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"Why don't you make me do _____?"

4K views 81 replies 11 participants last post by  pek64 
#1 ·
I teach violin to a couple of unschooled kids including a 12-year-old boy. My younger dd, now 10, is also unschooled and has been struggling with her motivation to practice violin. She is in a master class (sort of a shared private lesson) with the 12-year-old and another boy, and last week I initiated a conversation amongst the kids about motivation for practicing. "Do you sometimes find it a struggle to practice consistently?" I asked, inviting comments and suggestions and commiseration from amongst the kids.

Amidst the conversation that followed, the 12-year-old said "Violin is no problem for me. But math, I have a curriculum for that that I want to do, but I really have trouble staying motivated."

"My mom makes me do math if I don't feel like it," said my dd. Which is sort of the truth. She asked me to make sure she does math three times a week, because she has a specific goal that she wants to complete this year and because she loves the sense of accomplishment she gets from progressing. So if she hasn't fit that in and there's no good reason (eg. illness, travel) to bail on her own expectations for the week, I sometimes initiate a session with her by suggesting a couple of times that would fit into the day and asking her to choose between them. I don't "make her" do it with bribes and punishments. I just say "Okay, you should do some math today. When do you want to do it?"

And the 12-year-old reacted to that by asking his dad "Why don't you make me do math? I told you I want to do it, but I just don't always feel like it. You should make me anyway, so I don't get down on myself for leaving it."

His dad responded by saying that "making" a child do schoolwork is what led him to hate learning as a child, so he wasn't going to do that to his own children. He said "I want your learning to be motivated by you."

Which really got me thinking. Clearly that dad and I have different interpretations of the idea of self-motivated learning. We both want our kids' learning to be self-motivated. But I consider it to be self-motivated if my child says "I would like you to hold me accountable so that I actually follow through on these goals I have for myself. " I consider structuring and initiating what my child has asked for (and admits she still wants, in the long-term scheme of things, if not necessarily while she's in the midst of watching a sitcom episode on the computer) to be supporting her self-motivated desires. The other kid's dad considers what I do to be over-riding the child's self-motivated desires.

Where do you fall on this issue? Have you faced situations like this, where your child has asked you for help staying accountable, following through, sticking with something through the bumps? How did you react?

Miranda
 
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#27 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

This is all theory, because we do not have enough knowledge about those involved. That said, I think the dad should be doing more.

I'm reminded of my childhood. Having heard stories of my sisters' piano lessons, and how my mother made them practice everyday, I wanted the same. My mother said she was through with that kind of thing, and inspite of playing the piano on my own (with the help of one lesson and a beginner book from one sister), I was given lessons or made to practice. I felt that my mother loved my sisters and not me, as a result. What this father and son are going through may be similar. It might be friends instead of siblings, but *refusing* to get more involved may be perceived as not caring. So, this may be about love as much as math. For those who have read the Five Love Languages (or whatever the actual title), isn't time spent one of the languages?
I just read this, and discovered a missing "not"! My mother did NOT give me lessons or make me practice. Hence I felt she loved my sisters and not me. I will be editing the post itself, too, for the benefit of those who may read it later.
 
#30 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

I certainly wouldn't drag a child along, even if asked to help at the start. Homeschooling is about flexibility, after all. But the dad didn't respond with a 'I tried, remember?' He responded with a statement of philosophy. That makes me think it is less likely that he was burned previously.
There are some complicating factors in this family. Mom used to do all the active unschooling facilitation. Dad was philosophically in complete agreement, but mom dealt mostly with the kids while dad worked away from home a lot, so I don't think he had much of a sense of the nuances of the day-to-day flow. Then dad had a cardiac arrest, retired from work (he's an older dad, now in his 60's) and mom went to work full-time-plus this past fall. Dad is still finding his feet with the on-the-ground, day-to-day aspects of home-based learning. He is trying to carry on with what mom was doing, but I think she may have been offering a fair bit more active support than he was aware of. I know the mom really well; the dad not so much -- and she did do a lot to support and nurture and inspire when she was the stay-at-home parent. So dad is still kind of figuring it out, and my tendency is to cut them some slack on all of this and not really judge or presume. They're still finding their way. Maybe dad wasn't burned previously, but mom was, or dad interpreted something in a way that made him think mom was, or ... well, who knows?

