Gentle Retraction is still forcible retraction Right ? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
MommytoB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm saying to someone that Gentle Retraction is forcible retraction but this gal is telling me it's not forcible retraction.

So is there any links that can show that gentle retraction is still forcible retraction !

She works in the medical field and says the doctor & nurses do that but she says they only do it gently not forcibly.
MommytoB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 03:23 PM
 
RunnerDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We have gently retracted my son's foreskin. We have not forcibly retracted it.

At some point you have to start retracting it, so you can clean. But you don't know just when it will be retractable. The child needs to be able to tell you if it hurts... or the child needs to be able to do it on his own... but yes, i think it can be done gently. Truly gently.

I think it can also be forced back in a slow manner by someone who doesn't know better - this would be both "gentle" and forcible. But I don't think gentle means forcible, if the foreskin is ready to be retracted.

It really depends on the child, and why it's being retracted, and how much the person doing the retraction knows about the whole business...

DS T 11/16/03 DDs K & E 3/28/08
nak DS S 4/1/11
RunnerDuck is offline  
#3 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 03:43 PM
 
green_momma2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Miami
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it depends on if the forceskin is still attached to the glans. IF it is, then really, there's no way to be gentle because by retracting you are forcibly separating the foreskin from the glans.
If you are only pulling back the part of the foreskin that is already separated, then I believe this is gentle.
To be honest, I've never retracted my son because I was horrified when my former pediatrician forcibly retracted my 8 month old baby. At the time, I had no idea that doctors did that. And all the anti circumcision sites always say to leave the foreskin alone, and since I am very anti circumcision, that's what I've always done. But now that my son ended up with a nasty infection and a painful penis I think I will have to change my approach a little. As in, gently pull back what is already retractible and clean it up.
Unfortunately, my doc seems to be very pro circumcision and he brought it up during today's visit as a way of avoiding future infections. I wasn't too happy about that, but I figure we'll be ok as long as I keep in clean.

Dalila, mom to two boys, 7 and 5

490/2013

green_momma2007 is offline  
#4 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 03:47 PM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can gently retract a retractable foreskin (like on an adult man). A non-retractable foreskin doesn't retract any more than a fingernail parts from the nail bed. If the penis isn't retractable then "gentle" retraction won't work, if it is retractable it will, but then i can't think of a reason you'd need or want to retract a child's foreskin.

Quote:
At some point you have to start retracting it, so you can clean. But you don't know just when it will be retractable. The child needs to be able to tell you if it hurts... or the child needs to be able to do it on his own... but yes, i think it can be done gently. Truly gently.
This is only true if the bolded "you" (my bolding) is the owner of the foreskin. You the parent do not need to retract to clean, it is unnecessary at best and at worst it is dangerous.

I'm in the UK where knowledge on "caring" for the foreskin (or rather faith that leaving it well alone is enough and that boys can easily and quickly be taught to clean it themselves) is widespread. I wonder though, when i read threads where people talk about cleaning under the foreskin, how many parents of little girls are carefully spreading the folds of their daughter's vulva and pulling back the clitoral hood in the bath every night to get it all "clean"...?
GoBecGo is offline  
#5 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 04:50 PM
 
RunnerDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
This is only true if the bolded "you" (my bolding) is the owner of the foreskin. You the parent do not need to retract to clean, it is unnecessary at best and at worst it is dangerous.

I'm in the UK where knowledge on "caring" for the foreskin (or rather faith that leaving it well alone is enough and that boys can easily and quickly be taught to clean it themselves) is widespread. I wonder though, when i read threads where people talk about cleaning under the foreskin, how many parents of little girls are carefully spreading the folds of their daughter's vulva and pulling back the clitoral hood in the bath every night to get it all "clean"...?
OK - so there's another post now on infection in a 4 yo penis. My son had this when he was 3. I think that this began to happen around the time we really did need to start pulling back the skin and cleaning things better. Prior to that we took the "it will stay clean enough" approach to things. But once things begin to separate in there, I think you do need to pay a little more attention to cleaning.

I think there is a point where you have to start checking - not forcing, but checking - to see if the foreskin can be retracted for cleaning. It doesn't have to be a huge traumatic deal. Note that I did say in my previous post that the child needs to be able to express whether or not it is hurting. I don't think it's entirely fair to say the parent should not be doing the cleaning at all - the parent is doing most of the cleaning at this point, and the child is learning. You teach them to wash their hair, you teach them to clean behind their ears, you teach them to retract their foreskin. Sometimes teaching involves showing or doing. This is NOT the same as force.

