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#1 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was just meandering around Pinterest when this caught my attention:

http://thelivingfreeproject.com/the-real-price-of-radical-unschool-gurus-a-real-time-story/

Whoa! I am not on Facebook, nor interested in re-joining, but am VERY curious about where Sandra Dodd fits into this Dayna Martin scandal.

Personally, I've never been very interested in DM, as something about her vast media presence screamed inauthenticity. Not in any way a personal attack toward her, as I never read her book or watched her TV stuff. The mere presence of all that gave me pause. But I have looked to Sandra's writing many times and enjoyed it thoroughly. The very notion that she would start a FB group for people to share their negative DM experiences says theat either:
A.) I totally misjudged Sandra
Or
B.) My intuition about DM was pretty accurate.

Obviously, it would be unacceptable to quote the Facebook content here, but is anyone interested in sharing their feelings about what they read there? I don't know how to ask about it without seeming like a snoop or a gossip. And if this seems to be such, feel free to kindly put me in my place. I am just very interested in discussing it.

Cheers!
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#2 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 08:08 AM
 
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What a mess.  

 

I think the FB page is over the top.  Really?  

 

Sigh.... I don't really pay attention to either of them.  Just popped into the circus tent for a minute.  


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
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#3 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 08:13 AM
 
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I read a bit of that stuff a couple of weeks back. I honestly hadn't had anything more than a vague passing awareness of either woman. I was left shaking my head over internet culture more than anything. I don't understand the need for "leaders of the unschooling movement." We should just focus on doing what's good and right for ourselves and our own children, not what's right for others. Why do people want to flock to a cult of personality? To feel as if someone out there on the internet has all the answers for them? I enjoy internet unschooling communities like this one as places to discuss ideas and share experiences -- but I look to myself and my family to set the tone and direction of what we do, not to others. When we start looking to others for answers, rather than thinking for ourselves and looking within ourselves and our own families with our own ideas and intuition, we're granting those others too much power and fame.

 

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#4 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 09:00 AM
 
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Ick.

 

It has always bothered me that people strive to leaders of the unschooling movement. I thought it was supposed to be child/interest led. I'm also not a fan of parents involving their kids in their quest for fame. I don't trust SD to always treat people kindly, but I distrust DMs motives. I've always liked that this forum is not dominated by either of them.
 

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#5 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow! Right after I posted this, I managed to find the stuff on Sandra's site. It's all irrelevant to me, too. Not concerning myself with their drama. I was basically fishing to see if there was anything worth knowing under it all.

I like to learn from experiences of others when it is useful. Otherwise, I prefer our own scientific approaches of figuring things out for ourselves.
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#6 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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I do like that this forum is a space free from any gurus. Like any forum there are posters with more experience in one area or the other, older kids, experience of additional needs, experience of particular educational methods and so on...but that to me is healthy. Sometimes posters I didn't even realise had expertise or experience turn out to be great mines of information and sometimes-often-new posters write the most thought provoking responses.

To me, at a really fundamental level, unschooling for me is all about having the courage and awareness and autonomy to follow your own star and tbh, every problem I have seen in this battle of the gurus is what I have seen in any struggle between two egotistical leaders who want followers.
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#7 of 38 Old 08-14-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, that!

I think what drew me was a sudden fear of discovering that a new policy was sweeping the land denying unschooled kids post-secondary education, or some such nonsense. I worry about that a lot- that my kids will get nearer college aged and suddenly have major opportunities revoked.

So, thank goodness it was just guru drama. smile.gif
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#8 of 38 Old 08-16-2013, 09:45 AM
 
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Exactly! Unschooling needs no leaders! 


Sandra Dodd is only gathering all the information and documenting because Dayna's plagiarism has been going for so long.

 Sandra is the first one to tell you not to follow anyone. 

