Can I talk to moms that have both? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 56 Old 11-18-2009, 10:09 PM
 
fruitful womb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 2,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
Well, I knew this was a difficult topic, but I'm surprised and disappointed to see that everyone (except Juvyson) is apparently just dodging it! I thought it could be an interesting and fruitful topic to kick around, and something that goes beyond the obvious and straightforward arguments we make over and over.
Maybe...

not intentionally...

dodging it, that is...

Its not a topic that I've been able to articulate.

I've said repeatedly, to him, that I'm sorry. What more can I do? Well, a lot... if you think of it.

These plans are in place but isn't something I'd rather discuss right now.

I've stressed to him how important it is to protect his own sons. "Oh I WILL!" he says.

He doesn't go around with a dark cloud over his head. He has other ambitions right now. His education keeps his mind on more a positive path.

If the discussion has an opportunity to present itself, then say only what is relavent according to the child's age. If he is older, elaborate your answer. If he is young, keep it simple.
fruitful womb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 of 56 Old 11-18-2009, 11:21 PM
Banned
 
SlackerDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post
Please point out where I said that lying was the best solution.
Well, you didn't seem to like my plan of saying "we didn't do it to your brother, but it was too late for you". Did I misunderstand you? That is, do you mean there's a better way to convey the same information? Or are you making a distinction between "lying" and "concealing the truth"? I'm confused.
SlackerDad is offline  
#33 of 56 Old 11-18-2009, 11:30 PM
 
zinemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: from the fire roads to the interstate
Posts: 6,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
Well, you didn't seem to like my plan of saying "we didn't do it to your brother, but it was too late for you". Did I misunderstand you? That is, do you mean there's a better way to convey the same information? Or are you making a distinction between "lying" and "concealing the truth"? I'm confused.
Pitting brother against brother in such a way as to make one of them feel messed up for life ("it was too late for you") seems like an unnecessarily cruel thing to say to a boy. Do you have a son?
zinemama is offline  
#34 of 56 Old 11-19-2009, 12:00 AM
Banned
 
SlackerDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post
Pitting brother against brother in such a way as to make one of them feel messed up for life ("it was too late for you") seems like an unnecessarily cruel thing to say to a boy. Do you have a son?
Yes, I have a nine year old son (and a six year old daughter).

I never denied any of these approaches were problematic. But that's precisely why it's something we ought to discuss, because it will be something many families have to figure out, and if people who have already circed one son but are having another one come here to talk about it, we ought to have real answers to give them (and I'm sorry, for me the ones that seek to pretend like it's no big deal don't cut the mustard).

You still haven't said, if you don't like the statement I offered, what you would prefer to say. Maybe what you have in mind is much better, but you seem to just want to criticise what I put forward instead of putting forward a suggestion of your own.

ETA: Do you believe it's untrue to say that one son was "messed up for life"? Isn't that the case we normally make on this board?
SlackerDad is offline  
#35 of 56 Old 11-19-2009, 02:08 AM
 
fruitful womb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 2,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think the message is better received if its not done as an attack.

I worry for the child who is condemned because of the way their penis 'looks' and 'functions'.



The main goal is to teach our circ'd son(s) to break that cycle. We do this by instilling the value of genital integrity, while at the same time, keep their self esteem intact.



I've read your excellent example for the case of deaf parents. They think they're "just fine". So-much-so, they want to genetically engineer a deaf offspring.



Its interesting to see how these same parents can ignore all the senses that make us more effective in our society.



In the case of a grown circ'd man, who was brought up to think they're "just fine", when they're challenged with the idea that they're missing the senses their genetic blueprint designed them for, they too ignore the senses that make their member more effective.


How to keep them from, what I like to refer to as, "The Semmelweis Reflex"?


The honest truth with facts & very little emotive dialect.


Instead, focus on the matter of CHOICE: "That choice was taken from you, I'm so sorry".



Rather than, "intact men are better than you are."


Where is the empathy in all this?


The last thing we want to do is provoke a backlash. To some circ'd men, the very action to adamantly want their son circ'd - like they are, is a "pay back" / "revenge" reaction.


Just as we strive to instill the moral of empathy within our intact sons towards circumcised men, we need to nurture the same kind of empathy within our circumcised sons too.


