Is unschooling really a good idea? - Page 13 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#361 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 05:28 PM
 
eminer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
The overly Eurocentric nature of the history taught in most American schools is, in my mind, an excellent reason to make a formal study of world history.
Can you share a bit about what a systematic study of world history would look like, for you? Obviously, there is quite a lot of history out there, and a lot more "pre"- or oral history, with distinct and intersecting chronologies. What principles would you use to select material for your curriculum? What alternative value judgments (that is, instead of, say, "'western' history is the basis for 'our' culture") would you consider more justified?

I raise these questions because this is the sort of problem that helps convince me that unschooling is a good idea. In a post-modern world, not only the idea of systematic curricula but also the ideas to be included seem to break down somewhat...

Oye Yemaya oloto
eminer is offline  
#362 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 06:11 PM
 
flyingspaghettimama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar
Would you gently suggest that your child brush her teeth? Is there a way you could share the information about the importance of toothbrushing without leading to her being traumatized in some way by your weilding of power?

Nooooo! Not the toothbrushing example! Please, anything but that.

Ahem. I know you're new and all that, but may I suggest you go to Gentle Discipline and take a gander at the archives. You will learn far, far more than you ever wanted to about noncoercion and toothbrushing. Also, many other straw men regarding noncoercive childrearing, see : "Tall Buildings, Jumping Off Of;" "Whippets, Doing;" and "Bottle Caps, Children Eating Nothing But."

I guess now we can add, "Playboy, Learning From."
flyingspaghettimama is offline  
#363 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 06:41 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar
But, you do have an agenda. You'd prefer she was happy and had a place to live than if she was a homeless crack addict.
No, I didn't. Again, you attempt to put words in my mouth. Here's what I really said.
Quote:
I want her to be happy and fulfilled. I don't believe that she'll find happiness as a serial murderer or a homeless person, because I don't think many people like that are truly happy. I really am pretty flexible, though. My little brother found happiness in the Air Force, which is so not what I would have chosen for him. Next to Rain, I love him more than anyone in the world... and although I'm not a big military supporter, I'm glad he's found a place in the world where he can be fulfilled and happy.
To paraphrase: my only agenda is that she's happy and fullfilled. I don't expect her to find happiness or fulfillment as a murderer or a crack addict, because I don't think they're generally happy people, but I have seen people find happiness inways I never would have expected.

I suppose you could consider being happy and fulfilled to be an agenda, but it's an extremely broad one, and it's an agenda my daughter wholeheartedly shares for herself.


Quote:
How will you, or do you, handle allowing your child into learning situations with other people? Will she be allowed to work with an adult mentor or a neighbor or another child? Do you fear she will fall subject to their influence and forget her own desires in order to please them? Is the process totally different with other people than it is with parents in your opinion?
Rain has always spent lots of time with other people. As an unschooler, everything is learning, so I'm not really comfortable categorizing situations as learning or not-learning. The thing is, other people don't have the same power over a child as parents do. She can quit soccer, or come home from a friend's house, all with a simple phone call to me and a "See ya". She can't quit being my daughter, though. That's permanent.

Pleasing or not pleasing other people in her life are choices she can make freely. She really adored her ballet teacher last fall and spring, and a compliment from him made her day. She respected his knowledge and expertise and knew that his compliments weren't given lightly. She freely chose to get involved in ballet, and to take classes from him, and to attempt to do what he asked to the best of her ability, knowing this about him. I think that's wonderful...

I think she's pretty careful about whose opinions she allows to matter to her, and the people she's chosen have rarely let her down. She wants honest feedback from these people, positive or negative. She doesn't always follow their advice, but she often does, and she always considers it seriously.

dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#364 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 06:43 PM
Dar
 
Dar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 11,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Nooooo! Not the toothbrushing example! Please, anything but that.


Quote:
Also, many other straw men regarding noncoercive childrearing, see : "Tall Buildings, Jumping Off Of;" "Whippets, Doing;" and "Bottle Caps, Children Eating Nothing But."

