A Child Dies from Circumscision - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 34 Old 02-15-2004, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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PENTICTON, B.C. -- A coroner looking into the death of a month-old boy who died of complications after being circumcised has said an instruction method ensuring the family's understanding of how to care for the infant after the surgery would have been helpful. Ryleigh McWillis died in a Vancouver hospital on Aug. 22, 2002, two days after he was circumcised in an elective day procedure at Penticton Regional Hospital.

Notice how the parent's are blamed with being incompetent, not the procedure being the cause.

Ugh. How many more have to die for the sake of gential alteration/mutilation?

Rest of article: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Calgar...15/348379.html
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#2 of 34 Old 02-15-2004, 05:14 PM
 
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They're Blaming It On The Parents!?!?

What Next?

Call It SIDS?

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#3 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 01:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by InfoisPower
Notice how the parent's are blamed with being incompetent

Well, who do you think they are going to blame???? Actually, I've seen them blame the baby! Do you think the doctor is going to take responsibility? Get serious! He's already up to his ear lobes in trouble. He is going to pass the blame and make the parents feel guilty as heck!

If he is unethical enough to circumcise, he's unethical enough to try to weasel out of it.




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#4 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 01:27 AM
 
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WHY DO PPL DO THIS??????/

I wouldnt think once about *circ*my daughters,so WHY in the world would I think about circ my son?

Leave thier bodies ALONE !

Thier bodies thier choice!
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#5 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 01:31 AM
 
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charmarty- I have a circumsized son. Please, for people like me that were uninformed, keep telling people about these terrible things that happen. I would NEVER circumsize my son if I could go back now. Unfortunately the majority of parents who allow this mutilation to occur are very uninformed. So are the doctors.
I feel so sad for this poor baby and his obviously uninformed parents. You can bet they are going to be anti-circ now.

My dh is circumsized and has a noticeable scar. I hate the medical establishment for allowing and encouraging this procedure
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#6 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 09:59 AM
 
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#7 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 10:23 AM
 
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Sad...

but I would not count on them being anti circ. A coworker of mine (Italian American Catholic Family) flipped on when I said I did not circ. my son. She went on to say her newborn twin nephews had been circed a few weeks prior b/c it has too be done!!! WTF?
She goes on to remind me how one twin almost died from blood loss ue to his botched circ., and has little penis left due to this, but it IS necessayr and that happens. Then again, she also said she'd never breastfeed cause her Moms breastmilk was "bad" according to the Dcotors and almost killed her brother.

this woman was 35yo and had a good education...
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#8 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 10:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by bebesho2
this woman was 35yo and had a good education...

Obviously, there are gaps in her education and those are glaringly obvious. Going beyond that is intelligence. As my Dad used to say, "You can educate an idiot and all you have is an educated idiot." Everyone is aware that there are men who live their entire lives with a foreskin and they never ask "How is this possible?" Even doctors who regularly see intact men who have no problems believe the old myths. How can that be? They are well educated but not very logical, rational or intelligent. That's really scary when we put our lives and health in the hands of these people. How can we expect more of lay people?





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#9 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattemma04
[I feel so sad for this poor baby and his obviously uninformed parents. You can bet they are going to be anti-circ now.
>>>>

I really wonder if they will be anti-circ,or just more informed on how to care for a cut penis in the future sons.

Either way I feel for the boys(and girls) going through this each day.
According to this article in the Province newspaper, the mother says she would still circumcise future sons...

http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/

After reading the coroner's report (and some more), I just can't see how any mother would risk this.

http://www.circumstitions.com/death-exsang.html#



Cindy

Lindsey (96/02/26)
Jason (00/06/08)
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#10 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 12:48 PM
 
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#11 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 12:55 PM
 
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Devil's advocate here!!

For one thing, for religious reasons my ds's are all circed. I don't think it's "mutilation" any more than someone that pierces their children's ears when they are infants (or under the a age of consent i.e 16-18 y/o!! ). Is that mutilation??! They weren't born with holes in their ears, and if they are infants they don't get the "say" if they want it or not. And a 4 y/o cannot give authorization to get their ears peirced so........................

As for the topic, it most certainly is the responsilbility of the parent if their child has had ANY procedure (tonsils/adnoids/circed/etc....) to monitor the recovery of their child!!!! (I do think the parents SHOULD have had written info regarding healing and what to look for/who to call if there is problems!! So that part is the doctor's/hospital's fault AND has nothing to do with the procedure!!!!) Truthfully, if someone wanted to circ their son then I would look for a moyhel (a Rabbi that is trained specifically in circ and ONLY in circ. In fact the British Royal Family - so I've always been told, though never verified - uses a moyhel when they circ.) Yes, there are problems that can happen with ANY procedure - my dh had a close friend die after surgery for "correcting" sleep apnea (I forget what the surgery is called) - would you call that procedure mutilation??? After all, he was born like that.

