What's with intact men trashing foreskins? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It seems like every time I read an article that has a discussion about circumcision, there are one or two intact men who chime in about how dirty and stinky their foreskins are, how they got it done later in life and were so upset at their parents, and as a result their sons were all RIC. What's the deal? It seems to me that it is a personal choice issue, and if they got their personal wish, then why would they think they needed to take the choice away from their sons? You'd think they of all people would appreciate the function of foreskin. I also don't get the stinky part. Nobody ever had to tell me, as a girl, how to clean myself. I just knew I had to keep things tidy. Why on earth would a grown man not just clean himself, and opt for surgery instead? If he wants the surgery, fine, but then why inflict it on his sons?

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#2 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 10:47 PM
 
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From what I have read it is probably because all their lives that is what they have heard and they now believe it to be true

If all you ever hear is bad things about something it colors your perception for life on how you view that thing.

 
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#3 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 10:53 PM
 
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I sometimes wonder if it's just pro circers trying a new tactic since the old ones aren't working to well for them anymore.

You can argue anything on a philosophical level..but how can you argue with someone's personal experience? So they 'make' it personal.

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#4 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 10:56 PM
 
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Maybe its just the same few intact men that go around the internet and hit every discussion. The intact men I know in real life are happy to have their whole penis.

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#5 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"From what I have read it is probably because all their lives that is what they have heard and they now believe it to be true"

This is very sad, but probably at least partly to blame. I know that circ care wasn't up to par either, and perhaps some of these men had problems from being retracted, etc. It's just very sad because when undecided people see things like that from a supposedly intact man, I wonder if it carries more weight.

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#6 of 27 Old 02-16-2010, 11:49 PM
 
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If it's something I read online I wouldn't give it much credence. Especially in online discussions or debates, pro-circ'ers have been known to pose as intact men with myriad problems and complaints. I put more stock in what the dozen or so intact guys I know in real life think. For the most part they either love it or shrug their shoulders and can't see what everyone thinks is so wierd about having a foreskin; it's just normal to them and works perfectly fine. The only intact guy I've met that had any misgiving was still not retractable at 21, yet he still wasn't running out to have it done.
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#7 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 12:37 AM
 
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I also wonder if it's a result of over cleaning because the perception is that the foreskin is dirty and smelly. If you over clean like using harsh soap all the time the foreskin will smell more it's like if you wash your hair often you end up with more oily hair.

Added: My DH is intact, so this is the only thing I can think of since I know that this isn't normally the case.

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#8 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 12:39 AM
 
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My husband is perfectly happy with his intact penis... and so am I. I will admit, I didn't really understand why some people were circumsised and some weren't until we got together and I decided any sons we would have weren't going to be circumsised... and it sorta caused in uproar when I was discussing it with a friend lol.

I had no idea that men who were intact we supposedly dirty and infected all the time (they way the articles always make it sound) since my husband always seemed impecablly clean. I really doubt that my husband is some overly hygenic guy compared to most intact men... so my guess it that those "intact" men are just commenting to cause an uproar.
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#9 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 02:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
... pro-circ'ers have been known to pose as intact men with myriad problems and complaints.
Yes, this.

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#10 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 05:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tammylsmith View Post
It seems like every time I read an article that has a discussion about circumcision, there are one or two intact men who chime in about how dirty and stinky their foreskins are, how they got it done later in life and were so upset at their parents, and as a result their sons were all RIC. What's the deal?
I hate to say it, but very often the deal is that these are not genuine posts at all. The authors are called "trolls". They troll the internet looking for places that they can make up stories and gain a sympathetic response for their point of view. In fact, many posters appearing to be unhappy intact men are in fact women and circumcised men projecting how awful it must be (in their minds) to be intact. In another variant, they post stories of how miserable their lives were until they got circumcised, and then they won the lottery, their kids got into Harvard and Heidi Klum sends them fan mail.

It is amusing to read the evolution of their tactics. After it was clear that their doom-and-gloom stories were over the top, they switched to bombarding the net with accounts of how they really, really didn't want to get circumcised but it was their last resort and now it never rains or snows where they live and sex is incredible. Whatever. It's like playing whac-a-mole... you expose them somewhere, and a week later they pop up with a new persona.

The relevant thing is that the medical literature reveals no such enormous population of people unhappy with their normal anatomy.
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#11 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 07:05 AM
 
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I'm an intact man and i hate my foreskin and wish my parents had done the right thing and had it chopped off......

It's that easy - actually i'm a UK woman who is incredibly anti-circ (and lucky enough to live somewhere where it is not a normal thing to do without medical cause), but the internet cannot tell. I have met lots of men with their whole penis, and i assume when i read about how dirty and stinky and disgusting a foreskin was and how it's owner hasn't stopped smiling since he had it chopped off it is simply a pro-circ troll trying to convince people it's a good thing to do.