I guess now we can add, "Playboy, Learning From."
Ooo, and becoming a homeless serial murderer...

dar

 
fambedsingle1.gifSingle mom to Rain (1/93) , grad student, and world traveler earth.gif


  

Dar is offline  
#365 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 07:45 PM
 
flyingspaghettimama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Ooo, and becoming a homeless serial murderer...

dar
shouldn't there some crack addiction in there as well? maybe an appearance on montel? don't avoid facing your daughter's future, dar.
flyingspaghettimama is offline  
#366 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 10:22 PM
 
dharmamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Bywater, West Farthing
Posts: 4,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
those cool Royal Diary historical novels,
I just looked at these on Amazon. suh-WEET!! I had never heard of them before, but they have ones about African and Hatian princesses!

Namaste!
dharmamama is offline  
#367 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 10:29 PM
 
obiandelismom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar


Ooo, and becoming a homeless serial murderer...

dar
Ohh oohh - and don't forget "Street, Running into"! :
obiandelismom is offline  
#368 of 591 Old 07-19-2006, 11:56 PM
 
Linda on the move's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: basking in the sunshine
Posts: 10,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
Of course things just come up, and children will be interested in them, but why must that necessarily conflict with learning history in order?
Actually, we are trying to study history in order and frankly, it does conflict. There are so many things that just come up and that my kids are really interested in, it doesn't leave much time for my nice little plan. As I see it, their interests as FAR more important than my nice little plan, so I ditch my plan. I like my nice little plan, and occasional we work on it.

I'm just curious how old your kids are and how much they bring to the table, so to speak. Is this just a great idea you have for the future or is this your day to day life? It is hard for me to imagine kids as old as mine (8 and 9)getting books from the library, listening to the news, watching the history channel, seeing the kind of books my DH and I read, and not have lots of things they want to discuss.

May be this is one of the issues that affects where one falls on the structured homeschooling/unschooling continuum. What do you do with your plan when your kids have something they want to talk about?
Quote:
enough so that when my child encounters a picture of the Wright Brothers, for example, he doesn't try to place them in the 1980's.
My kids have never "studied" the Wright Brothers, but they would place them somewhere between the Civil War and WWII. They have picked up enough about those wars to know that there were no airplanes in the Civil War, and airplanes where a huge deal in WWII. They also know the years of those wars. Oddly, we've never studied either of those wars but they just come up.

Quote:
I just want a more clear understanding of the timeline than the one I got as a child who wasn't terribly interested in history but was interested in current events. Yes, I did learn about Locke when I was 11, but I *still* can't tell you what else was going on in the world when he was writing.
In spite of, or may be because of, our relaxed attitude toward history, my kids are gradually developing a good mental timeline and discovering for themselves which things were happening at the same time. They add painters, writers, etc. to their books of the centuries. Because they are adding things to different sections of their books, they are reviewing the things things they've added previously. If we were just working straight though, they wouldn't be giving themselves that same kind of review.

Personally, I think that any time I find myself wanting to make sure my kids learn something because I never did I'm on a slippery slope. If it is so important, then I need to make it a priority to learn it myself. I think that I'm teaching my kids a great deal more by learning the things I want to know than my forcing them to learn things they are not interested in.

But then again, I believe that education is the kindling of a fire, not the filling of a bucket. I'm more concerned that they become life long learners than that they memorize certain facts now.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

Linda on the move is online now  
#369 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:05 AM
 
flyingspaghettimama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Linda, what an interesting post! And it sort of gave me an idea - what if we had a timeline of sorts on the wall, and just added things that we'd run into or read about or heard about? I think I actually saw a blank one at a homeschool resource fair I went to a little while ago...
flyingspaghettimama is offline  
#370 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:30 AM
 
pookel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Catching more flies with honey
Posts: 3,899
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Linda, what an interesting post! And it sort of gave me an idea - what if we had a timeline of sorts on the wall, and just added things that we'd run into or read about or heard about? I think I actually saw a blank one at a homeschool resource fair I went to a little while ago...
You know that idea actually comes from TWTM ...
pookel is offline  
#371 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:47 AM
 
flyingspaghettimama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
You know that idea actually comes from TWTM ...
my fox pause! I didn't remember!

how does filling in a timeline based on the children's own interests mesh with the parent-directed learning usually seen in twtm? Can you go totally child-directed?
flyingspaghettimama is offline  
#372 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 01:18 AM
 
pookel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Catching more flies with honey
Posts: 3,899
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
how does filling in a timeline based on the children's own interests mesh with the parent-directed learning usually seen in twtm? Can you go totally child-directed?
Btw, I think that the timeline idea was my #1 favorite thing out of WTM.

