in the club and who doesn't. For myself, and I'm guessing quite a few of the people reading here, some would define them as unschoolers and some would not as unschooling doesn't have a single universally accepted definition. The uniting element is that all of us feel drawn enough to the ideas of unschooling that we've in incorporated into ourlives and the education of our kids. Starting from that point, to me it would be interesting if we could actually discuss the ideas. Is that a reasonable hope?

I think it is a reasonable hope. Without going back into this thread, I felt you had made some overly negative and stereotypical comments and it was rubbing me the wrong way. Even the "club" comment is a stereotype. From the user guide, I felt you had been skating close to this: We will actively discourage an individual from solely posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the belief or view in discussion, or who posts only to prove unschooling concepts to be wrong, misguided or not based on fact.

I admit I could be wrong, and whether or not you are guilty of the above is subjective. I don't mind a debate though
winky.gif
so it is hardly something I would report anyone over unless they are a clear troll (you are not). I do think it is reasonable for me to call you on it, though.

It does not bother me at all the the Op has decided another way of schooling is better for her family - or for sharing that.

It does not bother me if anyone insists their kids do a certain amount of work - nor do I think it is automatically or usually damaging to either the relationship or future learning (although it can be - I trust the parents involved to figure that out).

I am not thrilled with someone coming on and telling us that we really should insist our kids do xyz of academic work. It seems mildly patronising. To me, not forcing kids to do work they are not interested in or developmentally ready for is a cornerstone of USing. It is not as simple as this, but if a parent insists a child is working on something on the parents agenda on a regular basis that the kid does not in any way buy into, that is not USing. Do you disagree? If so, it might be a term issue.

I do actually think you brought up a few interesting points, but it was hard for me to see them past my perception of your negativity. Off to get a tea, move on and write some more!

Good thread, OP!
 
#150 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

What I'm not hearing in all of this are two things. One, an acknowledgement that the parent plays some role in the relationship other than dancing around their kids and hoping that they see those glimmers of academics that suggest it will be okay.

Where's the part if a kid says "that's stupid" and refuses to participate in what sounds like the one activity the parent has requested, that isn't evidence of a relationship in which both parties are not working with each other? It seems like again and again the choices are presented as forcing a child to do worksheets or stepping away and hoping for the best because you fear any suggestion on your part will set your kids off. I'm just wondering when unschooling lost the gigantic zone in between these two places? To me when we hear again and again variations of my kids are the kind of kids that can't ever have me make a suggestion, what does that say about what is happening in those relationships?
Italics mine.

Here is the middle ground:

1. Waiting. I think this is often appropriate if your kids are young. I think the work of young children in particular (under 7, but all kids are different) is play. It is often clearly how they are wired, and I think a solid play-based childhood actually help to build strong brains.

2. finding an alternate resource. Your child does not want to do worksheets - how about math card games? Computer games? This might not be appropriate for the teen set, but certainly is for the younger set. I suppose it is possible that a child rejects all things where learning is the goal - but unlikely. If your child really does rebel at anything that smacks of academic type learning, I do think there is an issue. It might be solved by waiting and trying again in a bit, or by separating yourself out from the process ( having a tutor, friend, other parent, mentor) do the learning activities.

3. Some sense of developmental readiness. If my 10 year could not read I would be concerned; if my teen did not understand or was not working on the fact that you need xyz to meet abc goal, I would be concerned. Concerned for me could result in many things - discussion, changing resources, direct instruction. Whatever works! The goal, or my goal, is to produce happy children who are capable of meeting their goals. The goal is not USing - USing is just a path that might work.

Lastly, I have been known (rarely) to insist kids do academics. Because I was worried. I do not know or care if that is not USing. Sometimes my worry and stress is worse for my child's learning experience than their desire to avoid work. Example - if I, as the mother, am becoming stressed and worried my kid can't read, and am perhaps projecting that onto them, it might make more sense to just insist the kid learn to read. I think this is inappropriate with a 6 yr old but perfectly fine with a nine year old. Sometimes insisting on academics worked and sometimes it did not. The times it worked had the following common factors: the kid, on some level, was ready for it and I (often in conjunction with them) picked a resource that worked.
 
#151 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

But I guess my point is that it's a tiny but vocal minority of unschooling parents that is touting the sponge-baths-for-gaming-addicted-teens, and we don't hear enough about the remaining 99% of the spectrum of unschooling teens. So we get a skewed view of what's typical and acceptable for unschooling families.
I think this is really true - both that this is a small minority and that it's a particularly vocal one on the internet. I do worry about unschooled teens who don't seem to have any future plans or interests outside of their immediate selves. I do worry about unschooled teens - or any teens - who aren't becoming increasingly independent. I'm posted that sentiment, here and elsewhere. That can look like a lot of different things, some quite conventional (classes, tests, curriculum) and others not (interning at a comedy club, designing knitting patterns, doing photography for a local band), but I think I know it when I see it...
 
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