How do I discuss male genital integrity without hurting friends who have circ'd? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 46 Old 10-23-2010, 01:06 AM
 
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Honestly between the circing and the CIO, I would've had to leave. I would've been sad and angry about the circing, but what's done is done...however, sitting there while a baby is crying and being ignored? Nope, I'm out, and I would not be able to keep my moth shut, either.
A mom's group, IMO, is supposed to be supportive. If you're that far removed from their style of parenting, support is going to be pretty hard to come by, and each meeting will probably be stressful. Why bother?

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#32 of 46 Old 10-23-2010, 01:17 AM
 
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I think I'd have had to leave the particular playgroup. Between the circ, the CIO and the way they seem to have been seeing/treating you (OP) as a bit of a freak, I'd just be too uncomfortable to stick around.

I don't get the hygiene thing. I don't get the "uncirc'd is gross" thing. We're talking about deliberately creating an open wound in a diaper. I just don't get it.

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#33 of 46 Old 10-23-2010, 08:57 PM
 
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please keep in mind that discusion of or reference to religion is against the forum guidelines.

 
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#34 of 46 Old 10-23-2010, 10:04 PM
 
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I'm having a hard time getting past the taking pictures of the circ, honestly. Wow. I can understand circing because you think it's cleaner or whatever, but what the hell kind of person takes pictures of it??

I'm usually pretty live and let live, most of my friends circed, but good Lord. I couldn't be friends with people who took pictures of it.
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#35 of 46 Old 10-26-2010, 10:08 AM
 
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The picture taking is just sadistic to me. Yuck. I'm sure I couldn't have stopped myself from looking at that mom like she had 2 heads.
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#36 of 46 Old 10-26-2010, 12:01 PM
 
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when I was preggers with DS (and I knew I was having a boy)...the circ issue came up with a friend who was helping me register. Her little boy is 7 months older than DS... and he is circed.

I don't see any value in trying to put guilt on a mama for a decision that can't be undone... so I said something like, "I was researching it and found pictures of the prodecure being done on a baby, and it just hit me in my gut, and my mama bear came out. I can't knowingly let anyone do that to DS." Her response was, "ooh... don't tell me, I don't want to know." I just left it at that and hope that a seed was planted.

I think that in that group of moms I would probably want to say something like, "yeah, I've seen pictures of circs being done, and that's why I decided I couldnt let anyone do that to DS." Of course, I don't know if I'd actually have the guts to say that, as I'm pretty nonconfrontational... I would probably bow out of that group, to be honest.

And since the topic of circ is open between you and bff, you could have a side convo with her.... something to the effect of "I was really uncomfortable at that playgroup. I felt like they were saying my son's penis is gross... and I felt like they were completely judging me for my parenting style." And just see where the conersation goes.

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#37 of 46 Old 10-26-2010, 02:28 PM
 
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Oh this is such a hard situation

A couple of weeks ago I posted here about the same thing...my moms group all be pro circ and me feeling so sick and sad about it.

What I've come to think is this...not one of these women wanted to circ. Every one of them had a husband that insisted on it. Each woman had sorrow of their son's pain. So I made it my place to change Ds's diaper in front of them. When circ is talked about I'm sure to say that my Dh is cut and that it was HIM who chose to keep Ds intact (and I say intact not uncut). That Dh chose this because he saw that there is no reason beyond 'matching' and then I keep it light by adding that unless ds added pubic hair and several inches they don't match anyways! In the future I'm thinking of slipping in 'and over 100 babies die each year from circumcision...matching isn't worth the risk.'

I decided that I can be friends with these women.

Now, CIO on the other hand. A mom was questioning her Dh's desire to let their son CIO. I stated flatly that it harms the baby's brain development and was 'soooo 1990's!' i quoted Sears Baby Sleep Book. The next time I saw the mama she say she had just ordered Sears' book and was sure she did not want to CIO.

I have decided with Dh that our home is not supportive of CIO and spanking No child is
to CIO or be spanked at our home. We do not permit talk supporting either to happen in our home.