While at the same time, help build for them a healthy self esteem so they don't inflict this onto their own sons.
fruitful womb is offline  
#36 of 56 Old 11-19-2009, 05:52 AM
Banned
 
SlackerDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Fruitful Womb, I had never heard of the Semmelweis Reflex, but I just Googled it and boy, is that spot on.

I liked what you had to say in general in that post--good insights. But what would you advise parents of one circed boy and one intact boy to say to their sons when they are still children?
SlackerDad is offline  
#37 of 56 Old 11-19-2009, 06:01 AM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not Fruitful Womb but I think that when they are children you need to take into account your childs age as well as what they are capable of understanding. As the child ages you can add to what you originally told him.

I honestly dont think there is a set in stone way of going about the conversation. What works for one child will not work for another.

My thinking right now is for a young child a simple "everyone is different" would work. Then later add to that "some boys had part of their penis removed after birth" then keep adding to it over the years explaining why it was done. Working up to eventually providing resources so that the boy/young man can look into restoration.

There has been at least one mom post about what she told her older (around 5-6yo) cired ds and his reply was something like I am glad you didnt do that to my brother.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is offline  
#38 of 56 Old 11-19-2009, 05:55 PM
 
nummies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: in a state of love
Posts: 3,145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
Interesting, thanks for contributing to the discussion. I can't imagine how hard this must be for you. And I certainly can't claim to know what would have happened had I not had the luck of being intact. I consider my parents progressive, enlightened people; but they would have circed me (as my father was) had I been born in the U.S. I could easily imagine circing an older son (after all, it was about three months before my first was born that I ever even heard of cosleeping or attachment parenting for the first time, and that was just because someone on a Babycenter DDC pitched the idea to me) and then later learning better.

So how will you decide when the day has come? As you say, you apologised when he was way too young to understand, and at some point when he can really understand you will do so "for real"...but in between there there is a range of ages when you probably wouldn't want to say anything because it would be too confusing. It's really tough I think to figure on when is the right time, what to say, and how to keep it from being damaging to his self esteem and so on.
Obviously I can't really predict when the day has come. I imagine it will come when he is old enough to understand the differences between body parts in himself and his brothers. I think that it will be hard to strike a balance between apologizing without making him feel as though his body is lacking. I think that I will focus on "choice". "Sorry that we took the choice away from you. It was wrong of us. It is so important for people to be able to choose what happens to their bodies. We really hope that you will allow your own children to choose."

Three boys.  jumpers.gif
nummies is offline  
#39 of 56 Old 11-20-2009, 03:19 AM
Banned
 
SlackerDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nummies View Post
Obviously I can't really predict when the day has come. I imagine it will come when he is old enough to understand the differences between body parts in himself and his brothers. I think that it will be hard to strike a balance between apologizing without making him feel as though his body is lacking. I think that I will focus on "choice". "Sorry that we took the choice away from you. It was wrong of us. It is so important for people to be able to choose what happens to their bodies. We really hope that you will allow your own children to choose."
That's a really good point!
SlackerDad is offline  
#40 of 56 Old 11-23-2009, 09:35 PM
 
melanie_rabbitbarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have an intact son and have NEVER had any poo inside his foreskin, thanks to his sphincter muscle. I did change a poopy diaper on a circed 3 year old once and I did have to retract to clean poo out from under what was left of his foreskin. Honestly, I had to 'mess' with his penis more in one diaper change than I have had to over my 20 month old's whole life of diaper changes.
melanie_rabbitbarn is offline  
#41 of 56 Old 11-24-2009, 01:21 AM
 
LaffNowCryLater's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have one of each and the intact one is way easier. In about 2-3 weeks I will be having my second intact son

Mom of 3 sons and one daughter
LaffNowCryLater is offline  
#42 of 56 Old 11-26-2009, 01:43 AM
 
heatherweh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Care for both is exactly the same (one son circ'd one intact), very minimal. I mean, wipe off any visible poo or maybe wipe if a diaper has been on awhile to get off any ammonia, but really there is nothing special to do for either. The only difference is care of the circumcised penis directly after the procedure of course, when it needed to be cleaned as an open wound. It makes me so sad to think of the pain my first went through and that it could have been prevented if we had only been more informed/proactive about it.

