Great news! My SIL had her baby.... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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....and it's a GIRL! I can't tell you how relieved I am. Everyone thought it was a boy (early ultrasound, they didn't want to know but the tech gave it away that she thought it was a boy).

I just know they would have circed a second boy. I gave them the Fleiss articles and book, I don't know if they read them or not. I brought it up in an email a couple of days ago (chatting about breastfeeding and gifts mostly) and just said if you have any questions about the materials or how dh and I reached our decision to leave ds intact, let me know. Got zero response to that.

OMG all these months of stressing and agonizing on my part.....but I am so happy that their second baby, at least, gets to keep her genitals intact!

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#2 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 01:00 PM
 
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what a great relief! my SIL is having her u/s as i type this and i am praying it is a girl. i just don't know if i could get through to her and her dh on the circ issue and it would be really hard for me to think kind thoughts about them if they circed after i gave them all the info i have.
congrats on your new niece!
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#3 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 01:03 PM
 
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Congratualtions Auntie!!

I can relate to your relief. I always breathe that sigh of relief when I hear that someone I know would circ is having a girl. My best friend just told me she is PG. She already has 2 circ'd boys, and this one will also be circ if it's a boy. She was SHOCKED when I brought it up before we had our babies together(her 2nd, my 3rd). She was all it's cleaner, blah, blah, blah. This is the kind of very non-chalant friend that will just sort of stop calling if confrontations arise. I also found it difficult to really get into the discussion for fear she would think I thought she was a monster for doing it the first time. I was just learning about circ when I brought it up, too. I didn't have the info readily avail to counter her "reasons". I will try to plant the seeds again, but I doubt it will get anywhere. Oh goodness, this thread isn't about me!:LOL

Anyway, I can totally relate.
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#4 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elphaba
i just don't know if i could get through to her and her dh on the circ issue and it would be really hard for me to think kind thoughts about them if they circed after i gave them all the info i have.
I feel the same way. Whenever I see my BF, the first thing I think of are her circ'd sons. Mostly b/c we had discussed it, yet she refused to research. I have other friends that circ'd, but it was before I knew otherwise and we never discussed it. I have another good, mainstream friend that is PG and had her U/S yesterday(hey, I need to call her!). I pray she is having a girl!!!
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#5 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 02:51 PM
 
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Jane, I get to join your party! My SIL just called and their u/s indicated a girl! Of course, it's no guarantee, but I am so relieved.
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#6 of 20 Old 01-09-2004, 09:36 PM
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I completely understand where you are coming from, but it still makes me sad that we, as a society, have to be glad that a child was not born male.

If only circ didn't exist. Sigh.
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#7 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by mamajulie
I completely understand where you are coming from, but it still makes me sad that we, as a society, have to be glad that a child was not born male.

If only circ didn't exist. Sigh.
ITA. Isn't it ironic....here in the US we anti-circers are praying for girls, while in India and China the girl babies get aborted (whereas they used to just be killed at birth).

And in other news my sister has just gotten engaged to a Conservative Jewish man (who DEFINITELY wants to circ) so I have to spend the next 19-plus months (10 til the wedding, and they want to start trying right away) praying for a) a girl or b) a radical change of heart on BIL's part.

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#8 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 12:47 PM
 
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or C. For your sister to have the courage to do what is right and protect her child. Even if her husband does NOT change his feelings about WANTING to circumcise his son... he can't- if the child's mother has the courage to defend him. That's all it takes.

Love Sarah
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#9 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 01:20 PM
 
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There was a documentary on religious circumcision on wednesday night on 360Vision. The first segment showed two jewish couples discussing whether or not to circ. The one couple agreed with each other that they would not - and they did not, despite extreme pressure from their immediate family. They exhibited a lot of courage in not being swayed, and were very comfortable in their decision. With the other couple , in DH mind there was no question that it would be done. However his DW was torn between commitment to her religion and her motherly instinct to protect her baby from harm. In the end she acquiesced, and they had a mohel do the deed. The DW was clearly very distressed, and there were lots of tears.