Again, I found I could be good friends with these women. Circ, so far, is the only issue that divided us.

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#38 of 46 Old 10-26-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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The problem with not challenging those that have already circed before is that they are the most likely to do it again, especially if no one says anything to them about it. Personally I think it's imperative to get the word out to those that have already circ'd because hopefully we can spare any future sons they might have. Giving them a pass is the equivelant of abandoning their future sons.
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#39 of 46 Old 10-26-2010, 06:49 PM
 
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This thread was started long ago, so I don't know if the OP is still following or still having her decision to circ questioned in any cases, but if you have an intact DH, you have the best response possible!

"My husband is intact, and he would not consider circumcision for his son under any circumstances." You might add, "Not because he is concerned about looking different, but because he knows how much he would miss his own foreskin if it were gone."

This is almost guaranteed to elicit more questions, which would be an invitation to talk not only about "studies" and statistics, but about a real person's experience. We who are married to intact men know that the foreskin adds much to a man's "quality of life"!

Even women whose husbands are not intact might be able to use a variant of this line -- if your circ'd DH was against it for his own son because he regrets that he was circumcised without his consent, you can say that. Or you can just say, "Most [or all] couples I know where the husband is intact choose to keep their sons intact because the dad values the fact that he is uncut." (Even if you've only read posts like this and don't know any intact men personally, it's still true. ) I think appealing to personal experience is more persuasive than facts and figures, which are easily dismissed. (Consider how many on this board dismiss -- and even feel offended by -- friends and family members who try to use facts and figures to persuade us to be more conventional in our parenting.)

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#40 of 46 Old 10-29-2010, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am enjoying this thread's revival, as an oldie but a goodie. For those interested, I will bring you up to speed. It's been a year and a half since this little drama unfolded and as I became a more confident mother of a happy "lap baby", then a healthy and adventurous toddler. I became more outspoken about my convictions on circ, CIO, extended bfing, and other things. Most of the women are fine with me and my "nutty" opinions. I continue to see some of the women from the group. Unfortunately my friend with the intact son lashed out at me in anger, I don't think it was about me but rather related to some personal issues. She told me that she wasn't comfortable having my unvaccinated son around her children (she just had a baby a few months ago). She's refused to see me for almost a year, and while I still hold out a hand in friendship, she continues to rebuff me. I am determined to "kill with kindness", as I know she is having a rough time. She struggled after the birth of her first child, and having two so close together must be doubly difficult.

I moved and have been able to make more friends, most mainstream but a few are soggy. I consider myself a granola ambassador, afterall, as one person in this thread mentioned, "everyone needs a crazy hippy friend!"

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Originally Posted by nia82 View Post
Wow, that is a tough situation. It's not just that those women circed out of ignorance which is totally understandable as it is so prevalent in this culture (cause the docs say it is standard, better, God knows what), but they took pictures of it? How sadist. They also practice CIO and find it amusing... There seem to be too many differences.
I'm not a person who can speak up in such groups at all, and with so many differences I personally wouldn't go there again. I'm just not confrontational IRL and pick and choose only mamas who parent like I do (or mostly like I do, and who are open to discussion either way). It is too stressful for me to be with parents who CIO, circ, give their infants soda and McDonalds and so on. I have only experienced it this way, either total MDC mom or totally not, I have yet to meet a mama in between.

I consider myself of a bit of an in-betweener myself, and I have some friends who I am slowly "corrupting" with BWing, CDing, and NIPing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by luv my 2 sweeties View Post
This thread was started long ago, so I don't know if the OP is still following or still having her decision to circ questioned in any cases, but if you have an intact DH, you have the best response possible!

"My husband is intact, and he would not consider circumcision for his son under any circumstances." You might add, "Not because he is concerned about looking different, but because he knows how much he would miss his own foreskin if it were gone."

This is almost guaranteed to elicit more questions, which would be an invitation to talk not only about "studies" and statistics, but about a real person's experience. We who are married to intact men know that the foreskin adds much to a man's "quality of life"!