Book lovin librarian nerd mama to Caleb 6/06 and Aiden 4/09: and 1 angel 11/07. "No one cries alone in my presence."
heatherweh is offline  
#43 of 56 Old 11-29-2009, 07:33 PM
 
Frank Koehler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There are bigger issues are stake here than convenience for the diaper changer. After all, girls without labia are easier to clean, too. The reason is simple: If you cut it off you don't have to clean it. Same would go for ears and toes. The real issue is human rights. He has a right to an intact body that supercedes your "right" to easy childcare.
Frank Koehler is offline  
#44 of 56 Old 12-01-2009, 10:58 AM
 
BlessedMommy2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Koehler View Post
There are bigger issues are stake here than convenience for the diaper changer. After all, girls without labia are easier to clean, too. The reason is simple: If you cut it off you don't have to clean it. Same would go for ears and toes. The real issue is human rights. He has a right to an intact body that supercedes your "right" to easy childcare.
I agree with that except for one thing: circumcision actually makes care of the penis HARDER, not easier and makes diaper changes HARDER, not easier.

Adhesions, skin bridges, leftover foreskin, meatal ulceration, after surgery care, etc. etc.
BlessedMommy2006 is offline  
#45 of 56 Old 12-03-2009, 05:32 AM
 
robertandenith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


I don't know how people keep a circ'ed baby clean because I suppose stuff gets into the urethra, yikes!

My boy never had an issue with poop in there, it's soooo easy. Actually, way easier than my girls - NO KIDDING!!

I hope you are able to keep your future sons intact, like the saying: "Two wrong don't make one right." There are MANY mamas like you in this forum, so you are welcome to stick around!

Latina Mama of 3 and Wife of a great man since 1997
: : : : : : :
robertandenith is offline  
#46 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 05:18 AM
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,009
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
Also, on the other side of the scary story issue, I've heard scary stories about ... circed boys who ended up being recirced for one reason or another.
My cousin's son was circed twice because they did a loose circ the first time and there was "too much" foreskin left, so he looked like he hadn't been circed. His doctor and parents both found that unacceptable, so they did it over.
Plummeting is offline  
#47 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 10:24 AM
 
Bellabaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gex, France
Posts: 826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just some perspective. I haven't read all the posts and I don't have a son yet. But DH is not circ'd. Actually most men in Europe aren't. The US is probably the only if not one of the only countries that routinely circ with no religious reason. SO that means there are entire countries of men out there who aren't circd. So it can't be that hard or scary to take care of right?

Mamma to dd1 3/8/07, one 9.5.08, and dd2 9/9/09
Bellabaz is offline  
#48 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
 
onlyboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 3,578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is an interesting discussion.

We have one circed boy and three intact. The discussion happened very early on as my oldest son was 5 years old when his brother was born. The discussion about differences in penises was always gentle and age-appropriate.

This means, of course, that when my oldest son became old enough to understand what a circumcision is, we told him. While I never would want to make him feel somehow not protected or inadequate, I did want to make it clear that the choice that I took away from him is not one he should make for his sons. I was thinking very long term when I told him that I regretted allowing him to be circumcised. I'm very glad I told him and I feel like it's opened up areas of discussion that can be hard to start.
onlyboys is offline  
#49 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 12:05 PM
2xy
 
2xy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't have time to read all the replies, but I don't think apologies are necessary unless the child brings it up himself. Seriously. I think going overboard with apologies could give the kid a complex. "I never realized my penis was ruined...I guess I might be pretty messed up."
2xy is offline  
#50 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Panserbjorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Great North
Posts: 11,992
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummeting View Post
My cousin's son was circed twice because they did a loose circ the first time and there was "too much" foreskin left, so he looked like he hadn't been circed. His doctor and parents both found that unacceptable, so they did it over.
This is what happened to us, but with NO consent. The issue wasn't even broached. The doc just started cutting again. It was horrifying (to be fair, it was horrifying much before that.) I still get nauseated 7 years later thinking about it. Worst thing I have ever done. I'm pretty clear it will haunt me for the rest of my life. Anyway, I would never EVER do it again.

As far as ease, intact penis' are far easier to care for. And, as an added bonus nothing has been hacked off of your baby.

We have been questioned by our kids as to why they are different. It's never glossed over. We have taken the route of "when ds1 was born we were told it was important to do by the people we trusted. By the time ds2 was born we had been able to find more information and after reviewing it chose not to do it again." We have apologized and said something along the lines of being sorry to have taken that choice away.

