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#31 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 09:59 AM
 
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So to make the assumption that some of us left our child intact becuase we do not have access to health care is terribly wrong.
I don't believe I made that assumption or implied it. If I did then I apologize because it's not what I meant. All I meant is that the routine doctor visits where the doctor checked my son were not a hassle for us timewise or financially because we were going anyway for vaccinations and it was covered by insurance.
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#32 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:03 AM
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I was active duty military when my boys were born. We had access to virtually free health care. Their penises were left in one piece....first, because I don't believe in performing cosmetic surgery on healthy people without their consent, and second, because the foreskin is a complex organ which serves a purpose.

As for my own anecdote....my boys had no penile problems regarding pain during separation. If there was any discomfort, it was obviously mild enough for them to keep it to themselves.
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#33 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:04 AM
 
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I don't believe I made that assumption or implied it. If I did then I apologize because it's not what I meant. All I meant is that the routine doctor visits where the doctor checked my son were not a hassle for us timewise or financially because we were going anyway for vaccinations and it was covered by insurance.
Maybe I misinterpreted your post, sorry.

Leaving your children intact is the healthy, natural, normal thing to do. If the foreskin was an unnecessary organ it wouldn't be there in the first place.

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#34 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:12 AM
 
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jimp, I wanted to welcome you because you seem like a thoughtful and reasonable person and I didn't want you to be frightened away by our fervor here. I noticed that at least one of your posts was deleted and that is simply because this is not a debate board. This is unequivocally a place that opposes circumcision in unconsenting individuals.
It's a real good board with concerned parents. Honestly, I never read TOS of websites so I guess I violated the rules but it wasn't done purposefully, I just didn't know!

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I have a question for you. You said you had a circumcision as an adult. I have no qualms with that because you got to make that choice for yourself. But why would you say that you wished it had been done to you as a baby? I truly just don't understand this reasoning. Don't you appreciate the choice you were given?
hmmm . . . I don't know if this violates TOS because an honest answer could be interpreted as advocating, so I'll do my best to answer without violating TOS.

It was expensive and painful. During recovery time, I couldn't work or do anything. I couldn't shower because you have to keep that area dry. Adhesions are not an issue for adults, nor is removal of too much foreskin because size is already known. But overall, it's easier on an infant because they heal so fast. My father also got his circumcision as an adult and he also wished he had it done as an infant. So with grandad and dad having the same feelings, the decision was made.
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#35 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:19 AM
 
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So does teaching your son to be respectful of his body, teaching to be monogamous, and waiting for marriage.
I wouldn't circumcise my daughter because it would lessen the chance of her contracting AIDS or an STD. I would teach her to be respectful of her body.
Well I plan to do all that along with safe sex (condoms) lecture, but teenage boys with raging hormones, they do a lot of dumb things.
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#36 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:29 AM
 
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It was expensive and painful. During recovery time, I couldn't work or do anything. I couldn't shower because you have to keep that area dry. Adhesions are not an issue for adults, nor is removal of too much foreskin because size is already known. But overall, it's easier on an infant because they heal so fast. My father also got his circumcision as an adult and he also wished he had it done as an infant. So with grandad and dad having the same feelings, the decision was made.
I don't have experience with a circumcised infant, I'll give you that. So even accepting that there is longer-lasting pain in adult circumcision, I still wouldn't circumcise my son. Perhaps that is because I know that the chances he would "need" to be circumcized later are extremely rare. I would not consent to an amputation of his foreskin unless he had gangrene, frostbite, malignancy or BXO. (I believe circumcision for any other reason is a choice-even if it is therapeutic, it is the choice of an extremely invasive treatment over any number of more conservative treatments such as prepuplasty.) And this: "Adhesions are not an issue for adults, nor is removal of too much foreskin because size is already known." Additionally, adult circumcision is less invasive because the foreskin is already separated from the glans. The resulting wound is relatively smaller. In an infant, the whole glans is an open wound. These are advantages my son can have in the miniscule chance that he does ever need to be circumcized later. He also could communicate his needs for pain relief and he, of course, would have had the use of his foreskin up until that point.