 

I have met Sandra is person and she is not only honest and trustworthy but very nice and helpful. She has been saving unschooling ideas from many other unschooling parents on her site to help others for free. She wants parents to get good information and  make their decisions and not follow someone blindly,  specially someone selling you snake oil.

http://sandradodd.com/problems/daynamartin/plagiarism

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone is interested in accounts from several respected parents involved with unschooling and attachment/natural  parenting.

 

 

"Live your life in such a way that other people will trust you. When you make decisions, make generous, selfless decisions so that others benefit. When you say something, do your best to say what is fair and right and true. When you write, write things you don't mind people taking out and sharing. 

A person is only trustworthy if he has earned trust, if he is worthy of being trusted."
 

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#9 of 38 Old 08-16-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That is beautiful! I should add it to my collection of quotations. Thanks!
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#10 of 38 Old 08-16-2013, 03:58 PM
 
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Lots more wonderful quotes about unschooling and living joyfully here( from Sandra Dodd and many others here:

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/  ( you can sign up to receive them daily)

 

and here:

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/unschoolquotearama/?ref=br_tf  ( you can add quotes if you have a great one!)

 

 

Alex

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#11 of 38 Old 08-16-2013, 11:50 PM
 
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Eeek. Polykow - know you mean well but can I gently suggest we keep from taking sides on this?

To my mind, and from what little I know of both women and this drama and also how both women have conducted themselves in the past, there are criticisms that can be made of both sides. There is no innocent persecuted party. There IS a bit of a witchhunt in progress and the only debate seems to be whether its justified. Personally, I think they are both behaving absolutely awfully.


i really really don't want to side track this but i do feel that while Sandra Dodd is undoubtedly great at posting inspirational quotes, the way I have seen her conduct herself on fora and on that anti-DM fb group is inconstant
with that, to my mind. She will defend her own, very specific views in a way that is to my mind vicious, unnecessary, and inappropriate inq the context. Also, she is has never before had a problem with her followers seeing her as a guru. This is a fight - one that from what I can see has been going on for years, actually -between two peoples egos and between their loyal followers and I really, really hope it can stay off here.

There is a simple way out of this to my,mind. Just dont have gurus, either of them. Think for yorself.

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#12 of 38 Old 08-17-2013, 09:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post

Eeek. Polykow - know you mean well but can I gently suggest we keep from taking sides on this?

To my mind, and from what little I know of both women and this drama and also how both women have conducted themselves in the past, there are criticisms that can be made of both sides. There is no innocent persecuted party. There IS a bit of a witchhunt in progress and the only debate seems to be whether its justified. Personally, I think they are both behaving absolutely awfully.


i really really don't want to side track this but i do feel that while Sandra Dodd is undoubtedly great at posting inspirational quotes, the way I have seen her conduct herself on fora and on that anti-DM fb group is inconstant
with that, to my mind. She will defend her own, very specific views in a way that is to my mind vicious, unnecessary, and inappropriate inq the context. Also, she is has never before had a problem with her followers seeing her as a guru. This is a fight - one that from what I can see has been going on for years, actually -between two peoples egos and between their loyal followers and I really, really hope it can stay off here.

There is a simple way out of this to my,mind. Just dont have gurus, either of them. Think for yorself.

 If you do not want to take sides that is up to you.
I will take whatever side I want.  :)

 


I will take the side of honesty and not the side of someone dishonesty that has been dishing out lies for years. I have been unschooling since before Dayna Martin showed up in the Unschooling circles. I have met her and her family in person. I have hosted Sandra Dodd in my house. I can tell you what kind of person she is and how honest and trustworthy she is. 

 

If you have not checked out the links the problems with Dayna have been going on for years.  This is not a recent thing. If you think Sandra like sand needs followers it just shows you really do not know her at all. 


This is NOT a fight between 2 people as much as Dayna would love others to think. She has been creating this US versus Sandra Dodd for years. It is  NOT a fight between followers. All those people that wrote blogs talking about Dayna Martin are definitely not Sandra Dodd's followers.

I totally agree with your last phrase. Think for yourselves. I have. I have been involved in unschooling and unschooling my children for years. Follow your children, think about learning and how it happens.

