Radical Unschooler? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 10:02 AM
 
4evermom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Honestly, I don't think it is very RU to follow a philosophy, even an RU one. :lol

 

I do think people get hung up on doing it the "right" way and that can cause problems because they aren't listening to the little voices in their heads. I don't really believe in looking to others for how my family should work. Families are just too different... 


Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
4evermom is offline  
#62 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 10:34 AM
 
moominmamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the middle of nowhere, at the centre of everything.
Posts: 5,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evermom View Post
 

Honestly, I don't think it is very RU to follow a philosophy, even an RU one. :lol

 

I do think people get hung up on doing it the "right" way and that can cause problems because they aren't listening to the little voices in their heads. I don't really believe in looking to others for how my family should work. Families are just too different... 

 

:yeah

 

Miranda


Mountain mama to three great kids and one great grown-up

moominmamma is online now  
#63 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 10:35 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 4,987
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)

Yet I love hearing about your family, especially on the food threads, because in so many ways my family is more like yours than others'.  

 

I guess that's not philosophy.  But perhaps how the philosophy might be born?  People band together under a common technique, divergent from the mainstream, that works for their families and want to "preach the gospel" to other families with similar frustrations, then that generalizes more....


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#64 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 10:59 AM
 
4evermom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post
 

Yet I love hearing about your family, especially on the food threads, because in so many ways my family is more like yours than others'.  

 

I guess that's not philosophy.  But perhaps how the philosophy might be born?  People band together under a common technique, divergent from the mainstream, that works for their families and want to "preach the gospel" to other families with similar frustrations, then that generalizes more....

Yeah, we learn how to parent a certain kind of way because we have a certain kind of kid. And then we are horrified when we hear of people making their kids eat what's being served or nothing. Because we think of how our kids would react to that. But the people who have kids that like everything? Those kids might be completely unphased by the experience. So those parents think I'm nuts, that I'm catering to my PIA kid making him be that way.

 

The whole not saying no thing? People think that means do whatever your child wants whenever he wants it. In reality, it is a way to affirm your child's desires and let him know when and how it would be possible to realize them. "I want to go the the playground!" is answered with "OK, let's do that after I finish this. Want to help so I'm done faster?" Sure the kid might want to go "now" but when he's treated reasonably, he tends to be more reasonable because he knows you are working on helping him with what he wants. But then again, my son was always a very reasonable kid when he wasn't hungry or tired so what do I know? Some young children aren't very good at reasoning... And trying not to say no, which many people use automatically, without considering, helps you think more flexibly about the options. And it helps your child accept the times when you really have to say no. (You can't ride home on the top of the car.) My girlfriend thought I was completely nuts for not saying no. But it worked so well with my child. I'm pretty sure he would have been diagnosed as having Oppositional Defiance Disorder. Interestingly, I read the best technique for that is to not tell your children what to do.


Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
4evermom is offline  
#65 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 02:26 PM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

yes, to clarify, I was following on from my previous post which was trying to give an idea of how I understand RU to characterise non-RU systems. There was a disclaimer in there that there are many different ideas about what is and what isn't RU. My issue is really with the way some RU writers criticise non-RU parents and their dire predictions of our kids futures re cleaning, screens and sweeties.  

 

I have no problem at all with anyone following RU. I really believe in doing the best for our own families. I don't believe in one size fits all parenting. I very much agree with Miranda-in my experience, the issue and difficulties with RU really started with the third kid, just the range of personalities and needs. Even with two, it was much harder. Actually the other thing with three kids, four kids, whatever is that the sheer volume of chores gets so much bigger that my house would be really unmanageable, fast, if everyone didn't clean up after themselves. The other issue is that, IME, one kid will end up doing chores disproportionately. And this would be one or other of my girls, I think, while my son would be in his room reading about unicorns. I'm really not ok with that. 