I hope your dad doesn't feel bad about not having you circumcized. You should tell him you appreciate that he gave you the chance to experience your whole penis.
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#37 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:33 AM
 
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You should tell him you appreciate that he gave you the chance to experience your whole penis.
: That is a great quote! I love it!

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#38 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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I had my son circumcised because at the time he was born, the first studies out of Africa were coming out, saying that circumcision before the age of 5 (?? maybe 8, I can't remember) helped prevent AIDS and other STDs, but circumcision after that magic age did not.

Have you got a link to this study, because I have not heard of it. The African studies I know of were all performed on consenting adults. I do not know of any done on babies and young children.
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#39 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 10:58 AM
 
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And this: "Adhesions are not an issue for adults, nor is removal of too much foreskin because size is already known."
I think this results from removal of too much skin. The ped who did my son's circ told me that this was not an issue with modern tools.

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Additionally, adult circumcision is less invasive because the foreskin is already separated from the glans. The resulting wound is relatively smaller. In an infant, the whole glans is an open wound.
I wouldn't know. I was covered in this soft yellow stuff, tight bandages and stitches. There are other reasons I didn't get into why I think it's better done as an infant. Let's just say the sight of a pretty girl caused a few stitches to pop prematurely and it hurt.

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I hope your dad doesn't feel bad about not having you circumcized. You should tell him you appreciate that he gave you the chance to experience your whole penis.
haha

I don't have those kind of conversations with my dad.
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#40 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 11:08 AM
 
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Have you got a link to this study, because I have not heard of it. The African studies I know of were all performed on consenting adults. I do not know of any done on babies and young children.
I read it in the paper. This was before my son was born, so 2001 to 2002 I would guess. They had data on AIDS rates in men circumcised before age 5 or 8, men circumcised after age 5 or 8, and intact men. My recollection is that the study was not definitive because they were looking at different tribes that had different customs. I think one tribe did circ. early, one did it as an initiation rite on young men, one didn't do it at all, something like that.

So the study's conclusion was it appears you should do it before age 5 or 8, but more studies have to be done because this study didn't have control factors.
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#41 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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The living conditions and lifestyles of those in Africa differ greatly from ours.

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#42 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
 
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It's a real good board with concerned parents. Honestly, I never read TOS of websites so I guess I violated the rules but it wasn't done purposefully, I just didn't know!



hmmm . . . I don't know if this violates TOS because an honest answer could be interpreted as advocating, so I'll do my best to answer without violating TOS.

It was expensive and painful. During recovery time, I couldn't work or do anything. I couldn't shower because you have to keep that area dry. Adhesions are not an issue for adults, nor is removal of too much foreskin because size is already known. But overall, it's easier on an infant because they heal so fast. My father also got his circumcision as an adult and he also wished he had it done as an infant. So with grandad and dad having the same feelings, the decision was made.
Did you suffer from infections growing up? Or were you always unhappy being intact?

You cannot in any way say it's "easier" on an infant. Infants can't talk and explain their discomfort to you. Yes, it will heal faster and yes, they won't remember it, but they have to defecate and urinate on their open wound. You don't.

To me, the possibility that making an irreversible decision that your son might not agree with on HIS body, outweighs the "discomforts" of adult circ.
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#43 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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10% seems awfully high based on my unscientific anecdotal evidence from my circle of friends.
10% is not anecdotal, it is the generally accepted rat at which circumcised boy get meatal stenosis. http://medgenmed.medscape.com/article/1016016-overview This is a separate number from the consevative 2% of boys who experience immediate surgical complications. It also is separate from other compilcations which statistics are not kept on, such as buried penis, adhesions (I've seen 70%, but it is not a hard #.)
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I had my son circumcised because at the time he was born, the first studies out of Africa were coming out, saying that circumcision before the age of 5 (?? maybe 8, I can't remember) helped prevent AIDS and other STDs, but circumcision after that magic age did not.
The studies actually show a slight reduction, in the 18 months immediately following the surgery on adults. As a man who was circumcised as an adult, I'm sure it was at least a couple of month before you felt like engaging in activities that could expose you to HIV.