The last segment was a discussion involving Dr Arif Bhimji ( a Muslim, and associated with The Association for Genital Integrity ) and a Jewish lady who ,if I recall correctly, was involved with conducting Bris with or without a circ.

The basic message that I got from the show was that there are more and more couples of both the Jewish and Muslim faiths who are opting not to circumcise their sons
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#10 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Howard, you didn't happen to catch the name of that documentary or tape it, did you? I've heard of the documentary "It's a Boy!" and even though it's terribly expensive to buy I've been thinking about buying it for my sister. I'd love to collect some more.

Sarah, you're right, I will be praying for C) as well. In my thinking, that was part of what would result in B) - ie, my sister would stand up for her baby and persuade future BIL that not circing is the right thing to do. I am so terribly worried about it, though.....I love my sister dearly, we're very close, but she is so keen to get married and have babies (she's 34 this year) and she's so unable to stand up for herself in a relationship that I am afraid her sons will pay the price of marital/religious harmony.

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#11 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sarah
or C. For your sister to have the courage to do what is right and protect her child.
I was thinking the same thing. I start talking to her about circ now. I'd also contact NOCIRC and ask them if they have any connections for the "It's a Boy!" film. Maybe someone has a copy you could borrow or something.
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#12 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Believe me, I have been talking to her about circ, ever since it became apparent where this relationship was heading. I have sent her all the links on Judaism/anti-circ that I can find. I have told her about the Fleiss and Goldman books. (At her request I have not sent them to her because she hasn't wanted to spark a huge conversation with her BF before "she's ready." : ) I told her over and over that she REALLY needed to talk about this with him BEFORE they got engaged. Well, they had a big conversation (fight) about it over xmas when they were here and he noticed Fleiss on my bookshelf. She still won't tell me what all transpired in the conversation but she was totally upset and so was he.

And then they got engaged on Dec. 31. I have to back off now. She's moving in with him in two weeks and they're setting a date for October, and she's going into wedding planning mode. AKA Bridezilla mode. She works a high-stress job in the financial industry in NYC and travels all the time, so between work and wedding planning she's going to be even more of a stress case than she already is.

If I push this right now it will just alienate her. My sister is about the stubbornest person I know, and very sensitive to criticism of her significant other (not just this one, every person she's dated for the past 15 years, whether or not he was a schmuck). I know from sad experience with a terrible relationship that she was in for 3 years that if I criticize her SO she will just defend him more - even if she was the one who told me the bad things about him to begin with. :

OK, rant over, but believe me there is nothing else I can productively do right now. I have to bide my time right now. (And accept that I may not win this fight if she chooses not to fight, at which point I have to decide whether I can still have a relationship with her if she circs. Which is a terrible, horrible thing to say but honestly I do not know if I will be able to forgive her if she circs.)

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#13 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jane

(And accept that I may not win this fight if she chooses not to fight, at which point I have to decide whether I can still have a relationship with her if she circs. Which is a terrible, horrible thing to say but honestly I do not know if I will be able to forgive her if she circs.)

Now that I know circ. for what it REALLY is, I feel the same way. My SIL is currently pregnant and I am praying for either an intact boy or a girl. I'm afraid my brother has the "macho" image that sometimes leads dads to wanting their sons circ'd. (I hope I'm wrong, though.)

And you're right--your sis should discuss this (and other aspects of religion) with her fiance BEFORE the wedding. But it's hard to tell that to people who aren't actually married.
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#14 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 08:29 PM
 
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Julie:

I really don't think it is macho. I think it is out and out fear.

Think about it. When a man finds out he is about to become a father, all of a sudden, the realization hits him that he is going to have a lot more responsibility and that can certainly be frightening. I think that circumcision is just one way of avoiding some of that responsibility. The circumcised man is thinking about having to teach his son about how to take care of that problematical foreskin and discussing with him why he is different than all of the other boys in the locker room. In his eyes, this is something he can't do because he has never had one (past day one) and has no clue how to teach his son about these very important things.

