From ABC News, Sex is equally satisfying with or without all the parts - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 26 Old 12-19-2009, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=9364015

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The study, published in the latest issue of BJU International, did not examine the effect of circumcision on male sexual satisfaction. But one of the study's authors, Dr. Ronald H. Gray, told Reuters Health in an email, "We previously reported on this and found no effects on (male sexual) function or satisfaction."

The finding could help curb the spread of HIV/AIDS by allaying widespread concern that women find sex with circumcised men less satisfying. "The finding that circumcision does not adversely affect female satisfaction should increase acceptability of the procedure," said Gray, who is a professor of population and family planning at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore.
Oh, and this just about made me CHOKE:

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"If we can get a significant proportion of men circumcised, it will drop the prevalence of HIV over the next 10 to 20 years.
I'm sure that's why the US, with it's overwhelming majority of adult men having been circed, there is vitually NO AIDS to speak of. (Sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.)

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#2 of 26 Old 12-19-2009, 07:35 PM
 
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Funny, today I was reading this web page from a doctor that does labiaplasty which is basically FGM but these are women who seek it out.

http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/la...cal-study.html

Their findings:

* The study found an overall satisfaction rate of 97.2% for women undergoing labiaplasty and clitoral hood reduction,
* An overall satisfaction rate of 83% in women having a vaginal tightening procedure (vaginoplasty/perineoplasty), and 91.2% for women combining both “outer” and “inner” work.
* The clinical study also cited data specifically regarding improvement in sexual satisfaction with 92.8% of women having both experienced improvement in their sexual satisfaction.
* The data also revealed that those women undergoing vaginal tightening (vaginoplasty) reported an estimated 82.2% overall improvement in their partner’s sexual satisfaction as well.

So I suppose that makes it OK to do FGM. At least by the logic of those other researchers.
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#3 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 11:21 AM
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Another similar article

It's also important to have realistic expectations: Both cut and uncut penises work the same way; they just look a little different. And no matter what you decide, either way is normal and healthy.


http://www.plannedparenthood.org/tee...envy-25149.htm
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#4 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But they DON'T work the same way, and only one way (intact) is "normal".

The foreskin does have a functional part to play in sex. For one thing, it helps keep the woman's natural lube in place where it is needed. There's more, but I don't think we can describe them here.

It is no more normal to have a penis with the foreskin cut off than it is to have a hand with the fingers cut off.

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#5 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, tlh, I thought YOU were saying either way is normal. But that's a quote from the article you posted, isn't it.

Where do these people get off describing an amputated body part as "normal"?!

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#6 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 01:01 PM
 
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What upsets me about these studies, as well as pretty much every study about circ's sexual effects, is they never look at circ'd men's partners and how satisfied THEY are! this seems to say to me that the researchers think circ would only effect one person involved in the love making OR they honestly don't care about both persons satisfaction, only the circ'd male.
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#7 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 01:17 PM
 
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Except the fact that circumcision cuts into important veins (blood return) and possibly an artery (in the frenulum; blood supply). This alters the normal vascularity and ultimately the physiology of the penis, forcing a complex healing by putting capillaries into different duty. This affects the amount of blood that reaches the meatus -- likely an important component of meatal stenosis and the chief reason almost all intact men have functional meatal lips and most circumcised men don't. The meatal lips are the culmination of the raphe and are direct beneficiaries of the frenular artery. The lips, of course, are what close tightly together to keep pathogens out of the urethra. Another marvel of nature.

Also, the veins running through the foreskin ensure that in its relaxed, forward position the prepuce is not just a blanket, but a heated blanket. This in turn regulates the temperature of the glans, which in turn helps determine how close to the body the testicles ride (cool=closer to body=less sperm produced). Most circumised males have a consistently colder glans than intact males; some have an uncomfortably cold glans, particularly after sitting for long periods or after sports.

The efficiency of bloodflow through the foreskin & glans is a factor in proper tumescence and detumescence, though the body works mightily to overcome the vascular obstacles posed by the severing of a significant chunk of the venous system of the penis through circumcision. The alternate "mapping" the body is forced to do after iatrogenic injury is a marvel of nature, but never quite as effective as the original.

One of the foreskin's primary functions is to serve as an "early alert" system to tumescence; it is ultra-sensitive to any change in diameter of the glans and lets a male know well in advance of any change. Obviously, without a foreskin there is no monitoring of the glans and some circumcised males joke that they are well on their way to erection before they realize it. Not a big problem in most settings, but also not the way the body was designed to work.