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#44 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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Did you suffer from infections growing up? Or were you always unhappy being intact?
I didn't have any medical problems. I wasn't unhappy, I barely even thought about it. When I went through this board I was shocked it seemed so many parents were encountering with intact kids because I never had any medical issues at all. And I wasn't the most hygienic kid either.

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You cannot in any way say it's "easier" on an infant. Infants can't talk and explain their discomfort to you. Yes, it will heal faster and yes, they won't remember it, but they have to defecate and urinate on their open wound. You don't.
Come on now. As someone whose experienced it as an adult and took care of my son who was circ'd as an infant (my wife had a c-section and was out of it for a week), I do have some perspective. And healing faster is a big part of "easier."

My son's urinating and defecating on his circ'd penis was actually not a big deal to my surprise. I just had to change his diaper frequently and each time wrap his penis in sterile gauze pad loaded with Vitamin D cream. I went thru a big tube of Vitamin D in a week. Once he got some stool on his penis before it was fully healed and I have to admit, I was real concerned. But the doctor said don't pick it, just surround the whole thing in Vitamin D cream, and it worked. Each application of Vitamin D cream absorbed and drew out the stool.
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#45 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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I didn't have any medical problems. I wasn't unhappy, I barely even thought about it. When I went through this board I was shocked it seemed so many parents were encountering with intact kids because I never had any medical issues at all. And I wasn't the most hygienic kid either.
MOST people who have intact sons have no problems, and have no need to talk about the lack of issues they have. This is the rare board where people who DO have problems can request advice. (I have 3 intact sons with no problems...)

Like another pp said, 80-85% of the world's men are intact and healthy. The US is the only developed country that routinely circumcises its newborns. If problems being intact were really that common, the US likely wouldn't stand alone in this.



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Come on now. As someone whose experienced it as an adult and took care of my son who was circ'd as an infant (my wife had a c-section and was out of it for a week), I do have some perspective. And healing faster is a big part of "easier."
But you are not your son. Just because things heal faster doesn't mean they are easier.

Think about it. In an adult, the foreskin has already separated. In an infant, it hasn't. It's still fused to the glans, so before a circ can even take place the doctors have to skin the penis. Literally. So now you've got two open wounds (healing foreskin remnant and skinned glans). You may have thought differently about your own surgery if your glans had to be skinned and left raw as well.

In an adult, no one straps him down without proper anesthesia. But an infant is strapped down and something like 60some percent of doctors use either no anesthesia or a sugar-coated pacifier as anesthesia. Would you have liked to suck on sugar cubes during your surgery? And even when anesthesia is administered, many docs say the administration is almost as painful as the circ. (Plus there are the risks of injury to the penis and death from reactions).

An adult can keep his area dry and clean and doesn't have urine burning the wound, an infant cannot.

An adult has already reached full size whereas an infant hasn't. So an adult circ removes just what is desired to be removed. Sometimes infants get too much removed which can lead to tight, painful erections later, or get too "little" removed and suffer adhesions, skin bridges, etc.

An adult can request as many pain killers as he needs, and infant only gets Tylenol.

So just because it seemed easier to YOU, didn't mean it was really easier for your son.
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#46 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 03:40 PM
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I didn't have any medical problems. I wasn't unhappy, I barely even thought about it.
One might wonder, then, why someone who was perfectly happy with a perfectly good, healthy penis would choose to amputate part of it.

Did I miss something? Was it to prevent HIV?
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#47 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 04:15 PM
 
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One might wonder, then, why someone who was perfectly happy with a perfectly good, healthy penis would choose to amputate part of it.