 

Alex

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#13 of 38 Old 08-17-2013, 10:02 AM
 
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Alex/Polykow.

Of course you must take whichever side you want, and that is entirely up to you. I am on neither side and was rather pointing out that Sandra Dodd has also not behaved terribly well. certainly if one of my friends behaved the way either of them has done I would be unimpressed.

All I am suggesting is that this be kept off here. There are plenty of places to talk about this. I don't see any need for it on here. It is a fight between two people, and its getting out of hand.

What is becoming abundantly clear is that different people have different, very strong, opinions of both women. That's fine. I said before that no one should use gurus but actually that is harsh. As long as you remain critical, as long as they are a guide and a mentor and an inspiration,, a guru can be a great thing, as an addition to your own thinking. John Holt is something like that for me. I could not have as a mentor someone who behaved as either of these two have done, but its not for me to decide what should inspire others.

I do feel that is is primarily vicious and malicious and unnecessary on both sides. A facebook group? A timeline? Testimonials? Really, this is coming from healthy people? I don't think so. I am surprised that anyone else feels the need to involve themselves in what is basically a silly argument between two writers, that has been blown out of all proportion by both them and their followers. I don't think any new spaces need to be opened up to discuss this.

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#14 of 38 Old 08-17-2013, 11:43 AM
 
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I totally agree with Fillyjonk on this one. Take whatever sides you like. Believe whatever you want. Like whomever you like. But I don't think this board is somewhere that needs a debate on who is right, whose stance has merit, who has behaved better. None of that is relevant to the mandate and tenor of this board.

 

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#15 of 38 Old 08-17-2013, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, sorry I brought it up. Initially it seemed to be something deeper. I thought perhaps the FB page had something meaningful that might somehow affect a greater area of unschooling/unschoolers. I quickly realized it was more about personal issues between those two and the others who were/felt victimized. It's completely irrelevant to unschooling in general. My mistake. Carry on about your unschooling lives. smile.gif
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#16 of 38 Old 08-17-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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I've read a little on it, but mostly I'm ignoring it. It's not my problem and I just hope it will quietly go away so that nobody gets the wrong idea about us unschoolers.

I think everyone knows that Sandra is BLUNT as all hell....but she's not trying to gloss that over and pretend she isn't. That's just how she is and I can respect that being a blunt person myself. Meanwhile I wish Dayna wouldn't go out and put herself in the media because the attention is never good.
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#17 of 38 Old 08-18-2013, 01:07 PM
 
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And I am pointing out that your statement that this is a war between two people and two writers is wrong.

Sorry.

 

You do not have to like Sandra Dodd at all but you are making judgement and coming to a conclusion that is incorrect.

 

I also agree that here is no place to talk about that or discuss it. The time here is better spend talking about unschooling and sharing what is working for you and your family and what is not and helping others that have questions.

 

I am just curious to know how has Sandra Dodd behaved terribly that you can compare to how Dayna Martin has been doing for years? 

 

Yes I have watched people get all upset with her and leave in a hurry  and not one time I have seen Sandra be this horrible person or , worse, dishonest.

 

If you are not interested on what is really going on that is fine. It is more important for an unschooling mom to be with their kids and be paying attention to them and not this kind of negative things. It is better to focus on your family, learning and living joyfully.

 

But I do think that if a person is going to judge something and come to conclusion and share them on a public forum that she/he do so after being well informed and researching on it and having said that I  am all for you not wanting to even know, but I do take offense on you saying this is a personal war between them and that Sandra has "behaved horribly" just as Dayna has.

 

Alex

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#18 of 38 Old 08-18-2013, 01:12 PM
 
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See but it is NOT about personal issues and it is about many unschoolers and not only unschoolers.
There has been misinterpretation not only about her credentials in several different areas including Attachment parenting, birth education , raw foodism and others  and several instances of plagiarism of several authors from all those topics above.

