Unschooling Guru Scandal? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 38 Old 08-23-2013, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I can see how SD might have good intentions in keeping easily scammed parents safe from DM with this stuff. And I understand her desire to be dis-associated from DM's claims regarding her. I guess it's just a tricky situation since neither can justifiably make legal claims against the other. I would hate to be in SD's shoes right now. I think we all just need to let people be responsible for who we choose to bring I to our homes and lives- especially those requesting our money. We need to practice due diligence, of course, for ourselves and families. This means vetting and checking credentials of people like DM. It also means speaking up when we are personally involved by name. But a FB page (which i havent seen) is probably a bit much, inviting a shitstorm of bad mouthing and gossip all around.
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#32 of 38 Old 08-24-2013, 10:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post

I think there is a whole hornets nest of legal issues involved in all of this, especially the facebook page and some of the blog posts. 

I think US law might be quite different from GB on this.  I did do some research, and unless the statements made are "knowingly false" (with an attempt to defame someone), they cannot be prosecuted, and difficult even if so.  Also, apparently there is also some leeway given in internet cases where the accuser is essentially anonymous or accusations are off-the-cuff.

 

However, that does not answer to ethical considerations here, which are something of a hornets' nest for sure.


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#33 of 38 Old 08-24-2013, 12:04 PM
 
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Regardless of whether or not they would win, I think there is certainly a possibility the participants in the FB group could be sued, and that being sued could be an enormous financial and emotional burden. 

 

I wouldn't touch that group with a ten foot pole, personally. 

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#34 of 38 Old 08-24-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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Hi sweetsilver. Yes uk and us defamation law differs, but not by that much. Defamation is defamation, and because its civil law it is basically about making good, usually financially. in some ways I would see the difference as coming down to just that what you have to prove for redress differs. (I am ignoring criminal libel because its scarcely a thing afaik anywhere these days). One big difference is that, in the US, you have to show both that a false statement was made and that this was intentionally defamatory, whereas you do not need to show intent in the UK-so in other words, in the US , as you say, it needs to be knowingly false, in the UK it just needs to be false. Uk citizens can be extradited to the US for criminal trial and of course we can be prosecuted using US civil law anyway (criminal libel prosecutions are rare, iirc, but I think posible in most states). Like many legally trained and / or interested UK citizens I have a basic interest in US law because it can be used- and is used, regularly- to prosecute people in my country.

Apologies for typos-trying to type on an ipad and not impressed!

I don't want to sidetrack this here, and of course it depends which state laws are used as i understand defamation law is not federal, but it does seem to me that they are sailing close to the wind. One simple example - I would say that if DM is able to show clear loss to her business as a result of any statement she can demonstate to be false (as opposed to an opinion, say) then she could have a case. Thats under US law, obviously. If we were in the UK, Mothering would already have pulled this thread because BBS can be held liable for content here.

Oh and eta, one thing i don't know is whether the us offers legal assistance for defamation but i would guess not. And it is expensive to bring a defamation case-well it is here.

What I would totally agree with is that the real issues here are ethical, not

Sorry eta2. My understanding of the situation regarding internets is that that protects the host. So facebook will not be held accountable. SD also will possibly not be held accountable for information she did not propagate or introduce. But so long as she can be identified, nothing afaik stops any person who can be identified being prosecuted. Like i say that is my understanding of US law-in the UK this conversation would not even be happening.

Oh and yes-agree, its not about whether either side would win ultimately. Going through a legal case, even as a plaintiff, is awful for most people ime.

What I would totally, totally agree with is that the real issues here are not legal but ethical. The only problem I have with this becoming legal is that its more bad publicity. But I think the real issue here is that this is an awful way to carry on, on both sides, and I can't see how this can ultimately benefit or enrich any person involved.

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#35 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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Hi I haven't read all of this and I am not interested in getting aware of the issue at hand but still (!) I have a comment that I think is relevant to this discussion.  It is something I heard at "the homeschool conference" (which was a free / online conference this past wknd).    Pat Farenga delivered the keynote and he said that someone was talking to John Holt about something they had chosen to do  and that involved going to school and said something to the effect that they were afraid that they were letting the cause down.  John Holt replied that unschooling was not a cause.  He was not about causes, but about children. 

 

I know how it feels to be very attached to unschooling and to be annoyed when no one else gets it just quite the way I do (present company excepted). 

 

But I liked that sentiment and I am going to keep it in mind. 


no longer momsling.GIF or ecbaby2.gif orfly-by-nursing1.gif ... dd is going on 10 (!) how was I to know there was a homeschool going on?

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#36 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 01:09 PM
 
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Rumi I have been thinking of that quote too-have heard it before-and I really, really agree. I was hesitating to post it and I am really glad you did :-)

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#37 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 03:34 PM
 
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Drama!  Bookmarking to read later.  Internet drama is polarising and a sign of the times.  USing draws some passionate people.  I am not surprised.

 

I have never really loved any of the USing leaders (and don't know very much about them - I guess I am prejudging a little) - mostly because they seemed a bit too child-centric for my tastes.  I don't believe we should become servants to our children, and some US leaders seemed to espouse this.  I hope that is ok to say here.  I do self identify as an USer; it is just an issue I have with some vocal online US "leaders."  

seaheroine likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#38 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 10:17 AM
 
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I went to the link in the OP and I have mixed feelings about it.  I have not been to the facebook page yet - maybe (ok - probably) later.

 

The link the Op posted seems to mostly be filled with USers ranting about how they feel betrayed bu RU.

 

I get that RU, particularly taken to an extreme (which is sort of the nature of RU) can have a lot of issues.  OTOH, I think there are some positives to RU, and it has done a lot of good in terms of helping parents thoughtfully consider why they are asking kids to do things - and if that is appropriate or just a cultural expectation/construct that may or may not work for the family.

 

I does not seem like a very balanced page to me, given its negativity, and I am unlikely to visit it again.  I have no issues with it existing if parents want a place to vent, though.  I don't have a lot of patience with parents who blame an "ism" for their choices. 

 

A number of years ago, USing was typically presented by USers on the Internet as sunshine and lollipops.  It seems odd that the website in the Op is so negative - maybe it is a pendulum thing?  Maybe it is part of an overall negative Internet vibe, particularly with regard to Facebook (I am seeing lots of negativity on the Internet these days - anyone else?  thoughts?) and the link in the OP is caught up in that ?  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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