No, I don't pull back my girls' clitoral hoods when I clean them - but neither do I do that to myself. I just swish around and that's always been good enough. My husband does pull back his foreskin when he washes himself. My husband is not circ'ed himself - so I like to think we do have some knowledge in our own house about caring for the foreskin.

DS T 11/16/03 DDs K & E 3/28/08
nak DS S 4/1/11
RunnerDuck is offline  
#6 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
MommytoB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wasnt there a person this board who mentioned it hurt every single time he was retracted as a child & had soap on it but this guy didn't mention it because he was afraid his mom would send him to the docotor ?

So if the foreskin can seemingly go back easy when someone else is doing that retraction how can they see it can stll hurt the person doing that because they don't know what the boy is feeling because after my son's old pedi retracted my son's foreskin he didn't think it was by force but my son said after the doctor left mommy why did that doctor hurt my penis ?

I never touched my son's foreskin, never ever cleaned under there , once brendan has gotten partal retractable I suggest to him to pull back his foreskin and give it a little shake then cover himself up .
MommytoB is offline  
#7 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 05:07 PM
 
RunnerDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoB View Post
Wasnt there a person this board who mentioned it hurt every single time he was retracted as a child & had soap on it but this guy didn't mention it because he was afraid his mom would send him to the docotor ?

So if the foreskin can seemingly go back easy when someone else is doing that retraction how can they see it can stll hurt the person doing that because they don't know what the boy is feeling because after my son's old pedi retracted my son's foreskin he didn't think it was by force but my son said after the doctor left mommy why did that doctor hurt my penis ?

I never touched my son's foreskin, never ever cleaned under there , once brendan has gotten partal retractable I suggest to him to pull back his foreskin and give it a little shake then cover himself up .
I don't know, I guess to me it's just obvious enough that you would say it that it didn't occur to me to explicitly say otherwise - but we have taught our son about the foreskin, that it is attached when you are little, that it will start to detach and you can pull it back as you get older, and as you wash, you need to stop when it hurts - or if mommy/daddy is washing you, or the doctor is examining you, you need to say it hurts.

The above situation really seems like a lack of communication, more than anything. Children are capable of grasping the whole foreskin issue from a pretty young age, IMO.

Keeping quiet when someone is hurting you goes beyond the topic of proper foreskin care. Our girls should be getting the same lesson - speak up if it hurts - and they don't have foreskins.

(And if a boy is too little to speak up that is really really when you need to leave the foreskin alone!)

DS T 11/16/03 DDs K & E 3/28/08
nak DS S 4/1/11
RunnerDuck is offline  
#8 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 05:08 PM
KGB
 
KGB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Personally I think the only person that should be retracting the foreskin of a penis is the owner of that penis. If it separates around puberty, why would a parent feel the need to be touching their boy's penis at that age? If I remember correctly, I think I first fully retracted my foreskin at around 12yo. It was a bit tight and the skin had to stretch a little. My first thought was, "Wow, I didn't know it could do that." Then I worried that I wouldn't be able to extend the foreskin back. Of course I was able to and my worry went away.

Obviously if there are serious medical concerns (if it's infected or there are other issues) retraction may be warranted, but only as a last resort in my opinion.

As far as answering the question, it's just arguing semantics. You can peel a band-aid off gently or you can rip it off forcefully. You get the same result and it still hurts either way.
KGB is offline  
#9 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 05:45 PM
 
MyBoysBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,095
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My son was 2 and a bit when he had some swelling and what looked like yellow pus coming out. We didn't go to the doc or get any creams we just let him play in a tub of clean water with baking soda in it and it cleared up in 3 days on it's own. I was a separation thing not an infection. He now balloons when he pees (which is perfectly normal) and the swelling or pus hasn't reoccured and he is over 3 now. This is all normal.

I've never washed the penis, other then the outside, of either of my boys or ever retracted them even a little. My older son is 8 and has never had any kind of swelling or any other problems or infections and he is completely retractable since he was 5. I have taught him to retract, swish in clean water and then replace. Although he really doesn't need to be doing this until puberty, I figured it would set him up for proper hygine when he is older to build the habit now. Urine is sterile and flushes out the forskin everytime they pee.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
MyBoysBlue is offline  
#10 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 06:06 PM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No one but the owner of the penis should ever retract the foreskin be it a tiny bit or not. See the thread in resources The Definition of Retraction & Why it is BAD http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=575627

The reason is micro tears by the time you realize that you have done it it is to late to stop.