 

If people are new to unschooling, raw foodism, birth, attachment parent, breastfeeding and more and they are going to take their advice from someone who has been dishonest, has plagiarized, lied and misinterpreted her credentials, I think it is good that there is a place to check that out before you hand our your money to them ( which many people have and can tell the story if you are interested).

 

If someone is scamming parents would you not like to know?

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#19 of 38 Old 08-18-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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Yes SpiderMum and that is one of my worries. That Dayna has been going to the media and wanting to be famous and many unschoolers fear what this will do to them as a result , not just me .

 

Alex

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#20 of 38 Old 08-18-2013, 02:33 PM
 
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 Laurette Lynn has some good thoughts here and this is the last I will post on the subject as I agree that this forum should not focus on this but people should be aware.

Going to be with my children:

 

http://laurettelynn.blogspot.com/2013/08/are-we-still-on-this-just-little-bit.html#more

 

Alex

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#21 of 38 Old 08-18-2013, 04:14 PM
 
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If I was new to unscooling and saw Sandra Dodd's FB page and none of her other writings, I would be incredibly wary (and I did take time to peruse it).  I know very little of either, but when someone sets up a FB page for the sole purpose of discrediting another, I lose interest in anything else they might have to say.  It is yet another poor reflection of unschooling to the public, however much current unschoolers might take one side or another, or refuse to take either.  That's crossing a line that I would not tolerate with someone I knew personally.

 

In this thread are the first set of argumentative posts I've seen on this board in months.  Let Sandra Dodd and Dayna Martin create their own respect or dig their own graves.  Let's not create arguments here on their behalf.


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#22 of 38 Old 08-19-2013, 01:28 AM
 
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Mama Amie, just to say no worries for bringing it up, as you say there might have been something serious going on under it all, like a law change or similar. It can be hard to tell ROTFLMAO.gif.

 

FWIW, to explain, my own hackles are not being raised just by there being controversy or debate here. We've had some great debates on here! Although it had its meta-debate moments,I remember the one on Project Based Homeschooling as being an especially good one, for example, where people took very opposing sides but, generally, it was possible to keep it civil and, certainly, I came away with a much better understanding of an approach I'd previously not thought could work for us. Can't remember if you were involved but look it up if not if its something that might interest you. 

 

I'd say that there are very specific issues here, unschooler politics. And that is why, certainly, I want to keep it off here. I've been around the unschooling community, including the Radical wing, for around eight years now and I've seen this stuff come and go repeatedly in that time. In my country also. Always looks like this, like two high school cliques squabbling over two queen bees. Never ends well. 

 

To Polykow, all I'd say is, please, stop trying to interest me-us-in this. Please. I truly don't much care. To my mind there are many, many more worthy causes that could benefit from this energy and that's where I'll be putting mine, as soon as I have some spare. I don't want any involvement either way. My initial comments on Sandra Dodd were specific to the quote you posted by her, not this daft squabble.


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#23 of 38 Old 08-19-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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...when someone sets up a FB page for the sole purpose of discrediting another, I lose interest in anything else they might have to say.  

 

I'm familiar with both women, having followed DM's podcasts and blogs a few years ago and of course everyone knows SD. I was completely unaware of this "war" but I have to agree with SweetSilver. 

 

The noblest way to deal with someone trying to slam you is to ignore them. It's not like SD stands to lose money or a company reputation by whatever-it-is that DM is supposedly doing. 

 

Sounds like a couple of personalities clashed and they decided to take it public. I feel very sad that they are both going through this, but I am also extremely unimpressed that they chose to deal with their differences via a publicity war.

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#24 of 38 Old 08-20-2013, 07:26 AM
 
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I think the clearinghouse has merit and it's more than just an attempt to slam someone.

 

If someone is out there plagiarizing, selling a false bill of goods, setting up conferences and then refusing to refund money when the line up changes (after saying she would), offering a service where she goes to your house and then showing up and acting extremely unprofessionally and harmfully to your children...  well, then I think that information should be out there.  *I* would want to know this stuff before I bought a book or paid her to come to my home or signed up for one of her conventions. 