Anyway, I don't remember exactly what they say ... but I think it's something along the lines of "parent suggests certain events to put on timeline in correlation with what's being studied, and kids add other events whenever they find something interesting." I guess the idea of having a timeline that fills up a whole wall is that there's enough room for everyone's interests to go into it. But it seems to me that it's something that would work pretty well for just about any philosophy. (Unless you have kids who hate timelines or something. )
pookel is offline  
#373 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 01:21 AM
 
Bestbirths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lyme-Autism Connection Conference
Posts: 2,232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Would you mind if I ask his diagnosis?
All of our children have toxic heavy elements on their hair tests (as do dh and I)

Ds was diagnosed with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity. He has been chronically ill since he was 5 months old. Diagnosed with MCS at age 2. He was diagnosed as gifted (and has very high test scores). We self diagnosed and have treated an eating disorder, muscle wasting, inability to walk, OCD, & anxiety. At age 10 he took the SAT and considered himself "graduated". He regressed at age 12 into autistic type behaviors/state which we at first took as depression from having a chronic illness for so long. Friends like Dar (who is my friend IRL) came over and said things like, maybe he had aspergers (confirmed by my cousin who has children with autism)...so rather than wait 18 months waiting list for an evaluation in our state, we decided to skip straight to the treatment and chelate him. He will probably be cured of asd by the time his appointment for testing comes up. Also mental health said he needed further evaluations for autism. We've been doing some behavior mod, such as requiring him to learn and do basic skills which we call "his chores", before playing video games. He was not autistic before age 12. Through chelation, he is becoming more and more the child we had before the regression at age 12.
Bestbirths is offline  
#374 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
Charles Baudelaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I just looked at these on Amazon. suh-WEET!! I had never heard of them before, but they have ones about African and Hatian princesses!

Namaste!
Yes! And Korean, if memory serves, and a few others -- I really enjoy the fact that it's not exclusively Western in focus.
Charles Baudelaire is offline  
#375 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 03:19 AM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move
I'm just curious how old your kids are and how much they bring to the table, so to speak. Is this just a great idea you have for the future or is this your day to day life? It is hard for me to imagine kids as old as mine (8 and 9)getting books from the library, listening to the news, watching the history channel, seeing the kind of books my DH and I read, and not have lots of things they want to discuss.
A bit of both, really. I don't understand why it's so hard to fit 15-20 minutes of planned history into a day. I mean, as a child, I managed to do all of the things that you're describing while attending public school (and thus completely wasting an average of 9 hours a day). It seems to me that it would naturally be easier if my children weren't wasting all that time sitting on their behinds waiting for someone else to pay attention to them. I still don't see the conflict. And sure, I'll tell you how it's working out in another 10 years.

Quote:
May be this is one of the issues that affects where one falls on the structured homeschooling/unschooling continuum. What do you do with your plan when your kids have something they want to talk about?
Um, we talk about it. If your kid isn't ready, willing, and able to work on the lesson that you've planned, they're either not going to be capable of it or they're going to be surly and miserable. Either way, it's not something that I personally have the energy to deal with. Thus far, it's only happened to me on three occasions; with two of them, my son went back later and did the work on his own (and then some). The third I wrote off as a bad job, and decided to wait longer to re-introduce the subject matter; it was very heavy on reading, and I'm sure that not being able to read it on his own made it less interesting to him.

Quote:
My kids have never "studied" the Wright Brothers, but they would place them somewhere between the Civil War and WWII. They have picked up enough about those wars to know that there were no airplanes in the Civil War, and airplanes where a huge deal in WWII. They also know the years of those wars. Oddly, we've never studied either of those wars but they just come up.
My son doesn't understand the full meaning of the word "war," but he would likewise place the picture, because when you're talking about airplanes and the history of flight, war inevitably comes up. That doesn't change the fact that he's learning about the earliest people around the world for history, it just means that when we get to that part of history, he'll have a deeper understanding of it. Like I said, I don't see why these two things have to conflict.

Quote:
In spite of, or may be because of, our relaxed attitude toward history, my kids are gradually developing a good mental timeline and discovering for themselves which things were happening at the same time. They add painters, writers, etc. to their books of the centuries. Because they are adding things to different sections of their books, they are reviewing the things things they've added previously. If we were just working straight though, they wouldn't be giving themselves that same kind of review.
Why not? I mean, if they get to explore their own interests, if they enjoy the subject of history, of course they'd be constantly reviewing.