 

What I have a problem with is RU writers characterising anyone who doesn't follow their particular brand of RU as not trusting their kids, as producing kids who are going to rebel and become the opposite of what you were after. Which, apart from feeling a bit manipulative-by-stealth to me, also just isn't, IMO, what actually happens. 

 

I find what works with my kids is talking to them, honesty. I find for my kids its a lot easier and better to say, "The hall needs cleaning. Grandma is arriving in three hours and its important to her that the entryway is clear as she is afraid of falling.". (with good reason). That's what works for my family. I can't do everything myself, even if I were happy to- and we have five people sharing a small house. But we all have to figure our for ourselves what works for our families. And ourselves. Because really, I am never going to joyfully do any sort of cleaning, and nor is dp.  I'm cool with that, and I think it demonstrates something else valuable that you can not want to do something, and yet, because you want the payoff from that, you can jsut get on and do it and not fret too much about whether you are finding joy in scrubbing the cat hairs off the sofa or whatever it is .

triscuit and Cassidy68 like this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#66 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 03:51 PM
 
4evermom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Gotchya. I don't know why I misunderstood you. Probably from reading posts piecemeal...

 

I really don't like most of the unschooling boards, either. I've had people be horrified that I put vegetables in baked goods and declare it sneaky, manipulative, and wrong. Whatever. I'm not trying to pull one over on ds. I'm just trying to serve him vegetables in a way he can palate. He knows the brownies have kale and black beans in them. :lol

Fillyjonk likes this.

Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
4evermom is offline  
#67 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 08:32 PM
 
triscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CO
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

What a great convo, I am learning a lot and this is putting words on exactly how I feel about some RU issues. I think the approach of 'joyfully cleaning' and the kids helping as they desire is adequate for some families, but even with one child I am the same as Fillyjonk in that I want to help my son view the responsibility as equally shared even though in this house I do tend to be the one doing more of the household stuff. Although he totally has said something along the lines of what @moominmamma mentioned which was "Mommy, you like to clean and Daddy likes to make it dirty!" :lol Or when I talk about how he needs to clean up a mess he says "But Mommy, you're a good cleaner." So yeah... I definitely try to make it about responsibility and "doing a task to maintain and contribute to their own living space" like @Fillyjonk said.


DS: Logan 6/14/10 nocirc.gif

triscuit is offline  
#68 of 74 Old 11-12-2013, 08:39 PM
 
triscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CO
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Not to get too 'off-topic' (or is it, hmmm??)

But... @4evermom I totally agree with you on the 'not saying no' thing. For me I actually just don't even like literally saying the word... haha... I do the same thing and it's amazing how easy it is to frame things once you get in the habit of not saying it. Then when I'm around other parents or family members I feel like they say it ALL the time and my son always seems kind of... downtrodden with that, just like he has no options. When he was younger I used "I can't let you because..." statements. When we are in stores, etc. I say "that needs to stay there but you can touch this". And I don't know, I've had very good response with it. But similarly to your first paragraph- that is only what worked for my little guy.

4evermom likes this.

DS: Logan 6/14/10 nocirc.gif

triscuit is offline  
#69 of 74 Old 11-14-2013, 12:59 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

ah the "no" thing. I do say no, after starting off never saying it. But nowadays I use it when appropriate. For a lot of reasons. First, my son just glazes over and doesn't hear long explanations. He was actually better when he was little but more recently, he's actually said "can you just say yes or no, please?". Also, if I give an explanation and its not popular, it seems to give rise to debate. And there are times I'm not up for debate, there are times things just have to happen. And, tbh, there are things that are non-negotiable in my house, which might again be a function of having more than one child. So I do say no, quite often. Also, my kids have found long explanations patronising in the past and prefer a quick reminder. 

 

Two of my kids also seem to need very clear, consistent, boundaries.

 

So I do use "no". Not reflexively, but I certainly use it, and I don't stress about it.  The trouble with "no" is that it doesn't give much information. But, otoh, its not always appropriate or desirable to give lots of information, IMO. I'm mainly talking safety things, big decision things here, I'm not in favour of saying no to kind of train a kid to get used to hearing it.