If you do this and your ds says ouch that hurts the damage is already done and you cannot take it back. Even if he dosnt say ouch you still are risking introducing bacteria under the foreskin or encouraging retraction before the foreskin is ready to retract. The foreskin was made the way it is, attached for a reason to keep stuff out.

Infection is not caused by none retracting foreskin it is caused by bacteria that gets in there.

RunnerDuck I respectfully disagree with you and strongly urge you to reconsider messing with your ds's penis. It is very important that we get the proper care out there to people ie leave it alone and only swish in the bath so that we dont end up with people having issues with redness and infection.

Once the boy is old enough to understand you can tell him what to do and if he wants to he can do it. If he isnt old enough to understand the words then he isnt old enough to try and push the skin back obviously.

Please do read the 2 links that I attached in the message so you will know what is proper and what it not.

No it isnt made of glass but you can cause damage without knowing it then you have to deal with a sore penis along with possible unnatural adhesions caused by the tears. There is no need to clean under there till puberty when the hormones kick in. Before that teaching the boy to do it is just practice for later.

I have NEVER messed with my ds's penis when he is in the bath he plays with it but dosnt retract he dosnt have issues with infection or smell and never has. I know for a fact he is about 1/2 retractable because I have seen him do it but I would never dream of messing with his penis.

So for any lurkers out there leave it alone and make sure Dr's do as well and odds are you wont ever see a problem.

Something else to keep in mind many times it isnt infection but the natural retraction process happening see this thread for information on what you might see during that time to make you think it is infection http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=764732

What many think is pus is only trapped smegma that is allowed to come out during the seperation process. 99% of the issues are normal with the intact penis it is very rare to see true problems and even then it is usually yeast and easily treated with yeast meds either OTC or prescription. Just like with us girls.

Balantitis is a catch all phrase for when a Dr. dosnt understand what is going on and dosnt do a culture to check.

Sorry to go on a big loooong tangent but this issue is very much a trigger for me because I have seen and read about the damage that has been done by just gentle retraction. And it isnt worth the risk period. The reason circ became common place was because people kept saying how dirty it was and by saying that not retracting causes problems we are buying into the whole foreskin is dirty thing without going to extra lengths to keep it clean. It dosnt help the people working hard to make intact the norm again and makes many parents think well if I have to do that then might as well cut it off because I am not comfy messing with my childs genitals that much. When it just isnt true.

OP retraction is retraction some is done more forcefully than others but it all = the same thing if it isnt the owner of the penis doing it then it shouldnt be done period.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is offline  
#11 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 08:49 PM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm sorry, but an infection isn't caused by a lack of washing. There is never a "need" to wash under a pre-pubescent boy's foreskin. Some boys (like some girls) will get infections, that might be in or around their genitals. This is not due to a lack of washing. Sometimes a child will get a throat infection - they do not need to gargle with soap or antiseptic twice a day for life to prevent this.

You really REALLY can view the penis as you do the vagina. No-one is douching their infant girls, and no one needs to retract and wash their little boys.
GoBecGo is offline  
#12 of 17 Old 02-01-2010, 09:24 PM
 
serendipity22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 453
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I'm saying to someone that Gentle Retraction is forcible retraction
Yes, retraction is retraction.
I would have to think about links.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but an infection isn't caused by a lack of washing.
I agree.

There is an awful lot of infection caused by retraction, scrubbing, soap etc. caused by parents worried thanks to all the pro-circ propaganda going around.
A self fulfilling prophecy.
serendipity22 is offline  
#13 of 17 Old 02-10-2010, 08:14 PM
 
Elizabeth2008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 383
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DS is 4 and I've never done anything with his penis in terms of cleaning. I tried to retract it once (i didn't know better) when he was about 12 months because I had read you need to do that in the bath to clean it. It hurt him a lot, so I never did it again. However, his foreskin has been retractable for quite a while, at least since he was 2. Sometimes it retracts and he will pull his pants down to "fix it" and pull the foreskin back. He sometimes retracts it in the bath, but not often. What I'm wondering is, how exactly does it need to be cleaned? What should I be teaching him to do? Should I be helping with cleaning? I want him to learn how to care for his body, but I am very clueless about this. Thanks!