Quote:
Personally, I think that any time I find myself wanting to make sure my kids learn something because I never did I'm on a slippery slope. If it is so important, then I need to make it a priority to learn it myself. I think that I'm teaching my kids a great deal more by learning the things I want to know than my forcing them to learn things they are not interested in.
Again, we're not talking about forcing or coercion, in my opinion. Despite the extremely negative feelings that some posters have evidenced about any parent-directed instruction, I don't think that I'm coercing my child by asking him to pay a bit of attention to something. I'm not killing his spirit or quashing his imagination. My son does not spend his days tied to a desk being, or being compelled to work on lessons. As far as he's concerned, days are long and giving 15 or 20 minutes at a time to something that Mamma's saying, something that's very interesting anyway, is worthwhile.

Quote:
But then again, I believe that education is the kindling of a fire, not the filling of a bucket. I'm more concerned that they become life long learners than that they memorize certain facts now.
What if he's not interested? Well, if he wasn't fascinated by the idea of nomadic tribes and the beginnings of agriculture (yes, we're at the beginning of our historical journey) around the world, we'd probably have moved on to the next thing by now. See, I'm not trying to fill a bucket either, nor am I attempting to kindle a fire. My intent is to show my child that there's more out there to burn than whatever lint he can scrape up; the fire has to come from them.

I happen to have a child who enjoys memorizing things; I'd rather have him memorize something which may be useful later than the number of dots in the ceiling, which will never be of any consequence. Yes, this involves me deciding that one thing is more important than another. Maybe someday I'll feel sorry that I interrupted his counting of dots to bring him something that I felt was more important, but I'm inclined to doubt it.

The way I see it, children are born wanting to learn, just as they're born wanting to eat and breathe. I try my best to give them healthy foods, I keep the air as clean as I can, and I offer them the tools and information that I think is most likely to prove useful to them as they grow. It's part and parcel of attached parenting for me. I know my own children, and in many ways I know them better than they know themselves. Do I expect that to change in the future? Absolutely. It'll be a while, though, and in the meantime I will continue to educate them in the way that seems most fitting for our family. I'm not asking anyone else to do the same, only to offer me the courtesy of admitting that I know my children better than you do.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#376 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 10:33 AM
 
Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Nooooo! Not the toothbrushing example! Please, anything but that.

Ahem. I know you're new and all that, but may I suggest you go to Gentle Discipline and take a gander at the archives. You will learn far, far more than you ever wanted to about noncoercion and toothbrushing. Also, many other straw men regarding noncoercive childrearing, see : "Tall Buildings, Jumping Off Of;" "Whippets, Doing;" and "Bottle Caps, Children Eating Nothing But."

I guess now we can add, "Playboy, Learning From."
It is certainly your right to opt out of the conversation. I will say that while I'm new to posting on MDC, I have been a homeschooler for six years and interested in gentle discipline for longer than that.

What I'm hearing on this board about parental fears of coercion is expressed in more extreme terms than I've heard elsewhere and I'm interested in discussing the educational implications and how it is possible for parents to have no agenda whatsoever but again feel free to opt out.
Roar is offline  
#377 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 10:48 AM
 
Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
I suppose you could consider being happy and fulfilled to be an agenda, but it's an extremely broad one, and it's an agenda my daughter wholeheartedly shares for herself. dar
So you have an agenda. You have a set of beliefs about what is likely to make your daughter happy (people who aren't addicted to drugs are more likely happy than those who aren't, people who don't beat their children are likely more happy than people who do, etc.)