What that father doesn't know is that the foreskin is no more problematical than a circumcised penis and it requires no more instruction. He also doesn't understand that his perspective is all wrong for boys born today and that there will be almost exactly as many intact as circumcised and circumcision will be much, much harder to explain. While his intent is to avoid a lot of problems down the road, in actuality, he is creating many more for himself and his son.





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#15 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 08:39 PM
 
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Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Julie:

I really don't think it is macho. I think it is out and out fear.
I'd have to disagree here. I think it's hard for men to admit that something is wrong with their penis and they really have to be able to do that to admit it's not the best thing to do to their child. That's really what the look like Dad issue is about IMO.
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#16 of 20 Old 01-10-2004, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ITA with AnnMarie. I've seen it in my own dh - an otherwise rational, compassionate person who after receiving TONS of info on circ from me still thinks a) it's OK for parents to circ "for cultural reasons" (i.e. to look like dad) and b) that there's nothing wrong with his penis, and he doesn't miss what he's never had.

DH has had no issues with leaving ds intact and has said he's glad we did. He's had no squeamishness about hygiene or anything else. At least for him, it's all about the massive denial.

Back to the topic of my SIL - dh and I need backup guardians for ds (my youngest sister and her dh are currently specified in our wills), and I had been resisting the idea of SIL and her dh until I saw what they did with this baby should it have been a boy. Now I'm thinking I might agree to them.....but I'm thinking of writing out an addendum to the will to try to protect ds' foreskin should something come along like "phimosis" or an infection! Do you think that's too remote and speculative? For this to be necessary, both dh and I would have to be dead and for some reason my sister and her dh wouldn't have taken guardianship.

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#17 of 20 Old 01-11-2004, 03:16 AM
 
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Congratulations On The Arrival Of Your New Niece, Auntie Quirky!!

Sarcastic-Me Would Probably Say To One Of Them (after baby is somewhat older) "Aren't You Glad You Didn't Circ?"

:

Please help us get this straight:

* Future BIL has strong religious beliefs.

* His religious beliefs are okay with premarital sex.

* He believes it's alright to "play house" without a bona fide (sincere, authentic) commitment as a married couple even though they haven't reached a solution concerning the very important topic of whether to circumcise or not.

What other topics have been swept under the rug?

How will they work out the "other" problems that will surface whilst they live out the rest of their lives with each other?

How will any possible future sons feel about being circumcised?

What if the sons sue?

What if they are angry with the parents? And at what age will this anger surface?

She might be interested in exploring why she feels the need to seek marriage at any cost to the genitals of sons to be.

They might be better off doing some pre-marriage counselling so they don't rush into things.

After all, they have the rest of their lives together.
Quote:
Originally posted by Quirky
. . . I'm thinking of writing out an addendum to the will to try to protect ds' foreskin should something come along like "phimosis" or an infection! Do you think that's too remote and speculative?
This sounds like a fabulous idea! Your ds may not retract till he's eighteen or so. And what happens if he's 25yo with "phimosis"? I'm actually thinking of writing such a letter for the sake of my intact son. Cover all your bases.

Ps. According to the dictionary "an exaggerated sense of masculinity = macho" and IMHO is most usually a cover-up for fear.
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#18 of 20 Old 01-11-2004, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The ironic thing is, as far as I know, he doesn't believe in God per se. But he is still observant on many fronts and the cultural aspects of Judaism are very important to him.

Sigh....

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#19 of 20 Old 01-11-2004, 03:30 AM
 
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#20 of 20 Old 01-11-2004, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Julie:

I really don't think it is macho. I think it is out and out fear.

Think about it. When a man finds out he is about to become a father, all of a sudden, the realization hits him that he is going to have a lot more responsibility and that can certainly be frightening. I think that circumcision is just one way of avoiding some of that responsibility.

Frank
Well, they already have two girls, so he's used to being a father.
And ya' gotta remember.......I'm in "circ 'em all" Utah. :
I'm going to give him the Fleiss article, and the article from noharmm titled, "an appeal to fathers." I'm also going to mention that my son and our cousin's son are both intact.


And back to the OP.... Aunty Quirky :
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