I wasn't trying to ask "Who is right in this case?" but just to discuss the issue it raised in a more general way.

Miranda
 
#31 ·
I see no issue with holding kids accountable and helping them (with out forcing them) to reach a goal that they have asked for help with. I do the exact same for my husband all the time! He will ask me to remind him to do XYZ or to help him to make a plan and stick with it (currently its eating better). I feel its totally (or even MORE) appropriate to do that for ac child who asks. I loved the example of helping them by setting up their stuff and making tea for them at a specified time. They can always choose to drink the tea and not do the math if they really really feel like not doing it, but I think most kids when wanting to reach a goal and asking for some reminders and would appreciate that kind of non-coercive help.

Just like an adult helping another adult. :)
 
#32 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

There are some complicating factors in this family. Mom used to do all the active unschooling facilitation. Dad was philosophically in complete agreement, but mom dealt mostly with the kids while dad worked away from home a lot, so I don't think he had much of a sense of the nuances of the day-to-day flow. Then dad had a cardiac arrest, retired from work (he's an older dad, now in his 60's) and mom went to work full-time-plus this past fall. Dad is still finding his feet with the on-the-ground, day-to-day aspects of home-based learning. He is trying to carry on with what mom was doing, but I think she may have been offering a fair bit more active support than he was aware of. I know the mom really well; the dad not so much -- and she did do a lot to support and nurture and inspire when she was the stay-at-home parent. So dad is still kind of figuring it out, and my tendency is to cut them some slack on all of this and not really judge or presume. They're still finding their way. Maybe dad wasn't burned previously, but mom was, or dad interpreted something in a way that made him think mom was, or ... well, who knows?

I wasn't trying to ask "Who is right in this case?" but just to discuss the issue it raised in a more general way.

Miranda
I'm not saying he's a bad dad, if that's the judgment you mean. I was *trying* to discuss this in general, but have been told, repeatedly, that my opinion is wrong! I'll take my opinion and go, then.
 
#33 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

I wasn't trying to ask "Who is right in this case?" but just to discuss the issue it raised in a more general way.
What about my suggestion of helping the child create their own schedule to achieve their goal? First you would need to talk with them and help them define the goal. Then help them set alarms and maybe set up their workstation for them as someone else suggested.
 
#34 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

I'm not saying he's a bad dad, if that's the judgment you mean. I was *trying* to discuss this in general, but have been told, repeatedly, that my opinion is wrong! I'll take my opinion and go, then.
No, please don't go! I just think it's not really the role of this board to decide whether the dad ought to make more effort or let it lie -- we're not part of their family, so we can't truly know.

Miranda
 
#35 ·
Not a judgment, I think everyone reads the situation and has a first impression, and different people are falling on different sides of this. We really have no way of knowing if our impressions would be backed up if we knew more. I fully concede the possibility that my first impression is incorrect.

It seems like everyone is more of less on the same page with regards to the issue in general.
 
#36 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambersrose View Post

What about my suggestion of helping the child create their own schedule to achieve their goal? First you would need to talk with them and help them define the goal. Then help them set alarms and maybe set up their workstation for them as someone else suggested.
Yes, I think this is a great suggestion. For me that discussion of the desired schedule is the obvious first step. And if the schedule doesn't stick easily, you need to revisit the issue to talk about what tweaks would help. I think weekly discussions, at least until there's a really good flow happening, are a great idea.

We haven't had much luck with alarms here, though, because alarms reside in one location, and kids and families roam. Even if we situate an alarm in a central area or make a point of having it follow the child around if he or she moves, life throws us curve balls and often we're gone to town on an errand or someone shows up for a visit or we're outside playing or doing yard work, or the kid has just stepped into the bath or something. Alarms also don't have a built-in flexibility that says "it's getting to be mid-afternoon, so if you want to do half an hour of math before dinner, you should think about whether you want to play a whole game of Settlers of Catan, or maybe choose something shorter, or maybe do your math now and play a game after." Alarms just beep ... and my kids find that often they might have good reasons for not necessarily dropping everything and moving to the appointed task at that instant, for wanting a little flexibility, but once the alarm has not been immediately heeded it provides no additional guidance.