Attachment-Parenting mom to darling DS : (January 2006). : : : : :
Elizabeth2008 is offline  
#14 of 17 Old 02-10-2010, 09:16 PM
 
eepster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: growing in the Garden State ............
Posts: 8,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth2008 View Post
DS is 4 and I've never done anything with his penis in terms of cleaning. I tried to retract it once (i didn't know better) when he was about 12 months because I had read you need to do that in the bath to clean it. It hurt him a lot, so I never did it again. However, his foreskin has been retractable for quite a while, at least since he was 2. Sometimes it retracts and he will pull his pants down to "fix it" and pull the foreskin back. He sometimes retracts it in the bath, but not often. What I'm wondering is, how exactly does it need to be cleaned? What should I be teaching him to do? Should I be helping with cleaning? I want him to learn how to care for his body, but I am very clueless about this. Thanks!
When puberty kicks in and hormones cause him to start producing lubrication, then he should gently retract in the shower and rinse with plain water (no soap it causes the same issues for men as it does for women.)

Timmy's Mommy WARNINGyslexic typing with help of preschooler, beware of typos
eepster is offline  
#15 of 17 Old 02-10-2010, 11:46 PM
 
Fellow Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Formerly JWhispers
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth2008 View Post
DS is 4 and I've never done anything with his penis in terms of cleaning. I tried to retract it once (i didn't know better) when he was about 12 months because I had read you need to do that in the bath to clean it. It hurt him a lot, so I never did it again. However, his foreskin has been retractable for quite a while, at least since he was 2. Sometimes it retracts and he will pull his pants down to "fix it" and pull the foreskin back. He sometimes retracts it in the bath, but not often. What I'm wondering is, how exactly does it need to be cleaned? What should I be teaching him to do? Should I be helping with cleaning? I want him to learn how to care for his body, but I am very clueless about this. Thanks!
Since he sometimes does it in the bath on his own you could encourage it just to start a good habit but you don't really need to do anything at this point. If you do try and encourage it in the bath you can do it in the same way you might teach him to wash other parts. But don't worry too much if he does or doesn't.
Fellow Traveler is offline  
#16 of 17 Old 02-10-2010, 11:53 PM
 
tutucrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 800
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerDuck View Post

At some point you have to start retracting it, so you can clean. But you don't know just when it will be retractable. The child needs to be able to tell you if it hurts... or the child needs to be able to do it on his own... but yes, i think it can be done gently. Truly gently.
Not true. There is no need to clean under a foreskin even in a pubescent boy unless he is sexually active, in which case I'm sure he spends lots of time manipulating his own foreskin (teenagers tend to do this A LOT).

Quote:
It really depends on the child, and why it's being retracted, and how much the person doing the retraction knows about the whole business...
There is no valid reason to try to retract a child. Even if there is some type of issue, proper treatment does NOT involve retraction.

If anyone has any doubts about this please review information from the DOC professionals! I can't express to you how important it is that a boy be the only person to manipulate his foreskin. Trying to retract no matter how gentle is akin to breaking a baby girl's hymen. Retraction is a sexual function and has no importance in childhood.

Momma to DS (2/08) and #2 due 10/11.
 
tutucrazy is offline  
#17 of 17 Old 02-11-2010, 01:01 PM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth2008 View Post
DS is 4 and I've never done anything with his penis in terms of cleaning. I tried to retract it once (i didn't know better) when he was about 12 months because I had read you need to do that in the bath to clean it. It hurt him a lot, so I never did it again. However, his foreskin has been retractable for quite a while, at least since he was 2. Sometimes it retracts and he will pull his pants down to "fix it" and pull the foreskin back. He sometimes retracts it in the bath, but not often. What I'm wondering is, how exactly does it need to be cleaned? What should I be teaching him to do? Should I be helping with cleaning? I want him to learn how to care for his body, but I am very clueless about this. Thanks!
You can encourage him to keep pulling it back in the bath making sure that it is nice clean water when he does it because soap can be very irritating. It dosnt have to be done at all but getting him in the habit is a good thing just like teaching him to wash his bum during the bath is a good habit.

You shouldnt ever do it because you can hurt him like you learned when he was 12 months.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off