Worried about circ w/o our consent - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 02:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Minarai View Post
Or so we think.
Has anyone ever tried this before? I'd be worried the doctor/nurse/whatever-title medical worker will either ignore it or do the opposite of what is stated on the labels to spite the parents.
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.
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#32 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 02:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.
You'd be surprised.
Some doctors in and out of my area have performed procedures on non-consenting patients just because they (or their staff) got into fights with said patients. They claim they "didn't see" their written or otherwise disapproval and then slap them with a hefty bill afterwards. THAT's where the you-know-what hits the fan. So far, there has been no word on what happened in such scenarios (gee, I wonder why).
There was a famous case that was documented on TLC in 2001 involving a hermaphrodite named Patrick whose parents wanted to raise as a boy, but doctors wanted to surgically make him a girl. They castrated him despite his parents' wishes, saying they were only taking a "biopsy" and afterward justified their actions by claiming the tissue was malignant. Later the biopsy reports came back and said the extracted testicular tissue was perfectly healthy. The family sued, but their was no word on what happened afterward.
I can easily imagine a doctor (especially in the Bible Belt) playing the same card to get away with circing an infant or older child without parental consent.
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#33 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.

There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.


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In September 1997, Hardy and Harlan advised Dr. Taylor that their other children were not circumcised because they felt that circumcision was barbaric and harmful to an infant. On September 26, 1997, when Mrs. Harlan was admitted to Tri-City Hospital in Dallas for delivery, she told the staff that there was to be no circumcision. To prevent an accidental circumcision, the attending nurse threw the circumcision consent form into a nearby trashcan.

Two days after their son’s birth, Hardy and Harlan were stunned when their newborn son was brought to them from the hospital nursery crying and bleeding, and were horrified when they learned that he had just been circumcised by Dr. Taylor. "We were hysterical," recalls Randi, "But when Dr. Taylor stopped by the room his only comment was ‘It’s not the end of the world.’ I mean he’s never even apologized to us." The couple believes Dr. Taylor circumcised their son intentionally in spite of their strong feelings against it.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm sure it's extremely rare, but does happen occasionally. Unfortunately, the penalties are often not strong enough to act as a real deterrent.

Single mom to the Crunchy Froglets, Keith and Carlin, twin boys born 1/30/09. Frozen for 10 years, now unleashed on the world.
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#34 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
Um, I'm a NICU nurse. One of many, many intactivist medical professionals. Circ'ing because we don't like your labels? Wow. Why would an MD take the time to do an invasive procedure he/she wouldn't be compensated for, would definitely be sued for, because he wanted to *spite* the parents??? Seriously.
Unfortunately, intentional actions against parents wishes do happen. The distrust that people have towards medical staff is valid and deserved in many cases. I wish this was not so. It makes the job of genuinely compassionate and caring staff difficult I am sure.

Thank goodness these types are the minority.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#35 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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I agree with Bugmacgee. The chances of a child being circ. are small to non-existent without the proper documentation. Yes, there are the occasional BIZARRE cases as mentioned above but when you compare those to the number of kids who are born every day, it becomes clear that the chances of an improper surgical procedure happening are very small. I don't think the OP should worry about anything. As long as her OB, midwifes, and nurses are aware of her wishes, then everything will be fine.

To the OP: Good luck with everything and I wish you a happy and healthy son.
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#36 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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Tennisdude, I agree with you, the chance of it happening is very very slim....but to ignore that minute chance would be foolish. If your child is that one in 10 million that it happens to....it's very real.

I'm not an advocate of fearmongering, but I certainly think it would be naive to refuse to acknowledge that it has happened and will probably happen again. (And I'm not saying that you are ignoring it!)

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#37 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.
Of course, this happened in dallas. This is a worry of mine, but baby will be rooming in so it shouldn't be a problem. I think my mom was bullied into having my brother circed 20 years ago-- she certainly didn't give informed consent.She wasn't told 'there is no medical reason'. He's the only circed member of our family, that I know of. (Hopefully he always will be).

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#38 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 05:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
There was a case in Texas a few years ago where that apparently happened.



http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm sure it's extremely rare, but does happen occasionally. Unfortunately, the penalties are often not strong enough to act as a real deterrent.
I think my mom was operated on by that doctor... :
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#39 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 08:08 PM
 
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Just wanted to chime in with my two cents...

Sure, while a doctor or nurse intentionally doing something like circ deliberately against the parents wishes is possible, it's very unlikely.
The U.S. is a very litigious society. Practically all the doctors and nurse I know work because they have families to support and bills to pay. Likewise, hospitals are in business to make a profit and there is so much competition their good standing in the community is highly prized (maybe it's a different story if they are the only hospital in a 50 mile radius or something).

I don't think a doctor/nurse/hospital would do something to a patient out of spite for fear of a lawsuit (rightfully so). If a doctor did this, not only would he/she be sued, but the insurance company would drop them and the hospital would most likely drop his/her admitting privileges. Without a hospital or insurance to back them, the doctor can't work, and can't pay his bills and looses his livelihood.
So yes, it could happen, but I think it's so unlikely. Most doctors and nurses want patients to have a happy hospital stay. The best thing to do if you don't want a circ is tell both your OB and the baby's Pedi. Then tell the baby's newborn nursery nurse after he's born. Tell her to pass the info along in report (mom's birth plan, at least every place I've worked, stays on mom's chart - it doesn't go to nursery w/ baby). Also tell the nursery nurse that no retraction of the foreskin needs to happen at all, even if a catheter is needed. As an extra precaution, it won't hurt to have the "no circ, no retraction" sign or labels on the babies isolette.