We have better luck scheduling things for after meals. So rather than saying "Spanish at 12:30" my kid will say "Right after lunch, before I get started on anything else, I'll do a few minutes of Spanish." Because even though my kids are responsible for preparing their own day-time meals (we do dinner as a family meal but the rest is free-ranging) they do invariably eat something that they would call lunch.

I find that sometimes there's a magic in revisiting a scheduling expectation that has unravelled and simply asking "Is this still something you want to do?" For instance, last fall my youngest said she wanted to do outdoor exercise with me three times a week. It was really tough to schedule, since there are so many variables in our lives that squeeze in, so while we initially tried "after breakfast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays" that regularity fell apart quickly and after that we just did our best to find windows for it. But she didn't seem enthusiastic, and after enduring a few weeks of declined invitations and moaning over being too tired or not liking how cold and wet it was or whatever I gave up. Then over the winter holidays I took some time to revisit her plans and ambitions for the year and we talked about that outdoor exercise thing. Surprisingly, she was very enthusiastic to delve into it again. She regretted having got out of the habit, and was excited about doing a lot more in the way of winter sports -- trying out XC skiing, getting out on the hill for some downhilling, building an igloo, skating, snowshoeing. We didn't end up changing anything about the original plan. She had just realized that despite her occasional lack of enthusiasm on any given day and during certain seasons, she did still really want to be active outdoors on a regular basis, and felt it was worth pushing herself a bit harder than she had.

Miranda
 
#37 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

Yes, I think this is a great suggestion. For me that discussion of the desired schedule is the obvious first step. And if the schedule doesn't stick easily, you need to revisit the issue to talk about what tweaks would help. I think weekly discussions, at least until there's a really good flow happening, are a great idea.

We haven't had much luck with alarms here, though, because alarms reside in one location, and kids and families roam. Even if we situate an alarm in a central area or make a point of having it follow the child around if he or she moves, life throws us curve balls and often we're gone to town on an errand or someone shows up for a visit or we're outside playing or doing yard work, or the kid has just stepped into the bath or something. Alarms also don't have a built-in flexibility that says "it's getting to be mid-afternoon, so if you want to do half an hour of math before dinner, you should think about whether you want to play a whole game of Settlers of Catan, or maybe choose something shorter, or maybe do your math now and play a game after." Alarms just beep ... and my kids find that often they might have good reasons for not necessarily dropping everything and moving to the appointed task at that instant, for wanting a little flexibility, but once the alarm has not been immediately heeded it provides no additional guidance.

We have better luck scheduling things for after meals. So rather than saying "Spanish at 12:30" my kid will say "Right after lunch, before I get started on anything else, I'll do a few minutes of Spanish." Because even though my kids are responsible for preparing their own day-time meals (we do dinner as a family meal but the rest is free-ranging) they do invariably eat something that they would call lunch.

I find that sometimes there's a magic in revisiting a scheduling expectation that has unravelled and simply asking "Is this still something you want to do?" For instance, last fall my youngest said she wanted to do outdoor exercise with me three times a week. It was really tough to schedule, since there are so many variables in our lives that squeeze in, so while we initially tried "after breakfast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays" that regularity fell apart quickly and after that we just did our best to find windows for it. But she didn't seem enthusiastic, and after enduring a few weeks of declined invitations and moaning over being too tired or not liking how cold and wet it was or whatever I gave up. Then over the winter holidays I took some time to revisit her plans and ambitions for the year and we talked about that outdoor exercise thing. Surprisingly, she was very enthusiastic to delve into it again. She regretted having got out of the habit, and was excited about doing a lot more in the way of winter sports -- trying out XC skiing, getting out on the hill for some downhilling, building an igloo, skating, snowshoeing. We didn't end up changing anything about the original plan. She had just realized that despite her occasional lack of enthusiasm on any given day and during certain seasons, she did still really want to be active outdoors on a regular basis, and felt it was worth pushing herself a bit harder than she had.

Miranda
I totally understand the alarm thing. Honestly for me they don't work either but for my husband they work perfectly! I am more of a "right when I wake up" or "after the ____ meal" or "before I lay down to bed" schedule person too. My loose schedule is important to me because it helps me but I know that doesn't work for everyone. It really sounds like everyone in the discussion is pretty much on the same page. Helping to facilitate our children in learning to achieve their goal through time management skills is a good thing. A parent reminding their child is not too much different than having them set an alarm really. The child is getting a reminder. I don't think anyone subscribing to the un-schooling philosophy would advocate forcing a child to sit down and do something even if they expressed interest or asked for it at one time. We all know this is not the way for a child to learn. I also agree that goals and schedules should be revisited often.
 