I hear you adding a new conditions..and that is that it is okay for you to have an agenda as long as long as the agenda is vague and as long as it is something that your child shares. Before we heard how simply knowing the parent has an agenda is harmful and will cause the child to conform to please the parent. I feel quite certain is a relaxed homeschooling parent posted that their child shares the goals your response would be how to do you given the power you have over your kid. How is it that your agenda is excluded from this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Rain has always spent lots of time with other people. As an unschooler, everything is learning, so I'm not really comfortable categorizing situations as learning or not-learning. The thing is, other people don't have the same power over a child as parents do. She can quit soccer, or come home from a friend's house, all with a simple phone call to me and a "See ya". She can't quit being my daughter, though. That's permanent. dar
So in your book the central difference is the permanence of the relationship? What if the person in question is the parent's best friend, the child's grandmother, the next door neighbors you'll have for the next twenty years. Isn't there some risk the child would feel compelled on some level to please? Do you consider this a risk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Pleasing or not pleasing other people in her life are choices she can make freely.dar
Except parents right? They are a special danger zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
She really adored her ballet teacher last fall and spring, and a compliment from him made her day. She respected his knowledge and expertise and knew that his compliments weren't given lightly. She freely chose to get involved in ballet, and to take classes from him, and to attempt to do what he asked to the best of her ability, knowing this about him. I think that's wonderful...dar
Okay, I'll say I really don't get it. What you are saying is that it is okay for your daughter to be influenced by the agenda of a random stranger. By a person who doesn't love her, hasn't known her forever, who wouldn't care for her in the way you would. This agenda is a safe agenda. But, a parent's set of goals and wishes is dangerous and toxic. Does that really make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
I think she's pretty careful about whose opinions she allows to matter to her, and the people she's chosen have rarely let her down. She wants honest feedback from these people, positive or negative. She doesn't always follow their advice, but she often does, and she always considers it seriously.
dar
She sounds like a great kid. From a distance anyway it sounds like a lack of trust in yourself and in your daughter that you could "guide" or "teach" without coercion or that she couldn't follow without going against her true feelings out of desperation to please you. I think that is unfortunate.
Roar is offline  
#378 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 10:50 AM
 
Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since he developed what you are calling autism, have you tried eliminating the video games for a test period of a couple of months?
Roar is offline  
#379 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 11:06 AM
 
Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eminer
At the risk of going round and round, yes, some homeschoolers are abusive. Some unschoolers are neglectful. But abuse and neglect are not part of either homeschooling or unschooling.
I don't think abuse or neglect appropriately characterize what is under discussion here. I'm guessing most of us are aiming a lot higher than don't abuse the kids and the kinds of stuff we are discussing are finer points.
Roar is offline  
#380 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 11:23 AM
 
eminer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar
I don't think abuse or neglect appropriately characterize what is under discussion here. I'm guessing most of us are aiming a lot higher than don't abuse the kids and the kinds of stuff we are discussing are finer points.
Um, see the post, i.e. your post, to which I was replying. None of us discussing here have advocated the kinds of parenting practices you claimed (earlier) to associate with unschooling, based on your experience. People were saying that while these parenting practices are not part of the method or philosophy of unschooling. If I were to say, "The classical homeschoolers I know force their kids to sit at the kitchen table and punish them if they don't do their work," my comments could reasonably provoke a similar response: Ok, but that's a parenting choice, not a part of the method or philosophy of classical homeschooling.

Oye Yemaya oloto
eminer is offline  
#381 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 11:25 AM
 
Linda on the move's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: basking in the sunshine
Posts: 10,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Linda, what an interesting post! And it sort of gave me an idea - what if we had a timeline of sorts on the wall, and just added things that we'd run into or read about or heard about? I think I actually saw a blank one at a homeschool resource fair I went to a little while ago...
Some people do that and it works well for them.

I prefer the notebooks to a wall because it allows the child a great deal more control over the process. My kids make picture, dictate mini-reports, etc. They each have their own so they can pick out their own postcards from historic sites, etc. It is also more flexible. With a wall, you might end up with more entries than will fit in one time period.

Either way it's the same basic idea.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

Linda on the move is online now  
#382 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 11:33 AM
 
Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eminer
Um, see the post, i.e. your post, to which I was replying. None of us discussing here have advocated the kinds of parenting practices you claimed (earlier) to associate with unschooling, based on your experience.
Huh? There is more than one poster here who said their kids play video games for hours every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eminer
People were saying that while these parenting practices are not part of the method or philosophy of unschooling. If I were to say, "The classical homeschoolers I know force their kids to sit at the kitchen table and punish them if they don't do their work," my comments could reasonably provoke a similar response: Ok, but that's a parenting choice, not a part of the method or philosophy of classical homeschooling.
And, I would find it perfectly reasonable for you to make that observation about classical homeschooling or to ask if following the WTM to the letter tends to promote parent-child conflict. If the method tends to be associated with a particular negative outcome it makes sense to discuss that and consider how that might be relevant or not to the families of people using that method.
Roar is offline  
#383 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 11:47 AM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,754
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Roar:
"If the method tends to be associated with a particular negative outcome it makes sense to discuss that and consider how that might be relevant or not to the families of people using that method."