I've worked in various hospitals for 20 years now. All the things that can or could go wrong, circing babies that aren't supposed to be has never been one in a place I've worked. And it certainly won't happen if you have dad stay with the baby at all times or better yet, have the baby at home (or ask for an early hospital discharge once mom & baby are stable).

Mom &  RN   intactivist.gif
Pardon the typos - CWOK (cat walking on keyboard)   signcirc1.gif

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#40 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 09:46 PM
 
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...but that was at a hospital in Northern Virginia, where I think the circ rates were lower than they are here in Denver .
Are you planning to deliver at PSL in Denver? I work at a hospital in Ft. Collins and spend a reasonable amount of time visiting the NICU here b/c I teach a class for the parents. I know that our babies who are too young or small to stay up here go to PSL, so I imagine that the NICU nurses up here would be somewhat familiar with their practices. I'm going to be off line and out of the office for the next week, but I'll see if I can pick anyone's brain re circ rates down there and procedures.

I do agree that talking with you babies' nurses (on all shifts) and the charge nurses is a good idea just so they are familiar with your wishes and can let you know what the process is there. Like others have said, it isn't likely going to happen early on in a NICU stay, though, since it is usually done shortly before they send the babies home.
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#41 of 45 Old 08-04-2009, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Christa - we are planning to deliver at either P/SL or Rose, depending on how far I get. If before 30 weeks, we will probably go to P/SL; if after 30-32 weeks, probably at Rose because it's walking distance from our house, has a Level 3a NICU, and is a little smaller overall (therefore less intimidating) than P/SL. However, my MFM docs deliver at both, so either is still a possibility.

Any thoughts, experience, recommendations would definitely be appreciated. This whole pregnancy has been more or less a total disaster, sorry to say ... from violent vomiting since 6 weeks' gestation to a huge hemorrhage at 12.5 weeks to bedrest for the last 10 weeks ... *sigh* Somehow, "let's have a third" didn't seem nearly as crazy as it's turned out, with #3 and #4 on the way and mommy somewhat out of commission! But I think we will LOVE it if/when everyone is here, safe and sound, intact, and hopefully nursing up a storm Just have to make it until then!!

Thanks for offering to help - I really appreciate it. Feel free to PM me if easier.
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#42 of 45 Old 08-09-2009, 10:45 PM
 
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We just got home from being out of town. I'll see if I can find anything out for you.
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#43 of 45 Old 08-09-2009, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Night_Nurse View Post
Just wanted to chime in with my two cents...

Sure, while a doctor or nurse intentionally doing something like circ deliberately against the parents wishes is possible, it's very unlikely.
The U.S. is a very litigious society. Practically all the doctors and nurse I know work because they have families to support and bills to pay. Likewise, hospitals are in business to make a profit and there is so much competition their good standing in the community is highly prized (maybe it's a different story if they are the only hospital in a 50 mile radius or something).

I don't think a doctor/nurse/hospital would do something to a patient out of spite for fear of a lawsuit (rightfully so). If a doctor did this, not only would he/she be sued, but the insurance company would drop them and the hospital would most likely drop his/her admitting privileges. Without a hospital or insurance to back them, the doctor can't work, and can't pay his bills and looses his livelihood.
Ah, but if you read the whole bit (in the link) on the case in Dallas, apparently the doctor has been sued TWICE for it (and there's no telling how many other times he did it but just wasn't prosecuted for it) and was STILL allowed to continue practicing. The quoted case was settled for a mere $230,000 and the doctor was reprimanded for "failure to practice medicine in an acceptable manner." That's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, yet not only did he mutilate a child IN SPITE OF the parents, but this was his SECOND legal go-round for it!

So, while what you say is mostly true, when it comes to circumcision (and many obstetrically-related things), very rarely are there any true consequences. Doctors who circumcise an infant without parental consent, and especially AGAINST extremely vocal refusals, should lose their licenses at minimum, that is simply not the case for most. All because circumcision is seen as something that's "not the end of the world" (to quote the dear Dr. Taylor). It's this attitude that keeps RIC from falling under the same legal and ethical category as FGM.

- Emy . Single mom to DS nut.gif Ezra (15.12.05), angel2.gif Thames (reincarnated 18.04.08) and DD rainbow1284.gif babyf.gif Allora (11.02.11) and dog2.gif Hoppylactivist.gif  novaxnocirc.gif  waterbirth.jpg fambedsingle2.gif bfinfant.giffemalesling.GIFcd.gif

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#44 of 45 Old 08-10-2009, 10:30 AM
 
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I haven't read the three pages of replies, but I wanted to say that when my DS was born, we had to sign a refusal of consent for his vit K and eye prophylaxis. There was an "other" space, so I wrote circumcision and Hep B on there too. Maybe you could do something like that?

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#45 of 45 Old 08-10-2009, 11:09 AM
 
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Ah, but if you read the whole bit (in the link) on the case in Dallas, apparently the doctor has been sued TWICE for it (and there's no telling how many other times he did it but just wasn't prosecuted for it) and was STILL allowed to continue practicing. The quoted case was settled for a mere $230,000 and the doctor was reprimanded for "failure to practice medicine in an acceptable manner." That's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, yet not only did he mutilate a child IN SPITE OF the parents, but this was his SECOND legal go-round for it!
Just one correction. It was $23,000, not 230,000. Almost nothing in other words. Not much of a deterrent.

Single mom to the Crunchy Froglets, Keith and Carlin, twin boys born 1/30/09. Frozen for 10 years, now unleashed on the world.
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