#38 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

I'm not saying he's a bad dad, if that's the judgment you mean. I was *trying* to discuss this in general, but have been told, repeatedly, that my opinion is wrong! I'll take my opinion and go, then.
It really sounds like everyone in the discussion is pretty much on the same page when it comes to her original question even if we differ in who we "side" with as far as father or son. I think we all agree that we should facilitate our children in learning to achieve their goals through obtaining time management skills. We may have slightly different ways to facilitate but that is okay and necessary because we are all dealing with different children/families.
 
#39 ·
Such an interesting thread! Can I just say though that the comment "I see no issue with holding kids accountable and helping them (with out forcing them) to reach a goal that they have asked for help with. I do the exact same for my husband all the time!" has really clarified something for me. Now I do this. I scaffold for my kids all the time, I do the thing of making sure that they have what they need to do the thing they've said they want to do and asking if I can get them anything and so on. But I'm also studying, myself, a fairly difficult (for me!) degree which takes up pretty much nearly all of my kid-free time. Now if my partner were to start asking if he could help, if he could get me a drink and so on, before I'd sat down and got started, it would truly drive me up the wall, because, rightly or wrongly I'd interpret this as him trying to coerce me into studying. Which would be incredibly unfair on him because he'd literally be just wanting to make me a cup of tea and truly not caring in the slightest whether I was going to study or not, I think its just that learning, for some people, is an incredibly personal and quite private thing. (obviously not for everyone though, if it works for you then absolutely great)

So this thread has given me a load of food for thought. It obliquely reminds me of something John Holt wrote once-"a word to the wise is infuriating.".
 
#40 ·
Great thread!

I tend not to push things. Suggest and remind, yes; push - no.

Sometimes reminding over and over again can feel like nagging. When that happens I check in: do you want me to continue to remind you of xyz?

I also try to honour where they are right now. Simply because they said they wanted more math several weeks ago, does not necessarily mean I should impose it now. If DD said "I want to learn more math" on a Tuesday, and on a Wednesday I said "let's do math" and she did not want to as she was colouring, and on a Thursday she did not want to as she was playing a video game with her brother - am I supposed to make her? Isn't that placing a value judgment on activities - the math you mentioned earlier is more important that the stuff you are doing today?

I do think some kids lack discipline and know-how when it comes to meeting goals they know are good for them. Eventually their desire to meet their goals will be higher than their desire to do something else - which is when learning appropriate time and organisational management will kick in. Trying to do so before the kid is ready will result in some power struggles. Adults tend to see the big picture, so I think we can get a little frustrated and worried when we see them stuck at one developmental stage rather than moving into another. Patience for parents is often the order of the day!

I tend to talk out loud about my own time/organisational management issues as a way to role model project attack skills. With my older children (particularly my eldest) we will have brainstorming session - paper included, and make lists of what needs to be done to move from A-B. I prefer to help them figure out all the steps they need to do to complete a project instead of creating the steps for them.
 
#41 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post

Such an interesting thread! Can I just say though that the comment "I see no issue with holding kids accountable and helping them (with out forcing them) to reach a goal that they have asked for help with. I do the exact same for my husband all the time!" has really clarified something for me. Now I do this. I scaffold for my kids all the time, I do the thing of making sure that they have what they need to do the thing they've said they want to do and asking if I can get them anything and so on. But I'm also studying, myself, a fairly difficult (for me!) degree which takes up pretty much nearly all of my kid-free time. Now if my partner were to start asking if he could help, if he could get me a drink and so on, before I'd sat down and got started, it would truly drive me up the wall, because, rightly or wrongly I'd interpret this as him trying to coerce me into studying. Which would be incredibly unfair on him because he'd literally be just wanting to make me a cup of tea and truly not caring in the slightest whether I was going to study or not, I think its just that learning, for some people, is an incredibly personal and quite private thing. (obviously not for everyone though, if it works for you then absolutely great)
Now that you mention it, that is EXACTLY how I would feel towards DH (however irrationally)! Pressured, pushed, and kicked out of the driver's seat. Motivation drained. Granted, I think children need more help than adults, but it's definitely something to keep in mind with each child's personality and learning style. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Eventually their desire to meet their goals will be higher than their desire to do something else - which is when learning appropriate time and organisational management will kick in. Trying to do so before the kid is ready will result in some power struggles...