 

Again, I think this is family specific. I'm more interested really in looking at my family as a whole, at the relationship I have with my kids, on this one. I know enough families who never say "no" and enough that do, to feel that there really isn't much difference between the kids or their relationship to their parents as they get older. OTOH if a parent over-uses no, or uses it to make a kid feel bad, then its probably worth them trying not to use it, IMO. Its all very subjective.


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#70 of 74 Old 11-14-2013, 06:44 AM
 
4evermom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

It's like the kids with oral sensitivities/food thing. If saying no to your child doesn't trigger some kind of power struggle issue, and you don't overuse it in the first place, it's no big deal. It's just a word. But it is pretty incredible how often young children seem to be told no and good to not use it thoughtlessly.


Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
4evermom is offline  
#71 of 74 Old 11-14-2013, 07:45 PM
 
triscuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: CO
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Yes, I do admit (and I hope I don't sound flip/floppy when I say this) but I've definitely said it, but FAR less that what I hear from most parents we hang around with and also the family we have and friends that interact with our son. Like for instance my Dad was over a couple weekend ago and any time there was anything the slightest bit "off" that my son was doing (for instance picking up something that may be too heavy for him or could break, starting to climb on something that could hurt him, etc.) he would just say NO and that was it. Which really there is nothing "wrong" with it but it's just way different than my style of communication with him so I was definitely a little taken aback. I also agree with the notion that if you aren't saying it a whole lot then when you do say it they stop because they are paying attention and only assuming you are saying it because it's an absolute.

 

I also think as time goes on I will evolve into something you described @Fillyjonk which is using it if it's better for what my son will understand. Now he does not have quite the capacity to think through reasons (extensively anyway) or come up with solutions himself so it's helpful for him to get exposed to more knowledge on why decisions are made. But I can totally see in the future as he develops that, he can just ask me a yes or no question and work out in his own mind what he *can* do. 

 

As with all issues, I agree they ARE totally subjective. I've found what works with my son and what I think helps him because of his nature/personality but I agree different decisions would be made with different temperaments. :)


DS: Logan 6/14/10 nocirc.gif

triscuit is offline  
#72 of 74 Old 01-26-2014, 11:34 PM
 
lanamommyphd07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everywhere, USA
Posts: 1,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

We're pretty RU around here, and I've been asked about the chores and jobs kind of thing before--mostly when someone sees me picking up DD (6)s toys or something.

 

In the "old" days, I worked as a play therapist and had a standing rule that no child was allowed to pick up after the session. There were logistic reasons for it, but mostly it was because the child's need was to play. My need was to have a fresh space for the next one. Why would I place my need on a small person?

 

From an RU lens, the family is the place of learning. She is learning to roll our way...one of much compassion. So--just as I would not demand that she learn a specific thing at a specific time, I would also not demand that she change her environment to suit my needs. If I have a sudden need for a clean table, then it becomes my responsibility to get myself a clean table. And, yes, I do ask first. So--"DD, are you done with these projects for now--are they safe and can I move them someplace?" She might say "I want to do one more thing to them" in which case I will wait or assist, or she might say "sure--you can put them somewhere", or she might say "Can I help?". I demand none of those, and I don't praise any of them either. I just stay authentic and let her know that her help really made it go so much faster. She gets occasionally really motivated to clean stuff or sort things, and I'm often struck by how similar this is to adults in the real world, right?