Did I miss something? Was it to prevent HIV?
Well I didn't care but girls I dated did. While I was recovering, I admit thinking what a mistake. But after I healed up I prefer being circ'd. It is cleaner and easier to take care of.
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#48 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 04:38 PM
 
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MOST people who have intact sons have no problems, and have no need to talk about the lack of issues they have. This is the rare board where people who DO have problems can request advice.
I'd like to add to this, that often the issues people bring here aren't really problems, so much as insecurities and misconceptions. For a new mom, whose family hasn't had an intact boy in a few generations and has everyone warning her that there will be problems, simple diaper rash that occurs on the foreskin can cause her to panic. Then, you have the pediatricians who cry phimosis for children who simply haven't gone through the natural process of separation yet.

Many of the real problems also occur in circumcised boys anyway. The common problem of yeast infections is simply referred to as "jock itch" for circumcised men, same problem less clinical name. Of course people with circumcised babies who have these same issues/problem or other problems unique to circumcised boys, very rarely come here for help.

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#49 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 04:55 PM
 
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I'm surprised you went through a painful surgery to amputate part of your penis when you were perfectly happy with it. Just seems strange to me that you would let a few women that would have "preferred" you to have a circumcised penis talk you into such an invasive amputation. I certainly wouldn't have gotten circumcised because some man wanted me to be.

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#50 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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yeah... some men I dated 'preferred' me with fake boobs, tell me if I cared? they were superficialists I didn't care about and wasn't gonna marry a man like that anyway!

'healing faster' is not easier than taking care of an intact penis, and as for an adult, I mean you still need to know how to wipe your butt or brush your teeth, 5 seconds extra is not going to make a huge difference. I mean, I see adults don't ever clean their ear lobs, pretty waxy and yucky stuff accumulates in there and no one is chopping those off out off our kids.

Amputation to keep things clean is just a bit bizarre to me... It 's not like we are living in a dump, we live in America ya know...

Latina Mama of 3 and Wife of a great man since 1997
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#51 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 05:09 PM
 
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Amputation to keep things clean is just a bit bizarre to me... It 's not like we are living in a dump, we live in America ya know...

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#52 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 05:09 PM
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Amputation to keep things clean is just a bit bizarre to me... It 's not like we are living in a dump, we live in America ya know...
It's kind of like yanking all of your teeth so you won't have to brush them.

My boys and I talk pretty frankly about bodies and stuff, and we're all in agreement that they are better off without shallow girls/women in their lives.
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#53 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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I'm surprised you went through a painful surgery to amputate part of your penis when you were perfectly happy with it. Just seems strange to me that you would let a few women that would have "preferred" you to have a circumcised penis talk you into such an invasive amputation. I certainly wouldn't have gotten circumcised because some man wanted me to be.
I believe I said I had no medical problems and I wasn't unhappy with it, not "perfectly happy," there is a difference. And nobody talked me into it.

At the risk of digging myself into a deeper hole, the situation was that some girls refused to have sex with me due to being uncut, some girls insisted I wash up before, plus other incidents it's better not to discuss.

I wasn't insecure or embarrassed by any of this, just annoyed and frustrated. Anyway it was getting to be such a PITA I just got it done.
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#54 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 07:14 PM
 
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Huh, so, you had yourself circumcised because of bunch of women who probably had never been with an intact man "preferred" what they were used to?

My ex-boyfriend was (is still, I assume) intact and has never been turned down because of his status (he's been with a TON of women since dating me) and has never had any foreskin-related health issues. My dh is intact and has only been with me (so a fat lot of good any potential STD protection would have had in his case) and has also never had any foreskin-related health issues. We're both very grateful to his parents for not amputating parts of his genitals before he was even old enough to consent.

It probably is a generational thing... I only know one person my age or younger (mid-20s) who prefers circumcised penises and she's never been with an intact man and wouldn't be with an intact man. I say, that's her loss! Everyone else I know my age who has only been with circumcised men would love to find an intact man someday. The unknown is sometimes intriguing and very appealing. My friends who have been with both all prefer intact penises and all left their sons intact regardless of the father's circumcision status.