I tend to talk out loud about my own time/organisational management issues as a way to role model project attack skills. With my older children (particularly my eldest) we will have brainstorming session - paper included, and make lists of what needs to be done to move from A-B. I prefer to help them figure out all the steps they need to do to complete a project instead of creating the steps for them.
This is what I believe in. I think they may need some help brainstorming the "how" of time management (depending on age) and then need reminders/support, but I don't see why the organization shouldn't be just as child-led and child-entrusted as the choice of the pursuit. To me, that's simply congruous with unschooling philosophy. Here, they are learning time management - I'm not going to be any more aggressively involved than I would be in facilitating any other kind of learning.
 
#42 ·
You raise a good point about how I'd feel if my husband made the tea and set up my work space. Yes it would feel controlling. However, in my defense (because it was my example of what I might do for my child), my dd loves the whole business of sitting down at the kitchen table and "doing schoolwork" and likes me beside her to give feedback and just a sense of company. So when I get things all organized for us and make myslf available to her for that kind of focused time she appreciates it. It's also not something I'd do if I was anticipating resistance; I've just noticed that it helps her transition to know that I'm ready and everything is set up.

Miranda
 
#43 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

You raise a good point about how I'd feel if my husband made the tea and set up my work space. Yes it would feel controlling. However, in my defense (because it was my example of what I might do for my child), my dd loves the whole business of sitting down at the kitchen table and "doing schoolwork" and likes me beside her to give feedback and just a sense of company. So when I get things all organized for us and make myslf available to her for that kind of focused time she appreciates it. It's also not something I'd do if I was anticipating resistance; I've just noticed that it helps her transition to know that I'm ready and everything is set up.

Miranda
I thought of your line about setting up tea and inviting her to the table, and wondered if it was a little manipulative (or bribe-ish, carrot/stick thing…).

I have come to the conclusion that intent and reception are important.

If putting out tea is done to manipulate someone into doing something or reward someone for doing something, then it is problematic.

If putting out tea is just trying to create a nice environment to work in, that is fine. It helps to establish a positive mood. I crank up the music when I clean the house and do get myself a tea when I am doing unpleasant sit down chores (tax time!), there is nothing wrong with that.

I imagine kids can smell whether you are trying to manipulate them or just create a nice environment miles off.
 
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#44 ·
I stepped away from posting here, but we've been struggling with this lately (as my earlier posts show, I think) and I appreciate the thread.

Our situation is that my daughter wants quite badly to have done her math, but she never wants to do it. She has ambitions that require math, and she doesn't want to give those up, but she's also 12 and she procrastinates. I'm not comfortable with stepping back letting her not do the math and suffer the consequences, because I feel like that's foisting too much responsibility on her. If she were in school she wouldn't have to find the internal fortitude to do this all on her own.

We have discussed it, and hopefully have found a better plan. We talked about thinking of her math as something she has committed to do, and so on the days she does math, she's not doing it because I'm making her, or because she's choosing to, but because she's honoring her commitment. It seems to make it easier, so far. We'll see if this helps long term.

I think I may be out of step with many of you because my kids aspire to attending college, and also struggle with time management/motivation. I feel like if I don't help, their tendency to push off difficult/uncomfortable tasks (a part of ADD) could do them real harm, and addressing it is part of parenting the kind of kids I've got. Generally if I provide some structure and support, our house seems happier. I'm sure that if my kids were naturally driven to finish things and plan long term, all of this would seem absurd.

I haven't commented directly about the father in the story because I don't have any background about them and their family (Moominmama shared a little, but I still don't feel capable of judging them in any way). My one thought is that generally I think its good to look for ways to say yes when a kid asks for help. The father's answer seems a lot like "I didn't like it when people did that for me when I was a kid, so you don't get to know how you would feel about it" and that doesn't seem particularly unschooly to me.
 