JMTC I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but...................I hate when people that make THEIR choices think everyone elses is WRONG!!! The same goes for anti-abortion advocates - I'm not for abortion, BUT the choice to decide what is best for the person is up to them AND the choice to choose needs to be protected.
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#12 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 01:05 PM
 
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Well, as a matter of fact, ear piercing IS mutilation when the baby cannot give consent. I am waiting to let my dd pierce her ears.
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#13 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 01:43 PM
 
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I don't mean to argue with you Layla, but I just wanted to point out that you are in a forum called The Case Against Circumcision.
Don't feel bad, I did it myself when I was new here...of course now I am against circumcision....but you probably will get flamed...just not by me
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#14 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 02:31 PM
 
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mutilate
verb [transitive]
1 to deprive of a limb, essential part, etc.; maim; dismember

2 to mar, expurgate, or damage (a text, book, etc)

[ETYMOLOGY: 16th Century: from Latin mutilare to cut off; related to mutilus maimed]

"muti'lation noun
'muti"lative adjective
'muti"lator noun


I do think circumcision fits the definition.

It is my hope that in the future the religious,social,and medical reasons people cite for circumcising children can be replaced by something less invasive and damaging. We do not need to be doing this to our children.
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#15 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 03:44 PM
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Mama2Many,
Re-read the rules of the board. You are not supposed to post here in DEFENSE of circumcision. Goodbye!
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#16 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 04:10 PM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mama2many
[B]Devil's advocate here!!

In fact the British Royal Family - so I've always been told, though never verified - uses a moyhel when they circ.)


Diana REFUSED to have her sons circ'd like their father. So the future KING OF ENGLAND and HRH Prince Harry are Both INTACT.


I understand you do not believe circ is mutilation. Of course not. To be mutilation would mean you were a mutilator. A bit too hard to swallow. It was for me. I have a circ'd son. And thanks to education I have 2 intact sons.

Give it some time. It will sink in.
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#17 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 04:23 PM
 
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How sad
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#18 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 04:33 PM
 
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many a teenage mother has had her baby taken away, and then subsequent children, for neglect, malnutrition etc.

if these people continue to insist that they would circ future (male) children, after the homicide-by-willful-ignorance of their first infant, what kind of society permits them to inflict this upon other kids? god, i know why eric gets so pissed off. i'd like to circumcise their brains. ugh, ugh, ugh.

poor little baby. if they had expressed regret i would give them l my prayers and sympathy; but i have no sympathy for people who choose to be that stupid, stupid enough to kill their baby and then choose to do it all over again rather than admit they were wrong.

suse

ps i'm supposing they are the world's first parents to have not recieved umpteen pamphlets on circ wound care after having a baby? : because god knows know no one could figure out wound care without the precious pamphlet...
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#19 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 05:51 PM
 
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poor little baby. if they had expressed regret i would give them l my prayers and sympathy; but i have no sympathy for people who choose to be that stupid, stupid enough to kill their baby and then choose to do it all over again rather than admit they were wrong.
ITA. Their baby is DEAD because of TOTALLY UNNECESSARY COSMETIC SURGERY and they'd do it all over again? The phrase "Darwin Award" is coming to mind...

And last I checked, piercing ears didn't a) run the risk of bleeding to death and b) even if 100% "complication free" remove 50% of the skin and nerves from the most sensitive part of a baby's body, leaving him without full sexual functioning. Sure, I'm against piercing baby's ears but no way can piercing an ear and ripping off the most sensitive part of a baby's penis be called comparable.

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#20 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mama2many
Truthfully, if someone wanted to circ their son then I would look for a moyhel (a Rabbi that is trained specifically in circ and ONLY in circ.
Well, except that only a precious few mohels have any medical training whatsoever, are not allowed to administer any anesthesia and have absolutely no malpractice insurance. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Anyone recall the mohel that was arrested for DUI as he was driving between circumcision appointments?


Quote:
my dh had a close friend die after surgery for "correcting" sleep apnea (I forget what the surgery is called) - would you call that procedure mutilation??? After all, he was born like that.
Sorry, that argument just doesn't work. First, it was a procedure he chose for himself with the risks understood. There has never been a baby choose circumcision or understood the risks. Secondly, there was a problem to be resolved. Babies being circumcised are normal and natural and have no problems except someone has a problem with their genitals. That argument fails miserably.