Okay, here's my question, which it may be no one is interested in answering, but just in case....Is there any kind of empirical evidence that unschooling is associated with a negative educational outcome?

When I was exploring education options for dd1, my favorite school option was the Duke School for Children, which has child-led group learning. At the time I read a fair number of articles about positive outcomes from child-directed learning. I can't find them from quickly googling...and things are packed timewise right now.

I just keep seeing this assertion that there are negative outcomes, with no data to back it up. It feels different to say, IRL I knew some un/hser whose kids turned out to be bums, which can be countered with well, IRL and books I know un/hsers who went Ivy League.

I just don't see any particular hs method being associated with any particular outcomes in what I've read. I'd love to read anything people have on this.
chfriend is offline  
#384 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:13 PM
 
eminer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar
Huh? There is more than one poster here who said their kids play video games for hours every day.
Right, but not all day every day, to the exclusion of all other activities, including interaction with their parents. Meanwhile, the whole video game issue is tangential to the actual philosophy itself. It may be that many parents who choose unschooling also condone hours of video game play. There are some parents who consider freedom to play video games part of the subset, radical unschooling. However, none of this justifies the claim that unschooling is not a good idea -- i.e. unschooling itself has the potential to lead to a video-game-heavy outcome -- for families that do frown on or even disallow video games.

Quote:
And, I would find it perfectly reasonable for you to make that observation about classical homeschooling or to ask if following the WTM to the letter tends to promote parent-child conflict. If the method tends to be associated with a particular negative outcome it makes sense to discuss that and consider how that might be relevant or not to the families of people using that method.
Fair enough, but is it the method? Can't families follow the WTM without using punishment or requiring a particular kind of scheduling? Obviously, parents who punish and schedule are more likely to be drawn to a structured form of homeschooling. They are less likely to choose unschooling. But it's not prima facie clear that the conflict pattern is an outcome of this particular choice (i.e. structured homeschooling).

Oye Yemaya oloto
eminer is offline  
#385 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:31 PM
 
Bestbirths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lyme-Autism Connection Conference
Posts: 2,232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Roar, yes, we have tried eliminating video games for a few months, and I think I've said before, his condition worsened. He languished in pain and had nothing to take his mind off of it. You can only watch the history channel so long. And...we are talking about a completely homebound bedridden child, who was confined to his room....

He is not the same child anymore. Right now he is hanging out over at a friends. Two college students, and himself. His two friends go to work and school, and when they come home, they all play video games. My son gives himself his supplements and chelators while over there. I made a recommendation that while they were at work and school, my son would read the drivers manual and study to take the drivers test. While staying with his friends, he goes out to eat and to movies, and does things that they do. This is a huge step for him. At the same time while broadening his horizons, I am sure the three stay up all night playing video games for 12 hours at a time. The other two boys also maintain relationships with girlfriends. My son is two years younger than his two friends, not in college, and does not have an interest in a girlfriend. Taking the drivers test and learning how to drive, is not something that before chelation, we thought that he would be doing, so we are very very happy with our sons progress. This saturday he will go to another LAN video game tournament. I mod on mothering from the LAN with my laptop. I stay to help him navigate the social situation there, but he is doing so well, it will be a matter of time before we may send him to a MLG tournament with his friends and without us.

As far as the concern about unschooling resulting in becoming a bum, I find this offensive. As people with multiple chemical sensitivity, our family and others like us often find ourselves displaced, homeless, disabled, on food stamps, welfare and poor. Right now, I have a new minivan and an expensive house in the suburbs.....but seeing as I could very easily be about to lose all that, I realize what a whisper away from living in our car a family can be, and I don't appreciate the bum reference. I am the same person today as I was before, and we work just as hard now, as when we lived on welfare or on disability in a campground.