#45 ·
None of what I post below is about you, as it sounds like you have a good plan for you and yours, and that you have come to this plan with much thought. That is all that really matters. My thought below are because your points are interesting and I love a good discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onatightrope View Post

Our situation is that my daughter wants quite badly to have done her math, but she never wants to do it. She has ambitions that require math, and she doesn't want to give those up, but she's also 12 and she procrastinates. I'm not comfortable with stepping back letting her not do the math and suffer the consequences, because I feel like that's foisting too much responsibility on her. If she were in school she wouldn't have to find the internal fortitude to do this all on her own.

I think this very much depends on the age of the child, and to a less extent, the school the child attends. My older children (age 14 and almost 17) do go to school - and the school is filled with people who either flunk a class or are screened into a lower class because they do not have the fortitude to power through something they would prefer to not be doing.

I think I may be out of step with many of you because my kids aspire to attending college, and also struggle with time management/motivation. Oh, I don't know about that. My older 2 do intend to pursue post secondary education, and one does struggle with time management and organisation. He struggle with motivation when it is not something he is interested in. I don't think that is 100% a bad thing (the motivation) it might just mean he has to pick and choose his classes and career with a fair bit of thought and knowing himself.
 
#46 ·
Ah moominmama, no, the tea/workspace thing is really coincidental-its a long thread and I think I hadn't read back to your original post in the session I was writing my reply. I was just giving the example of my partner making me tea or providing encouragement as something he might do, and entirely kindly and with absolutely no intention of coercing me into studying at all-but that I'd find personally difficult and counterproductive. But not because tea is being made! Think we just happened upon the same example, as something a third party might do in support- I really didn't have your post in mind when I was writing, though having read back I see why it might have given that impression. Apologies for that.

I was responding specifically to the poster who said that (and to that poster, sorry if I'm wrongly paraphrasing) it was ok to hold kids and adults accountable to their stated goals. Now my feeling, which comes from my feeling putting adults into the equation and I'm generalising out to kids, which seems right and fair-is that, actually, no I don't want anyone else holding me accountable for my goals. My goals are my goals. If people want to offer me help, and genuine help to reach them-and making me a cup of tea and so on, great-that is one thing. The issue is with the phrasing-"holding accountable for their goals". Help, IMO, needs to be something that can be freely refused, otherwise it is not help but something else.

I don't think it is at all manipulative at all to be setting up a workspace or making tea or anything, as long as the learner remains in control and knows that they can genuinely say no. I'm guessing that, actually, your daughter is probably able to say no if she doesn't want to work that day, and knows she can say no. In that situation, making tea and setting up a workspace is just a nice, kind, helpful thing to do. And it will depend so much on how it is done. There is a world of difference between making a cup of tea and setting up a workspace to lure a kid into studying, and doing it because you know that when they are through their own choice studying, they appreciate having something hot to drink and knowing where their pencils are.

I think, ultimately, it comes down to honesty. Were my husband to say, "You know, I want you to do that work now. I want us to have time together this evening. What can I do to help get you started? ", I'd be totally fine with that. (and he would and does say that). I might well say to him, "listen, I need to get myself studying every evening once the kids are in bed. Would you mind bringing me a cup of tea so it doesn't feel so lonely?". What I'd have problem with if if he did that without being asked and then, if intimated that I didn't appreciate it, he then continued to do so (once, fair enough, we all get things like this wrong!) . Or if he clearly was setting up the environment as some kind of hint to me that I ought to feel I should study (I feel I must make clear he would never do this!) .That would feel manipulative. As long as the lines of communication are open I truly don't think an issue is likely to arise. And fair enough, adults and kids are different and the relationship is different. Its just one way I keep a check for myself on whether the way I'm behaving toward these kids is vaguely respectful.
 
#48 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

I don't know about the rest of you, but sometimes I procrastinate without an external deadline. Even if it's something I want to be done. Sometimes it just takes the adrenaline rush of an immovable deadline to get the juices flowing.

Now, I'm off to make dinner, then I have a book to finish.
I agree, but for me, this is a problem. I don't want to only rush around cleaning when people are coming over or, as I did in college, knock out some giant paper in the wee hours of the morning. Because you know, that wasn't my best work. It was plenty "good enough" where grades were concerned, but I didn't put my heart and soul and time and energy into it. I think that, yes, deadlines can be effective for knocking things out, but not effective at all in terms of teaching time management or self-discipline. Because I won't be proactive - I won't say "this is happening in a week, so let's break it down into pieces and plan out the effort" - I will wait until the last minute and zoom through it.