The skin of the penis is unique on all the body, in that it is not attached to the underlying fascia. You can actually roll the tip of the foreskin all the way down to the pubic bone (depending on the elasticity of the frenulum). The body achieves this through a complexly-evolved nerve system that does not have the nerve endings run down from layer to layer as on the rest of the body; but rather, laterally in a specialized structure that allows complete freedom of the gliding top layer of skin. This means that the nerve endings are in fact attached to the body only at their extreme ends -- the pubis, and where the foreskin doubles back again and "ends" at the sulcus behind the glans. Since the rested foreskin is doubled-over, any cut that "shortens" it in this doubled state actually removes a cylindrical section from this sleeve, short-circuiting the complex nerve structure. Again, the body springs into action to repair this injury by having nerve endings attach over time to whatever nerves are nearby; but the section of the brain that corresponds to the nerve endings severed through circumcision go "black" and remain that way.

Circumcision, as a wound, also lays down a complex and irrreversible system of fibroblasts at the site of the circumcision scar, between layers of skin and the underlying fascia. Invisible to the naked eye, this dense web of cells defeats the purpose of the unique outer skin structure of the penis by creating an "anchor" which limits the mobility of the shaft skin and its gliding mechanism so important to sex.

So perhaps these articles report that both circumcised and intact penises look and function the same way, but they fail to explain what is really happening. You can have an Andrew Wyeth original painting or you can have a cardboard poster of it that you bought at the National Gallery gift shop, and they do same same thing in your hallway; but they're not the same.
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#8 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by intactDS View Post
What upsets me about these studies, as well as pretty much every study about circ's sexual effects, is they never look at circ'd men's partners and how satisfied THEY are! this seems to say to me that the researchers think circ would only effect one person involved in the love making OR they honestly don't care about both persons satisfaction, only the circ'd male.
You might want to go read the first article linked in this thread. They are talking about women's persception of sex with circed or intact men. They mention briefly that they already did a study on the guys, and of course in their previous study, it showed basically no difference.

Sometimes it just amazes me how ingrained circ IS in our culture, that some will actively deny that cutting off the most sensitive part, the ONLY moving part in sex, has ANY effect at all on sex for either partner.

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#9 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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I was not asked to participate in this study. I would have swayed the data to a different conclusion.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#10 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 03:54 PM
 
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And of course the womens' possible underlying prejudices about intact penises would have nothing to do w/ outcome of the study right?

Wife to dh, Mommy to ds1 12/2002, ds2 9/2005, and ds3 9/2008.
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#11 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 03:57 PM
 
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I was not asked to participate in this study. I would have swayed the data to a different conclusion.

Me too.
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#12 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 04:03 PM
 
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i was not asked to participate in this study. I would have swayed the data to a different conclusion.
ditto!
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#13 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 04:35 PM
 
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This is a little off topic, but I just watched the latest NBC report on RIC. Intact America sent out an email today with a link to it. Does anyone know if Ann Curry was talking about her own son being circumcised at the end of the segment or was she referring to Nancy Snyderman's son? Mrs. Curry did mention the look like daddy argument was "not a good reason". The entire segment was rather biased tho, as per usual

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#14 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 04:46 PM
 
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Wow brant31, penises are amazing! I never knew the whole organ was so complex. I'm so glad I live in Europe where they don't routinely mutilate the genitals of babies of either sex.

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#15 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
You can have an Andrew Wyeth original painting or you can have a cardboard poster of it that you bought at the National Gallery gift shop, and they do same same thing in your hallway; but they're not the same.
Wow, Brant31! PM'd you
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#16 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 07:45 PM
 
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Anther study conducted in Uganda. After the women were told that it would prevent HIV infection. Gee, there couldn't have been any biases or methodological flaws or anything there.

Single mom to the Crunchy Froglets, Keith and Carlin, twin boys born 1/30/09. Frozen for 10 years, now unleashed on the world.
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#17 of 26 Old 12-28-2009, 08:43 PM
 
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This study isn't even credible unless they are testing men and women who have experienced both. I find it hard to believe that any man who was previously intact, and later circ'd would tell you that there was no sexual side effects from the circumcision.

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#18 of 26 Old 12-28-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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Funny, today I was reading this web page from a doctor that does labiaplasty which is basically FGM but these are women who seek it out.

http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/la...cal-study.html

Their findings:

* The study found an overall satisfaction rate of 97.2% for women undergoing labiaplasty and clitoral hood reduction,
* An overall satisfaction rate of 83% in women having a vaginal tightening procedure (vaginoplasty/perineoplasty), and 91.2% for women combining both “outer” and “inner” work.
* The clinical study also cited data specifically regarding improvement in sexual satisfaction with 92.8% of women having both experienced improvement in their sexual satisfaction.
* The data also revealed that those women undergoing vaginal tightening (vaginoplasty) reported an estimated 82.2% overall improvement in their partner’s sexual satisfaction as well.
Blech, this makes me sick to read about.