It shouldn't be okay for parents to force their sexual preferences on their children. It should be up to the child once he's a man or (as in your case) perhaps partly up to his sexual partner(s) if he's okay with that.

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#55 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 08:02 PM
 
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I believe I said I had no medical problems and I wasn't unhappy with it, not "perfectly happy," there is a difference. And nobody talked me into it.

At the risk of digging myself into a deeper hole, the situation was that some girls refused to have sex with me due to being uncut, some girls insisted I wash up before, plus other incidents it's better not to discuss.

I wasn't insecure or embarrassed by any of this, just annoyed and frustrated. Anyway it was getting to be such a PITA I just got it done.
Well, it was the social pressure that you clearly had that caused you to be less than perfectly happy with your natural body. Rather than something physically wrong with you and the intact penis.

Honestly, as a British person, you may know that here we don't circ, I find your story so sad and bizarre. I've heard it many times on American message board and it boggles my mind. That in America, surgically altered is seen as normal and people with their natural body parts as God gave them are seen as somehow abnormal, freakish, dirty. It's just crazy. I'm sorry you went through that

I'll say this as well. Living here I have had one cut partner and several intact ones. Of course it is anecdotal, but I do rather prefer intact, for the feeling is different, and I have never noticed a difference as far as cleanliness goes. Men still need to clean their bits regardless, cut or uncut. Out of respect for their partner imo people (not just men) should make sure they're clean before engaging in sex otherwise it's just not nice either way.
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#56 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 08:20 PM
 
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Huh, so, you had yourself circumcised because of bunch of women who probably had never been with an intact man "preferred" what they were used to?
Several of you have opposed infant circ. and advocated letting the kid make the choice when he is fully grown. I made the choice when I was grown. You may not agree with my choice, but I do have the right to do with my body what I want for whatever reason I want.

But yes, I got it done because it was interfering with my sex life. To me that's a good reason, it takes two to tango.

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It probably is a generational thing... I only know one person my age or younger (mid-20s) who prefers circumcised penises and she's never been with an intact man and wouldn't be with an intact man. I say, that's her loss! Everyone else I know my age who has only been with circumcised men would love to find an intact man someday. The unknown is sometimes intriguing and very appealing. My friends who have been with both all prefer intact penises and all left their sons intact regardless of the father's circumcision status.
Maybe, probably, I really don't know. I'm in my 40s and I don't ask young girls in their 20s about their penis preferences. I'm suspicious of claims that circ vs intact men are better sex partners. I think women have preferences and they like men who satisfy their preferences. Like I said, I don't have strong feelings about this. If I were 20 years younger and dating your generation of women, I wouldn't have circ.

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It shouldn't be okay for parents to force their sexual preferences on their children. It should be up to the child once he's a man or (as in your case) perhaps partly up to his sexual partner(s) if he's okay with that.
My son's circ. was not about sexual preferences. I believe I stated that my son was circ. because of African studies showing that boys circ. before 5 or 8 (can't remember exact age) received significant AIDS protection, whereas kids circ'd at later ages did not receive the same benefits. By the time confirmatory studies would be done, my son would miss that magic window. So my wife and I both agreed it's something that should be done before age 5, and given my experience, I thought it should be done earlier the better, and my wife deferred to me on that.
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#57 of 57 Old 08-31-2009, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, my goodness look what I started. I just wanted to come back and post that my DS doing somewhat better, still hurts a little when he urinates, but the warm water in a cup is helping a lot. We discussed that this is all perfectly normal and it means that he's growing up, that helped him understand that there isn't anything wrong with him. Also, after showing all the information I had found here to my DH he feels much better too. I am hoping the pain goes away soon, the articles I read stated that it should subside after about 48hrs, and we're going on 3 days now, that does make me a little bit worried still I'll have to admit. My first DS didn't experience anything like this so this was a whole new experience for us. I just wanted to thank all of you who have posted with information. This is why I love the mommas at MDC! :

Atara wife to Joseph mom to Kaleb and Jacob : Caeden Ashlyn : and our angel baby ,:,
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