So, I think that's one point on this thread - yes, things may be accomplished that way, but at what price? What opportunities for learning were lost along the way?

I also agree wholeheartedly with Fillyjonk - I don't want someone lording what I said I wanted to do over my head and pushing me. That takes the ownership and drive away from me. I want it to be my creation, my effort, on my terms. If my terms require some help or assistance, that's one thing. If that help or assistance takes the shape of someone taking more responsibility over it than I am giving myself, that's a shift that I'm uncomfortable with.

I don't object to it being thought of as a commitment, however. Over our lifetimes we make many such commitments - to volunteer work, for example. It adds a sincerity and maturity to the project - but it is still the child's project, and I wouldn't push, but would rather make observations and ask questions, evaluate why goals aren't being met, etc. together.
 
#49 ·
My point is this : if I, as an adult, sometimes (not all the time) need an external deadline, is it unreasonable for a child to have the same need. I think sometimes parents expect perfection from their children, even when they accept their own faults. It seems reasonable for a child to need help achieving a goal. Of course, if it's stressing the child or the parent-child relationship, then the situation needs to be reviewed, again.

No matter what is done, communication that involves really listening to the child is the key.
 
#50 ·
I've been thinking about this and trying to work out why its so irritating to have someone nagging me to do my work for my own good (as opposed to because they'd honestly like to see me once in a while-its totally fair in my book for someone to have complaints about something that impacts them)

its because if someone makes me do something for my own good, I've lost ownership and sovereignty over this project. If I ask for help-no matter what the level of help is, whether its proof reading an entire dissertation or making me a cup of tea, then I've retained control. I also need to have control over how to use this help. I need the freedom to say no.

Now its entirely possible that I'm hypersensitive to this for reasons of having been in school, and furthermore academically quite pushed (by school, not my relaxed parents-I was double grade skipped and so on). I think some schools can be marvellous places but what I come back to time and time again when tempted by the wonderful offerings of our local community school is that sense that ownership of ones own education is really, really important and I don't see how you can ever have that if you are being monitored and tested. Even with my studying as an adult-I have huge freedom, because even if I get a lousy grade, I can actually redo courses and so on. I do have the time to take the courses as slowly as I want, because I don't see me being able to do any serious work outside the home for another ten years. And yet I do get sad and see it as a reflection of my competence if I get a bad grade and get really happy if I get a good one. I'm pushing myself to finish up in the next year or two and go on to greater things ;-) . And that is NOT healthy for a grown adult, IMO.

I guess if you want to get philosophical, for me, it comes down to deciding who gets to put stuff in your head (that sounds more paranoid than it should!), and also, related, to the idea that learning is for the long haul so I really don't want my kids put off it right at the start.

I have to say that its more important to me personally that a child learns to ask for help and to manage a project than pretty much any project they might need to complete at the ages of my kids (my oldest is 9). I honestly can't think of anything which, ultimately, as a homeschooling family, they need to be able to manage to completion-they have time to learn.
 
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#51 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post

I' If I ask for help-no matter what the level of help is, whether its proof reading an entire dissertation or making me a cup of tea, then I've retained control. I also need to have control over how to use this help. I need the freedom to say no.
I can relate to this, both in how I think about my own work and in how I think about supporting my son with his projects. I sometimes need an external reason to finish something-- for example, I have a new book coming out this month that I struggled with- a lot. I ended up asking my editor to give me a deadline... which I met, because I truly hate being late for anything! I'm pleased with the book, and because the deadline was one I requested, I felt I had control rather than having an unwanted expectation imposed on me.

My son has a high need for autonomy, so I am careful to respect and work with that. He is a persistent, determined person who works very hard at figuring out problems when he is curious or invested. Freedom to say no is crucial for us both. As my son gets older, I hope he will be able to identify if/when he needs more structure or support to meet his goals, and that he will be able to find ways to get this for himself or ask for help to find it. I know I sometimes have taken classes (Spanish, pottery, exercise) partly for the instruction, but just as much to ensure that I set aside the time for something I want to do. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to give up the freedom to decide to drop a class if it doesn't suit me-- and I wouldn't insist that my son stick with one either.
 
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