 

The day before we travel (we are a full-time RVing family), it is BIG CLEAN day, because everything has to be stowed back for travel and sorted and tetris-ed into where it goes. We have a set rhythm for this--and DD is a champ at decluttering stuff or putting things in the donate bag. And sometimes she is not. Sometimes she loves to sweep. Sometimes she does not. It's pretty fun sometimes when I ask her to be the director of the show, and she orders me around telling me what might come next or pointing out that I forgot this thing or that. This creates a lot of giggles, but it also does another thing: My kid knows a lot about stowing an RV, even though she's not ever been expected to do the gig herself. She took ownership of some features, like smearing hitch grease, putting the slide in or gathering dog toys or doing the last minute grounds check. I don't ask her to do these things--she does them because they are fun for her. If I called them chores and made up a chart...well, that would just wreck it.  Then again, if I had to do the whole thing myself because she was engrossed in building something and was not interested, I would do the whole thing myself with no resentment.

 

I hope that gives some kind of a picture of how our family approaches cleanups and such--but I think it's most important that a child is part of a unique family culture--and if that involves some discussion about division of labor in that family (as long as everyone is taking ownership of their needs), I think it's probably important to do, too.

 

I have just been assigned a Google search....seems the question about the quality of life for the dolphin who did Flipper has been called into question. I've waited a bit until she has enjoyed a few more of the stories, but I'd bet we're in for a doozie. Hope it doesn't kill the show for her. She was quite disgusted by Sea World when we visited....oh dear.

lanamommyphd07 is offline  
#73 of 74 Old 01-27-2014, 07:56 AM
 
moominmamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In the middle of nowhere, at the centre of everything.
Posts: 5,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 View Post
 

I don't ask her to do these things--she does them because they are fun for her. 

 

I have one child like that. And three who aren't. :eyesroll There are challenges that accrue exponentially when the constraints of a small space fall away and the number of cohabitants increases, particularly when several of them don't find pleasure in the work. I think it's fabulous that what you're doing works for you, and it's a very strong argument for simplicity. Having lived in a camper for periods of up to a couple of months, I know parts of life on the road can be really complicated and time-consuming, but the natural constraints do create an inarguable simplicity. 

 

Miranda


Mountain mama to three great kids and one great grown-up

moominmamma is online now  
#74 of 74 Old 01-27-2014, 01:04 PM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
I have to be completely honest and say that I am not into that part of RU, the part that would end in me picking up after a 6 year old. A 1 year old yes. A 6 year old, I would have a problem with (my kids are 10,8 and rising 6). In fact the housework thing-the idea that I should pick up after my kids, rather than them, three very active and able kids, cleaning up after themselves and contributing to the house generally. It just doesn't work for me.
 
I don't find that agreeing, as a family, that a level of housework is needed and agreeing, as a family, that we all need to pitch in, has to be onerous, or coercive. My experience is that the kids benefit from this first anyway, because it results in more time as a family. But I also think this is one of the challenges of having multiple kids. If two of my kids help clean the kitchen after supper, but we have time for a family game with all three as a result, that does not work well with family dynamics.
 
Another point for me-a very serious one to me-is that realistically, without discussion and agreement about who does the chores, I will do the chores and my daughters will gravitate to help. My partner is absolutely on board with doing more than his share, but he's not here in the day. So we end up with a situation where me and my girls are cleaning while my son is on minecraft. Not cool. Yet on the RU lists I used to be on this seemed a very common, unexamined situation.
 
I also think that basic skills here are really crucial. I see part of my job as equipping my kids to have as much choice as possible in their lives, part of that is frugality skills-the less you can survive on financially, the more choices you have- and that means knowing how to wire a plug, make lentils exciting, grow food. I think its a little like toothbrushing, kids don't always see the point in them now but I spend a lot of time trying to explain that they have to take my word for it that its helpful, and ditto with cooking, cleaning, etc for my no-longer-thrilled-with-gardening-just-want-to-read 10 year old. Maybe that makes me not an RUer, and that's totally cool, I don't mind.
 
ETA just realised I totally repeated what I said above. I was just thinking, isn't there an RU megathread around somewhere that we all did months ago? Didn't realise this actually was it  :-) . Sorry.
rinap likes this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
Reply

Tags
Unschooling

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off