The circ debate baffles me. In what other circumstance would it be ok for one of us to approach a stranger and advise them on mutilating their children's genitalia without facing SERIOUS questions from the police?
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#12 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 09:00 AM
 
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The circ debate baffles me. In what other circumstance would it be ok for one of us to approach a stranger and advise them on mutilating their children's genitalia without facing SERIOUS questions from the police?
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#13 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I never thought of the possibility that they could be trolls. It just seems so stupid to take the time to lie like that? But then, why is the pro-circ side still so adamant without anything to back up their claims. As a side note, my midwife was against circing her son, but then did so at the request of her husband after an intact family friend advised them that it would be better that way and it swayed her decision, so I guess there must be a few out there who are less than happy (I think he felt picked on in school? it seemed like that was the reason.... my midwife is in her early 40's, so I guess it is just a different times type of situation, but I don't see why she, as a medical professional, would let an argument like that change her mind) I do agree that it is a completely bizarre argument for a pointless surgery in the first place, and yet people get so heated about it! it is really ridiculous when you stop and think about it with even a tiny spec of logic.

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#14 of 27 Old 02-17-2010, 05:13 PM
 
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I would just respond, "Well you are an adult and can legally and fairly safely have it removed. Your body, your choice."

The inherent fallacy in these statements is that b/c some men do not like it, or have problems with it, therefore all babies should have their foreskins forcibly removed. It's a pretty lame argument.

I wouldn't doubt some men dislike their foreskins. Heck, some women get breast implants or breast reductions. And people dye their hair, get nose jobs...even labiaplasty is becoming popular!

The point is: these are adults choosing what they want to do with their bodies. They have access to pain relief, they can care for their bodies and communicate issue to the HCP, they are consenting.

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#15 of 27 Old 02-18-2010, 05:50 AM
 
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The only man I've ever had advise me to get my boys cut was my intact FIL. Of course, his sons are cut, because that was the medical advice at the time. I take it with a HUGE grain of salt though. He is very much a product of his "never question authority" upbringing, and didn't get circ' himself, even though he seems to think it's better for everyone else.
Even if these guys are legitimate, you never know what kind of issues they might have driving their behavior. Comments from a parent, shallow ex girlfriend, justifying their sons' circumcisions... you just never know.

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#16 of 27 Old 02-18-2010, 09:02 AM
 
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Mtnmom, I find the attitude expressed by people like your FIL to be the height of hypocrisy. If circumcision is such a wonderful procedure for everyone else, why do they not jump on the bandwagon and get themselves circumcised??
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#17 of 27 Old 02-18-2010, 02:06 PM
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Men are obviously very sensitive about their penises. If an intact man has been brought up around the circ culture, he will probably question his sense of normalcy. If everyone tells him that he's not normal, uncut penises are dirty, women hate them, and a myriad of other myths and legends, he may start to believe it and:

1) Put circumcised penises on a pedestal.
2) Blame his parents for not having it done.
3) Become an advocate of circ.

I'd guess that most men that are intact, pro-circ, and choose not to have it done themselves probably believe the other myth that circs are incredibly painful as adults and recovery lasts forever. If they get past that belief or realize it's not true and get circumcised, usually their whole perception of circ changes:

1) They get relief from a feeling of conformity (they now look like their friends).
2) The penis is *incredibly* sensitive and sex is great (since the glas has been protected their whole lives).
3) They get a self-confidence boost (thinking that women will like them better).

If an adult gets circumcised and they feel this way, more power to them. However, the unfortunate thing is that with all the "benefits" they feel they receive from ADULT circ, they then become advocates of INFANT circ (which obviously will not produce the same outcomes as above and is not a personal choice).
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#18 of 27 Old 02-18-2010, 02:30 PM
 
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2) The penis is *incredibly* sensitive and sex is great (since the glas has been protected their whole lives).
I know 3 men who had to be circ'd as adults for medical reasons, and none of them found sex "great" afterwards. They all reported it to be "excruciating" for the first few months and they had to keep stopping during sex, then suffered from premature ejaculation when their glans became damaged enough that sex was bearable again, and then eventually suffered from retarded ejaculation when their glans became completely dried out and thickened.
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#19 of 27 Old 02-18-2010, 02:45 PM
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I know 3 men who had to be circ'd as adults for medical reasons, and none of them found sex "great" afterwards. They all reported it to be "excruciating" for the first few months and they had to keep stopping during sex, then suffered from premature ejaculation when their glans became damaged enough that sex was bearable again, and then eventually suffered from retarded ejaculation when their glans became completely dried out and thickened.
I can see how that would be the case due to oversensitivity of the glans and less lubrication. I don't know of anyone personally that has been circumcised as an adult. Perhaps the ones that I have heard about online are the same pro-circ trolls the people above are referring to.