Quote:
JMTC I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but...................I hate when people that make THEIR choices think everyone elses is WRONG!!!BUT the choice to decide what is best for the person is up to them AND the choice to choose needs to be protected.
Absolutely! You thought your baby's desire to avoid pain was wrong. The choice to decide what is best for the person is up to them. You write this after denying that choice to your very own sons. That choice does in fact need to be protected, not stolen away as you did to your very own off spring. Instead of protecting your son, you betrayed him.




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#21 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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This is so sad!
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#22 of 34 Old 02-16-2004, 11:29 PM
 
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poor baby


when will it stop???? needless deaths

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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#23 of 34 Old 02-17-2004, 05:19 AM
 
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mama2many, would you still think this was ok if it was a girl being circ'ed?

BTW I'd never pierce my child's ears. When they reach an age where they can be responsible for that choice, then I will allow them to if they wish. But I'd never pierce their ears as a baby.

Lisa, mama to Orion (7) , Fiona Star (born sleeping @ 38wks 12/6/08) , our bitty (m/c 7/27/09) , and Charlotte Athena (11/5/10)
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#24 of 34 Old 02-18-2004, 08:36 PM
 
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http://www.canada.com/vancouver/thep...9-2b634e4302d0


"But Tanna McWillis says she and her husband, Brent, a medical professional who worked at the hospital at the time of his son's death,"

And they are blaming the HOSPITAL for improper care instructions? The father was a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL who should've known darned well that a bleeding baby needs medical attention!!

Hold the parents responsible in this case. There is no excuse for this kind of ignorance.
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#25 of 34 Old 02-18-2004, 10:02 PM
 
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Do circ.s usually bleed? You would think any amount of bleeding (other than a little drop or two) would have been a huge red flag. Not to mention the other signs a person exhibits when bleeding out. i do think these parent should be blamed. when you take responsibility for intentionally cutting off the body part of a child you had better dam* well be imformed on how to take care of them.

I htink the role of the hospital ought to be investigated. Unless these people did something to make thier son bleed then the hospital messed up. And bothparties who contributed to this babies death need to be help acountable. And every parent having this done needs to know that bleeding to death is a likely complication.

It is beginning to seem like every familyI know who has had this done has had some sort of complication. Most of them (unfortunately not all) were wise enough to not have it done to thier next son. at least they learned. good grief. i need to go :Puke !

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#26 of 34 Old 02-19-2004, 06:27 PM
 
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If the circumcision is done correctly, there should be no post op bleeding. What happens is the doctor is rushing to get finished and doesn't allow adequate time for the clamp to crush the foreskin and seal the blood vessels. After the child leaves, any slightly rough handling can break the inadequate seal and the child starts bleeding. Pretty much a rule of thumb is that if the child isn't gone at least an hour, they rushed it and have caused the child immeasureable pain and have endangered his life. That happens in the majority of circumcisions and only the luck of the draw keeps physicians out of the courtroom.





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#27 of 34 Old 02-20-2004, 12:02 PM
 
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#28 of 34 Old 02-20-2004, 12:45 PM
 
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I am so appalled that boys continue to die from this uneccesary procedure. That is a terrible story.

Queen Lizzie circumcised her boys? That seems very odd, I wonder why? Probably something to do with Philip and his weirdness. I am glad that Di refused for hers but over here it is generally only done (nowadays) for religious reasons. Every man that I have spoken to about the States continuation of routine infant circumcision has been one of outrage!


Oh and T.

If we still have a royal family by the time William gets the throne he will be King of Britain not just England (although that could be debatable and TBH I hope we get rid of them).
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#29 of 34 Old 02-20-2004, 01:15 PM
 
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@ PinkSunfish (quite off-topic as well):

As far as I know, circumcision used to be a sign for the upper class and aristocracy in Britain. Queen Elizabeth probably didn't have much of a choice. I don't think it has anything to do with Prince Philip, however strange he might be. He's originally from Germany, right? Aristocrats and royal families here – long are they gone – never adopted infant circumcision.

What I am wondering when I'm reading about this: In school (in connection with genetics) I learned that the British (and some other European) royal families used to have hemophilia running in the family, mainly because of long centuries of intermarrying among each other. They're lucky that this combination never led to any tragedy. Just imagine – finally, the successor to the throne is born, and tragically dies due to his medically unnecessary circumcision only days later. : But probably the hemophilia problem was already dealt with when the circumcision mania started.

Stardust

Edit: Disastrous spelling.
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#30 of 34 Old 02-20-2004, 02:43 PM
 
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" fair amount of bleeding is normal" OK but to me fair amount means spotting or a circle of blood in the daiper. not a soaked diaper. Those parents were terrible neglegent.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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