Article about having both cut and uncut sons? - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-02-2003, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Does anyone know of a good article for parents who have already circumcised one son, but who might consider not circing a subsequent son?

I have a friend with two circed sons. She's pregnant with boy #3, and I think to convince her, she'll need info that directly addresses this issue (having both circed and intact sons), which is a pretty big concern for her.

I've had a look through several of the circumcision sites, and I'm planning to send her Fleiss' Mothering article, but it doesn't directly address the brother issue...

TIA!
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:32 PM
 
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I'm sorry I dont have links or articles for you, but I have 4 boys (2 step we have custody and 2 birth) 3 of them are circ'd and the last is intact. It has not been an issue of any sort. When Nate came home the boys asked about his penis and why it was different. We explained matter of factly (we didnt want them to feel bad about their bodies) and they just said "oh". The boys ages are 13, 10, 7 and 3. They really dont care. They dont think he looks "weird" or anything like that. I think we are more preoccupied than the kids are. Really, the only time it comes up is if their baby cousin is over and having his diaper changed (he's circd) "hey, he was circumsised? oh, okay" I guess what I'm trying to babble about is that having been there, it doesnt matter.
Funny thing, the older boys have renamed circing as "the wrath". They came up with that one all on their own, and vow not to do it to their boys.
Good luck on your search!
laura
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Old 12-03-2003, 06:41 PM
 
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I'm looking for the same info/articles/sites. My brother and his wife struggled with the decision to circ their son, and ended up circing him. At the time, it never even occurred to me that they would even consider circing, or I would have done my best to convince them not to do it! I was shocked and horrified when I found out they circed him. Then my brother said if they had it to do over they wouldn't have circed him, and I said, "So if you have another boy you won't circ him, right?" and my brother said "Of course we'll circ him! We can't circ one and not the other!" Again, I was horrified. In fact, I think I was even more horrified by this revelation. I mean, to actually KNOW that you made the wrong decision, and then to insist on doing the same wrong thing to future sons just for the sake of being consistent??? Ever since then, I've been trying to come up with a way to talk them out of it, but they are both terribly stubborn. My brother said the circed boy would look at the intact boy and say 'what the hell is that???' I know that they still feel the same way, because my SIL recently stayed with us to have her 3rd child (they live in Africa and she came to the States to use the hospital -- thankfully the 2nd and 3rd were both girls) and when I was sitting in the waiting room with her at one of her prenatal appointments she was reading through the paperwork and she was complaining about the high cost of circ. Later, my mother said something to her about how she hoped my SIL wouldn't circ if/when she had another boy, and my SIL said, oh, I think my husband would have something to say about that, and I wouldn't make that decision without him. Then she said "What are we supposed to say to our first son, if we circed him but then we don't circ our second son??" It absolutely amazes me that someone could do such a thing to their second son just to be "fair" to the first son. I mean, the question they should be asking is, what would they say to their second son if they circed him just to be fair to his brother?? Seems like it would be much harder to justify the the second son's circ to the second son than it would be to justify the second son's intactness to the first son. I told her that she could tell the first son that they made what they thought was the best decision based on the information they had at the time, and that when they didn't circ his brother they were making the best decision based on the information they had at THAT time. She totally rejected that argument.

There are other issues, as well. My brother is circed (my father's decision, that my mother has had to live with). In retrospect, I can't believe I didn't consider the possibility that they would circ my nephew, since I knew that my brother is circed. I'm sure he's insecure and in denial that there is anything wrong with his penis and wants his sons to look like him. Also, my SIL says she wouldn't want to have sex with a man who wasn't circed, and she's apparently assuming that her son's future partner will feel the same way. My partner is intact, and I countered that I wouldn't want to have sex with a circed man. That comment backfired, and my mother later criticized me for making it. I said that intact penises are cleaner and more hygienic, and she said, but circs are done for cleanliness and hygiene, and I said yes ironic isn't it. She totally rejected that argument, too.

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to hijack the thread or write such a book! I probably should have just said "I'm looking for the same articles/info/sites." I appreciate anecdotal accounts, like the one Laura gave, but I don't think it's enough to convince my stubborn brother & SIL. I've already told them that there are always worse psychological consequences from circing a boy than there are from leaving one intact (and that, in fact, I have NEVER heard of a bad psychological outcome from leaving a boy intact), but they simply won't believe me.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 12-03-2003, 06:58 PM
 
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I've been thinking about this alot since I've posted. My bil has circd his ds and I worry about the next one. What to say? The only thing I could come up with was if you abused your first two kids but then got help and overcame it but then got pregnant. Would you abuse the 3rd child to be fair? You know its wrong, but hey, gotta treat them all the same. Sometimes another angle works. When my sister was pregnant she planned to circ. She just didnt like the look of an intact penis. It didnt matter what I said, my experience (I cried for days after they brought my circd son to me, it looked so painful) and all the studies in the world would not change her mind. What did? I asked who was she going to get to circ if she had a daughter. She was shocked, "why the hell would I do something so barbaric?" she said. I told her to think about that statement and why she felt she had to protect her daughter and not her son. It worked.(I have to stop babbling...)
My point being, maybe just finding comparisons will help them see the light?
Much luck to all of you!
laura
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Laura - I really appreciate your input. I really am so in awe of parents who can make the hard choice to leave a younger son intact when older sons have been circed.

Alice - I appreciate your input - glad to know that someone else is looking for the same kind of article! Maybe someone will write one (I've had no luck in my searches through the various circumcision sites).

I really think a lot of it comes down to this - if you circ all of your children, you can pretend that the first circumcision wasn't a mistake. You don't have to face the fact that you made that kind of mistake with one (or more of children).

If you choose to leave a younger son intact, you are acknowledging that you made a really big mistake with your circed child. I know I would just cry and cry and cry if I had circed my ds without realizing what they really did, only to find out later. I think it's easier, once you've circed once, to just not think about it any longer.

I was thinking about suggesting to my friend that by leaving her youngest son intact, not only would she be respecting his genital integrity (and human rights), but she would also probably be saving her future grandchildren from any possibility of circumcision, wouldn't you think?

That message seems to come through from your post, Laura - that your sons all know that they wouldn't circumcise any of their own children...
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry - double post (really not sure how that happened)...
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Old 12-03-2003, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry - triple post!
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:28 PM
 
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Alice:

It sounds like your brother and SIL have made the decision to circ and are just presenting justifications that they think you can't argue with. This type thing can be especially difficult because you don't know the real reason and therefore can't tackle the real reason. Instead of hitting the target, you are firing at a phantom target. If yo can get them to talk about it, you may be able to distill out the real reason which you can then tackle. If they have no concern about pain or don't believe that circumcision is painful, then talking about pain relief is wasting time. If they don't believe that there are any sexual rammifications, talking about the sexual damages will get you nowhere. Find out where their buttons are and start pushing those buttons as fast as you possibly can. Then and only then will you begin to get through their defenses.




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