Keep in mind that I'm not an advocate for adult circ, but I'm not against it either. What an adult chooses to do with their body is no concern of mine.
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#20 of 27 Old 02-19-2010, 04:12 AM
 
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Either "grass is greener" (they have some issues and get the idea that it's because they're not circumcised and blame it all on that) or fake pro-circ trolls.
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#21 of 27 Old 02-19-2010, 11:16 PM
 
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The only man I've ever had advise me to get my boys cut was my intact FIL. Of course, his sons are cut, because that was the medical advice at the time. I take it with a HUGE grain of salt though. He is very much a product of his "never question authority" upbringing, and didn't get circ' himself, even though he seems to think it's better for everyone else.
Even if these guys are legitimate, you never know what kind of issues they might have driving their behavior. Comments from a parent, shallow ex girlfriend, justifying their sons' circumcisions... you just never know.
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Mtnmom, I find the attitude expressed by people like your FIL to be the height of hypocrisy. If circumcision is such a wonderful procedure for everyone else, why do they not jump on the bandwagon and get themselves circumcised??
My situation entirely. My FIL is intact and trashed foreskins. He complained that he ripped his once or twice, it's hard to clean, yet he never got circed as an adult *this is also the man who is 70 and hasnt been to the Dr in at least 25 yrs and never had a prostate exam* of course he circed his infant son/my DH. my FIL was so shocked that we didnt want to circ our son because circed penises are "so much easier". how about hygiene, eh?

Its a very sensitive subject for my DH and I. I want him to restore his foreskin but it's not mine, ya know? He hates the thought that his parents took something from him and he is astounded at how much of his penis (foreskin) is actually gone, compared to what he is left with (scars and thick glans). he was so nervous my son would know they are different

Then there's my step dad. He is intact like my FIL , except he (and mom! lol!) are very happy with his anatomy. never been upset and he didn't blink an eye when i didn't circ my son. i dont think he expected me to.

Conversely, my dad and brother are VERY pro-circ and constantly talk about it. my father: "I will never get over the fact that you left his johnson looking like that". WTF it's a penis! even if it was rainbow colored with sparkles on it, how often is it hanging out anyway? he forced my mom to cric my brother. i think my father fits the "has to conform, doesn't question authority" type of guy we see a lot of, born in the 1930's-1940's and living in the depression you did what you were told.
Kinda like with vax...our dads will never get it.
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#22 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 12:22 AM
 
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Some of the quotes here (FIL and such) make me so thankful to be European.

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#23 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 12:33 AM
 
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Huh. Never heard that. My husband is intact and never complained and would definitely not choose to circ a son, (if we ever have one.) No stinky issues, cleaning issues or anything else. He acts as the go-to guy to all of our friends when they have questions about their intact sons, or intact future sons or w/ parents who are grappling with the decision.

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#24 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 12:44 AM
 
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My husband was intact until he was 28, then he had a circumcision of his own free will and choice, for reasons that I had to agree with, so there are 2 sides of every story. He is now 53 and does not regret it. If you would like to know the why he did it please pm me.
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#25 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 01:24 AM
 
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I also wonder if it's a result of over cleaning because the perception is that the foreskin is dirty and smelly. If you over clean like using harsh soap all the time the foreskin will smell more it's like if you wash your hair often you end up with more oily hair.
I would guess this is part of it, and also that a lot of them have real problems with their foreskins, from having them forcibly retracted (torn loose!!) regularly as infants. My brother is intact, but mom looked after it the way she was told to - in 1963 - and was really surprised when I mentioned that you're not supposed to do anything to it. I don't think my brother has ever had any problems, but I'm sure many men do. There's no way for them to know that their problems probably stem from having been torn and forcibly "cleaned" repeatedly as children...they just think it's because foreskins are inherently problemetic body parts.

Oh - and a lot of them are trolls.

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#26 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 01:45 AM
 
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My husband was intact until he was 28, then he had a circumcision of his own free will and choice, for reasons that I had to agree with, so there are 2 sides of every story. He is now 53 and does not regret it. If you would like to know the why he did it please pm me.
I don't think anyone has an issue with that because he chose to do that to himself. The issue discussed here is forced infant/child circumcision which is different. All boys deserve the dignity of the decision your husband had.
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#27 of 27 Old 02-20-2010, 10:18 AM
 
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I don't think anyone has an issue with that because he chose to do that to himself. The issue discussed here is forced infant/child circumcision which is different. All boys deserve the dignity of the decision your husband had.
agreed
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