Even women whose husbands are not intact might be able to use a variant of this line -- if your circ'd DH was against it for his own son because he regrets that he was circumcised without his consent, you can say that. Or you can just say, "Most [or all] couples I know where the husband is intact choose to keep their sons intact because the dad values the fact that he is uncut." (Even if you've only read posts like this and don't know any intact men personally, it's still true. ) I think appealing to personal experience is more persuasive than facts and figures, which are easily dismissed. (Consider how many on this board dismiss -- and even feel offended by -- friends and family members who try to use facts and figures to persuade us to be more conventional in our parenting.)
You make an excellent point about mentioning DH's intact status. And it's true, his biggest objection to circ is his own foreskin. He just gets a pained expression on his face. DH is very protective of his son! We had a pediatrician try to tell us our son's rectal abscess was caused by an infection in the foreskin. You should have heard the shout my husband gave when that guy tried to retract DS! The whole ER stopped dead. But DS was saved from retraction. And later we found out that the doc was the head of peds and a high ranking officer (military hospital) who was there on a special consult. oops!

><> I'm a Christian, knitting, sewing, cooking SAHM to the fearless adventurer Jack born 11/08, and  a  USCG wife
And we are joyfully awaiting a new addition in April 2011! <><
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#41 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 10:19 AM
 
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I'm having the same issue and having a really hard time with it. My son is intact, it's the only decision I could ever be comfortable with. Now that I'm pregnant again and with a new partner, he's all for circumcision. I've discussed all my research on the topic with him and thought I had helped him through his "old fashioned" knowledge on the matter.

But then we had friends over. They circumsized. The sad thing is that from our discussions on the topic, I kind of have a feeling the mother was against it but got strong-armed into it. She was backing me on my side of the debate, when the locker room argument came up and I told them that most kids (in our country, at least) are NOT getting circumsized now because they recommend against it, and actually charge for the procedure now. She explained to her husband that there's no medical reason to have it done, and it basically comes down to personal preference these days.

I was totally livid when the father turned and said to me at one point: "Oh, your child WILL be circumsized." Like he has a flipping say at all!!! He's my partner's best friend, and has been pushing him to have it done with fabulous arguments of "the nurses all recommended it because they had their sons done."

I just don't know how to discuss the topic in front of them (because the dad KEEPS BRINGING IT UP). I don't want to hurt the mother's feelings with my strong view on it, but at the same time I really want to give it to the father because he's so freaking ignorant!!
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#42 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 10:32 AM
 
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Then give it to him Nikki. Tell him its NOT his baby, he DOES'T have the right to make medical decisions, and he gets NO SAY.
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#43 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Honestly I wouldn't bother with the friend. It sounds like he's an ignorant person more interested in his own machismo and the opinion of other women than his own wife. Take it up with your partner when you two are alone. He will listen better if his friend isn't around, making him feel like he has to prove he isn't "whipped".

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#44 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 01:51 PM
 
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The friend seems awfully defensive about his own circumcision if he pushes other people that hard to have it done to their babies and won't even consider the alternative. Methinks he has a lot invested in believing the decision his parents made for him was the right one...

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#45 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 04:37 PM
 
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Oh I agree. It's infuriating to deal with this guy and his smug "I know everything about the penis because I have one" comments. He basically told me that my child is doomed to get AIDS if he doesn't get circumsized. What do you say to that?

Luckily my partner seems to be coming around. I've explained my very valid and well-backed points to him, and he's starting to warm up to the idea. I just feel like this is going to be a war between the friend and I, as we try to win my partner over to each of our sides. =/ Not a fun battle.
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#46 of 46 Old 11-01-2010, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Honestly, I'd tell my husband straight up - why are you listening to him on this? This is OUR child. And show him information about how circumcision does NOT prevent aids, CONDOMS DO. In the US we are #70 on the CIA World Factbook's HIV/Aids Adult prevalence rate, compared to the Netherlands (where my DH is from), which has legalized prostitution and still comes in at #98. And circ is simply not done (except for religious reasons) there at all.

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And we are joyfully awaiting a new addition in April 2011! <><
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