It's hard because I very much feel that he got the short end of the stick in many ways at times....but he's a very well adjusted and happy kid despite it all. For that I am thankful, but it's certainly not an argument that they can still turn out okay. I'd never, ever do that to a child again.
Panserbjorne is offline  
#51 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
AFWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertandenith View Post

I hope you are able to keep your future sons intact, like the saying: "Two wrong don't make one right." There are MANY mamas like you in this forum, so you are welcome to stick around!
I'll be honest...I still don't know for sure. I know I started this thread and then kind of phased out. Some of what was said upset me and I'm not sure how to respond........

Yeah...

Kas (24), Helpmeet to Stefan (25), Mom to Franklin Gaudelio 4/15/09, Jonathan Boswell 1/2/11
AFWife is offline  
#52 of 56 Old 12-04-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Fellow Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Formerly JWhispers
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
I'll be honest...I still don't know for sure. I know I started this thread and then kind of phased out. Some of what was said upset me and I'm not sure how to respond........

Yeah...
I am sorry to hear that you found some of the responses upsetting. That is certainly not our intent and (without knowing which responses you're referring too) I hope you don't take anything personally. Please don't let a difficult response push you away. We really want to be a resource for parents like you but sometimes our "passion" does get in the way.

To reiterate my response 'hygiene' is not problematic in anyway, that is a myth. And truthfully siblings rarely notice or care about such a difference anymore than they might notice or care about hair or eye color.
Fellow Traveler is offline  
#53 of 56 Old 12-05-2009, 12:14 AM
 
bscal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've given this a LOT of thought. I had 2 girls and then our son. We had him circ'd because my husband very strongly believed it should be done. My OB did a VERY loose circ on him, which is good in some respects as I hope that should he decide later on to restore it will make it much easier for him. (Really she didn't cut much at all, you can bring all the foreskin up to completely cover the end of his penis.) It's also bad in other respects as we spent 18 months dealing with repeated adhesions. Poor little guy. And it's a total PITA to clean with all those folds of skin in the way.

I'd like to have a 4th child at some point and I've already informed my DH that should we have another son that I will not permit him to be circ'd. I don't want to put another child through the pain of surgery and possible adhesions.

I've learned quite a bit reading this particular board. And I've learned that apparently there are many other mamas/dadas out there that have made the same choice to leave future sons intact.

And yes, once my son has reached an appropriate age we will discuss circumcision and go over why we thought it was the right thing to do at the time and assist him if he's interested in restoration.

Beth
bscal is offline  
#54 of 56 Old 12-06-2009, 12:04 AM
 
BlessedMommy2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
I'll be honest...I still don't know for sure. I know I started this thread and then kind of phased out. Some of what was said upset me and I'm not sure how to respond........

Yeah...
I'm sorry that you were hurt. I'm sure that that wasn't the intent of the posters, but sometimes it's easy to stick the proverbial foot in the mouth when dealing with such a sensitive issue that provokes such strong feelings.

I hope that you stick around.
BlessedMommy2006 is offline  
#55 of 56 Old 12-08-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Eherrera329's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NC USA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post
I only haven an intact son, but no, you don't need to clean out his foreskin at all after a poop... the hardest part for me is making sure there's no bits left in the wrinkles on his scrotum. Just wipe the penis off like a finger, beyond that. the foreskin is FUSED to the head on an intact baby - the same way your fingernail is fused to your finger, so no poo really gets IN there, in my experience...
^The scrotum is tricky to get all cleaned when he explodes!

Mami Herrera. Mama to a German/Mexican little girl [4/07] and new baby boy [11/09]
Anti-Circ, babywearing, breastfeeding, treehugging, vegetarian mama!
Eherrera329 is offline  
#56 of 56 Old 12-08-2009, 05:07 PM
 
stiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
I'll be honest...I still don't know for sure. I know I started this thread and then kind of phased out. Some of what was said upset me and I'm not sure how to respond........

Yeah...
Well, I for one think it's amazing that you're trying to keep an open mind, especially when some responses are unhelpful and unnecessarily critical. I'm sure if you weed through the responses, you'll find some parents who have gone through the same thing as you and can offer support. Also, consider using the ignore function when necessary, lol! Good luck!
stiss is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off