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#19 of 26 Old 12-29-2009, 07:06 AM
 
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So perhaps these articles report that both circumcised and intact penises look and function the same way, but they fail to explain what is really happening. You can have an Andrew Wyeth original painting or you can have a cardboard poster of it that you bought at the National Gallery gift shop, and they do same same thing in your hallway; but they're not the same.
Brilliant! So true.

Having experienced both cut and intact partners I really don't see how anyone can say it changes nothing. They are in denial.
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#20 of 26 Old 12-30-2009, 02:59 AM
 
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Brilliant! So true.

Having experienced both cut and intact partners I really don't see how anyone can say it changes nothing. They are in denial.
I've been wondering about that. I never had the chance to "experience" a circumsized man. (I'm German, they're rather rare in that place, apart from the Muslim (mainly Turkish) population).

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#21 of 26 Old 12-30-2009, 04:05 AM
 
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I know each man is different and their techniques are all different, but not that I want to admit it, but I have been with a few of each and I would much rather be with an intact man then a cut one. I guess I did my own study and intact wins.

And the whole HIV thing is so stupid. Wear a condom, DUH.
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#22 of 26 Old 12-30-2009, 07:43 AM
 
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Of course a woman who has never been with an intact man will say sex with her circ'd partner is fine, whether it is or not. And vice versa! Luckily I married the guy with a foreskin after other experiences, and I can definitely tell you there is a difference!!
And likewise, a man who has not had both experiences is not equipped to speak to the difference. I am glad that the majority of circ'd guys are happy with their sex lives... but saying there is no difference is just ignorant!

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#23 of 26 Old 12-31-2009, 04:15 PM
 
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It is very important to remember that we have very little heterosexual sexual contact transmission of HIV in the United States. EVEN IF cutting off part of the penis helped with hetero transmission, it is not going to affect anal acquisition of the disease which is the problem here in the US. Now if we could cut the whole penis off, that might be helpful.
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#24 of 26 Old 01-04-2010, 11:44 AM
 
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Blech, this makes me sick to read about.
im a little hurt at that. ive been interested in labiaplasty for years; i'm 19 now.

i remember when i was little, and i was proud of my body. i remember thinking my vulva looked like a pear when i looked in the mirror, and i liked that. as i grew older, my inner labia got thicker and grew longer, maybe from too much masturbation? i don't know. but i know i'm not comfortable in my body because of it. to be honest, i think i look gross. i'm also pretty sure i wouldn't lose any sexual stimulation with the removal of extra labia skin, because that's not what i get most of my pleasure from.
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#25 of 26 Old 01-04-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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im a little hurt at that. ive been interested in labiaplasty for years; i'm 19 now.

i remember when i was little, and i was proud of my body. i remember thinking my vulva looked like a pear when i looked in the mirror, and i liked that. as i grew older, my inner labia got thicker and grew longer, maybe from too much masturbation? i don't know. but i know i'm not comfortable in my body because of it. to be honest, i think i look gross. i'm also pretty sure i wouldn't lose any sexual stimulation with the removal of extra labia skin, because that's not what i get most of my pleasure from.

I kinda winced at that comment, too. (episiotomy after DD1, tear with DD2 that healed open, pelvic prolapse-- yep, I've thought about different surgeries on my privates, mostly bc of vanity) Btw, growth of the labia has nothing to do with masturbation! It's all hormonal!

But I DO understand where pp's coming from...

Labial skin is nothing like foreskin. Foreskin is a double fold of skin, including a folded network of nerves, blood vessels-- like brant31 said. Labial skin IS a flap of skin, lol (oh, I know how that sounds in this forum "just a flap of skin")... it really ISN'T a "player" in the role of female stimulation.

Any cosmetic surgery should be carefully thought out and planned by the person the surgery is happening TO

And surgery on the genitals of an unconsenting person is a whole 'nother ball o wax.

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#26 of 26 Old 01-04-2010, 03:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by callherpetrol View Post
im a little hurt at that. ive been interested in labiaplasty for years; i'm 19 now.

i remember when i was little, and i was proud of my body. i remember thinking my vulva looked like a pear when i looked in the mirror, and i liked that. as i grew older, my inner labia got thicker and grew longer, maybe from too much masturbation? i don't know. but i know i'm not comfortable in my body because of it. to be honest, i think i look gross. i'm also pretty sure i wouldn't lose any sexual stimulation with the removal of extra labia skin, because that's not what i get most of my pleasure from.


i'm sorry to hear you feel the way you do about your genitals. i haven't researched it, but having birthed three children vaginally, i imagine all that extra skin is there so that when the baby comes down & out, there's something to stretch. it is your body, however, so if you want to have something done about it, you can make that decision for yourself. RIC does not give the individual the choice - it is made by others which is a human rights violation .

i personally have a problem w/ those who perform these procedures because now not only are our breasts not perfect, but our genitals aren't either. seems like the rest of the world has perfect bodies but those of us in western society don't.

i hope you stick around!

sus

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