If the intermodal comes, we certainly will lose our home and have a challenge finding someone who will rent to such a large family....making a camper at a campground an option for us....yet again. : You can be sure, we would still have internet and gaming at the campground, or even if we lived in our car we would be hooked up with t.v.'s , the xbox, and the wireless connection on the laptop...If we lived in our car, there might be a terrible lag problem with the wireless connection and that would stink.
Bestbirths is offline  
#386 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
Charles Baudelaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend
Roar:
"If the method tends to be associated with a particular negative outcome it makes sense to discuss that and consider how that might be relevant or not to the families of people using that method."

Okay, here's my question, which it may be no one is interested in answering, but just in case....Is there any kind of empirical evidence that unschooling is associated with a negative educational outcome?

When I was exploring education options for dd1, my favorite school option was the Duke School for Children, which has child-led group learning. At the time I read a fair number of articles about positive outcomes from child-directed learning. I can't find them from quickly googling...and things are packed timewise right now.

I just keep seeing this assertion that there are negative outcomes, with no data to back it up. It feels different to say, IRL I knew some un/hser whose kids turned out to be bums, which can be countered with well, IRL and books I know un/hsers who went Ivy League.

I just don't see any particular hs method being associated with any particular outcomes in what I've read. I'd love to read anything people have on this.
It's an interesting question! I think HSing is very little-studied, even in "colleges" of "education" -- and of course I have my theories as to why that might be. Cough. Hey, if anyone's an ed major, this sounds like a possible paper topic. Or dissertation research.
Charles Baudelaire is offline  
#387 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 01:39 PM
 
Lillian J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel
I don't think that's a fair interpretation of WTM. I thought it was pretty clear that the idea was stuffing kids full of a bunch of knowledge that they DO care about.
Then why this sort of advice in their website article, "Encouraging" Your Child to Do Her Work?

Quote:
But it may also be the case that your child has learned how to get out of difficult work by complaining, refusing, or crying. If the behaviour continues, post on a chart or on a piece of paper that you can both see the consequences for refusing to do work (if you are convinced the child is able to do it).
- Lillian
Lillian J is offline  
#388 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 01:48 PM
 
Lillian J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,050
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauracd
So if I'm getting this right, an unschooler wouldn't hand their kid a volume of Shakespeare's plays and say, "I think it is time you learned Shakespeare." But, if there was say, a quote that your child saw somewhere that was by Shakespeare, or you saw a movie advertised that was based on a Shakespeare play and if your kid then began asking questions about who Shakespeare was and what he wrote, then you would begin introducing him to Shakespeare for as long as he was interested?

Is that the main idea?
Although someone especially interested in Shakespeare might read her child stories from a child's book of Shakespeare, and/or might share favorite lines from plays with them, and/or watch a film with them of a play she loves, etc. Or take them to a play that's showing nearby. My son loves Shakespeare, is well acquainted with his work, and was never ever told he had to learn any of it - he was just exposed to it in the course of living with me. I suppose there are probably people who are reluctant to just go ahead and share their passions unless a child asks, but I think that would probably be pretty rare - I wouldn't imagine it would be a particularly natural and easy way to live with your family. Lillian
Lillian J is offline  
#389 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 02:11 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,754
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here's the part of that article that really caught my eye:

"If a complaint occurs when you simply state the alternative, double the consequence. (But make sure you forewarn the child of this result! Otherwise you will produce resentment.) One parent who successfully broke the habit of complaining with his child continually doubled the work so that it filled all of the child's free time for two days. The child stopped complaining.

Tell the child that specific assignments have to be completed before play-time begins. Then carry through; refuse to excuse the child for play until the work is done. A good rule might be, 'If you play during study time, you must study during play time.'"


I could conclude that I don't even have to send my kid to school for them to lose recess!

I don't believe that the vast majority of the WTM parents on MDC use this particular approach. And I don't think it's the method per se that causes this kind of punitive approach. It is the reason that while I enjoy some of the resources parent-structured hsing suggest, I can't see myself going there.
chfriend is offline  
#390 of 591 Old 07-20-2006, 02:13 PM
 
chfriend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in a red state
Posts: 4,754
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
It's an interesting question! I think HSing is very little-studied, even in "colleges" of "education" -- and of course I have my theories as to why that might be. Cough. Hey, if anyone's an ed major, this sounds like a possible paper topic. Or dissertation research.
If dp get's a spare minute (ha!), I'll ask her to do an ERIC search to see if anything turns up. But lately, spare minutes are hard to find.
chfriend is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off