 

The problem is, I guess, that many of the people in that group are pretty angry so it does devolve into pettiness.  The meat of the group is worthwhile knowledge, though.  There is no Better Business Bureau for this stuff. 

 

(I am not a fan/follower/anything of Dodd, Martin or anyone involved.  I feel for everyone involved - the family D visited and D herself who seemed to be going through a really hard time/breakdown.)
 


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#25 of 38 Old 08-21-2013, 07:48 PM
 
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I think the clearinghouse has merit and it's more than just an attempt to slam someone.

 

If someone is out there plagiarizing, selling a false bill of goods, setting up conferences and then refusing to refund money when the line up changes (after saying she would), offering a service where she goes to your house and then showing up and acting extremely unprofessionally and harmfully to your children...  well, then I think that information should be out there.  *I* would want to know this stuff before I bought a book or paid her to come to my home or signed up for one of her conventions. 

 

The problem is, I guess, that many of the people in that group are pretty angry so it does devolve into pettiness.  The meat of the group is worthwhile knowledge, though.  There is no Better Business Bureau for this stuff. 

 

(I am not a fan/follower/anything of Dodd, Martin or anyone involved.  I feel for everyone involved - the family D visited and D herself who seemed to be going through a really hard time/breakdown.)
 

And that was exactly what I was trying to convey and I do not know why someone would think after what I wrote about the time in this list being better spend in other subjects, that I wanted to get people involved or interested in all that.
 

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#26 of 38 Old 08-22-2013, 11:57 PM
 
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Have been watching this quietly over the last few weeks.

 

At first I thought Sandra's FB page was a bit much too, even being a long-time fan of hers, but now I am in complete agreement. It would have been too much if the Martins were merely obnoxious and vocal kooks, which I've believed for many years is precisely what they are. There will always be kooks and there's no reason to create drama to expose a kook's kookiness.

 

Once it became clear that fraud, plagiarism, and potentially criminal activities were involved, however, my mind changed instantly about Sandra's and others' choice to publicly investigate and expose the Martins. Certainly there may be an element of shaming, publicly putting distance between SD and other unschoolers and the Martins, and warning would-be followers away from the Martin family, but it's about so much more at this point. It's about exposing a person/family that has lied, cheated, stolen the work of others for profit, that has thoroughly screwed other people over and over again, and about presenting clear and irrefutable evidence of these activities so that the Martins cannot back out of it or cover it up like they have in the past.

 

Exposing people for what they are is never a pleasant or drama-free business but all unschoolers are better off in the end without the Martins, even if it causes some problems in the community for a while.


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#27 of 38 Old 08-23-2013, 07:49 AM
 
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Once it became clear that fraud, plagiarism, and potentially criminal activities were involved, however, my mind changed instantly about Sandra's and others' choice to publicly investigate and expose the Martins. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there were certain legal rules surrounding publicly accusing someone of illegal activities?


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#28 of 38 Old 08-23-2013, 09:59 AM
 
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there were certain legal rules surrounding publicly accusing someone of illegal activities?

What do you mean??

If someone committed a crime you can accuse them. There are no rules. You may have consequences if you accuse someone of  a crime they did not commit as they can sue you but that is clearly not the case here.

There are also consequences if someone is going around defaming you with lies and claims that are untrue. Also not the case. Everything is documented  and out for anyone to see.

 

There are Websites like Ezzo.Info to imform people about the horrible practices recommended in his book. Those are good. They help parents not follow not only bad but dangerous advice. Would you like to follow advice of someone who clearly lied about credentials  and worse?

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#29 of 38 Old 08-23-2013, 10:11 AM
 
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Thanks for the correction, and though you weren't sure, you clearly guessed the intent of my question.  

 

It was an genuine question, and not an attempt to goad further argument.


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#30 of 38 Old 08-23-2013, 02:33 PM
 
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I think there is a whole hornets nest of legal issues involved in all of this, especially the facebook page and some of the blog posts. 


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
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