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#31 of 48 Old 04-02-2010, 07:51 PM
 
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I can weigh in on the locker room thing. I have 2 teens one in elem and a toddler. My first 3 are circ'd ... why because I was stupid ( yes thats the reason and I can say that about myslelf)
I had a LONG conversation with my older 2 about the whole locker room thing. Neither of them could tell me which of their friends are and arnt both are student athletes and have showered. They told me its an unwritten rule you dont look at another "dudes junk" ( their EXACT words). Im in rural MD with a high circ rate. My little guy is happily intact with no issues. I have grown TONS as a mother.
Everyone on this board is a wealth of info but I wanted to weigh in the locker room thing

Jeana Christian momma to 4 sons Logan 18, Connor 15, Nathan 6, and bonus baby Jack 1
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#32 of 48 Old 04-03-2010, 12:50 AM
 
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Teasing is not about a physical trait, it is about the victim having a vulnerable personality. Your DS could be the epitome of physical perfection but if he acts vulnerable he will get teased for something. On the other hand your DS could be the goofiest kid on the planet, but if he doesn't act vulnerable he will be left alone.

This article will explain this. http://wondertime.go.com/learning/ar...our-child.html

Men who say they had a hard time in the locker room b/c of their intact status, most likely reacted to any mention of their status in a defensive vulnerable manner. Once the teaser found a sore point they would keep pushing that button. As long as you don't raise your DS with the idea that being intact is weird he won't react about it.

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#33 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 01:00 PM
 
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If you tell where you are generally maybe someone can look up the circ rate for you.

When we go to the swim team pool, the adults will get nudie to change and shower if desired but the teens do not and this trickles down to the younger kids. They do convolutions to change into swimsuits without actually removing underwear, etc. I think it has to do with cell phone cameras.

If your husband does not want your son to be teased, he will do better by putting him in 5 years of Taekwondo than chopping off his foreskin.
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#34 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
and his greatest concern is the "locker room" which i do believe is a valid concern.
Dh says that isn't a valid argument because guys in locker rooms (and restrooms) are avoiding looking at other people's penises. And if you do look, they make fun of you.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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#35 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 08:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
Well, one thing you could point out to your husband is that the circumcision rate in America is drastically falling. It is currently around 50% BUT that is due to the still-high numbers in the midwest. In some regions of the US, it is getting close to 10-20%. In other words, there is a huge chance that by the time your son is old enough to be naked in a locker room, he will be the only one missing a foreskin.

The next thing to point out is that routine circumcision does not really exist in the global culture. Canada has cut their rate close to 9%, Europe issued warnings b/c the rate for later circumcisions was 6% and they wanted it closer to 2%...meanwhile it's estimated that 80% of the world is intact.
Can you post links to the percentages? I want to email a friend who thinks mostly everyone circs but every study I found give much higher circ rates than you quoted. This is what I found, but I don't want to email it to her because she will say it proves her point, I think? I need links that will prove her wrong. Thanks so much!!!

Canada:

In 2009, the Public Health Agency of Canada reported a rate of circumcision of male babies of 31.9% for Canada overall for 2006-2007 [Canada, 2009]. Rate was 44.3% in Alberta, 43.7% in Ontario, 39.2% in Prince Edward Island, 35.6% in Saskatchewan, 31.6% in Manitoba, 30.2% in British Columbia, 18.0% in New Brunswick, 12.3% in Quebec, 9.7% in Northwest Territories, 6.8% in Nova Scotia, and lack of reliable information for Nunavut, Newfoundland and Labrador.


USA:

In the USA the rate of infant circumcision has always been high. In 2002 the number of infants circumcised before discharge from the birth hospital was 1.2 million [Kozak et al., 2002], as compared with 142,000 subsequently (being 93,000 up to age 15 and 49,000 after age 15) [Owings & Kozak, 1998]. In a 2008 report, hospital discharge data in Maryland found 75.3% of 96,457 male infants were circumcised after birth and survey data from 4,273 mothers showed a rate of 82.3% [Cheng et al., 2008]. Rate was lower amongst Hispanic and Asian infants and thus higher in non-Hispanic White and Black infants.

In earlier surveys, rates have been recorded by the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) [National, 2003]. Since only those circumcisions recorded are included in these statistics, the data are under-estimates [Schoen, 2006b], and are more useful for determining trends rather than absolute rates. The statement of an overall rate of 65.3% is thus much lower than the true rate [Schoen, 2006b].

Despite being underestimates some trends can be noted in NCHS data. For Whites there was no change over the years studied (65.8 vs 65.5%). For Blacks it rose from 57.9% to 64.4%. The rates recorded in the north-east region were steady at 70%, while rates rose in the mid-west (80%) and South (70%). For the western region rates have been falling due to the influx of Hispanics (50% of all births, so diluting out the overall rate in California to 35%). Overall the statistics show an increase in circumcision rate for Non-Hispanic Whites. In the West individual hospital data have shown, moreover, the rate for non-Hispanic Whites is in fact 75-80%. Interestingly, for the next generation of Hispanics, 29% of boys are circumcised (San Francisco General Hospital data).
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#36 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 09:21 PM
 
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Well, if you feel like discussing it is likely to change his mind, then by all means bring on the figures and studies.

But if he is unwilling to be open-minded regardless of the facts and leave this decision up to your future son, then I would as peacefully as possible let him know that this is simply not going to happen and that it's the one issue that you are in no way going to compromise on, end of discussion---it's not up for debate, it's an issue of preserving your baby's genital integrity and you hope that some day he will understand why you feel so strongly about it. Until then, stay strong, mama!

Then continue to repeat that as necessary, and don't allow your son out of your sight if you feel like your partner is likely to arrange a circumcision without your consent. I hope that it works out that he respects your decision on this.

Happy and in love with my family!
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#37 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by snowqueen View Post
In earlier surveys, rates have been recorded by the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) [National, 2003]. Since only those circumcisions recorded are included in these statistics, the data are under-estimates [Schoen, 2006b], and are more useful for determining trends rather than absolute rates. The statement of an overall rate of 65.3% is thus much lower than the true rate [Schoen, 2006b].
bold mine

I would be very suspect of this data, and I have my suspicions about where you found it. Dr Schoen has a clear agenda to promote universal male circumcision. He even writes poetry about (no, I'm not jocking.)

You can find a fair amount of information here
http://www.circumstitions.com/

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#38 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 09:26 PM
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Repeat to him over and over:

"I just can't let you do that to our son."

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#39 of 48 Old 04-04-2010, 10:14 PM
 
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Here are the most up to date statistics that I have. Unfortunatly they dont update them that often.

Statistics:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
Quote:
Year 2006 circ rates by region:
Northeast Region 63.6%
North Central Region 77.9%
Southern Region 55.3%
Western Region 33.8%
All Regions 56.1%
Statistics by state:http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

Older Statistics back to the 30's:http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html

Statistics graph by race back in 01:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2003


Map statistic: http://www.circumstitions.com/Maps.html


Canada statistics up to 01:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/


Statistics world wide: http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/majority.htm
Quote:
79 million American infant circs
9 million American child or adult circs
13 million Canada, UK, New Zealand & Australia infant circs
27 million rest of world infant circs
44 million child or adult circs other parts of world
315 million Muslim child/adolescent circumcisions
487 million = TOTAL MEN CIRCUMCISED WORLDWIDE (18%)
2 billion 160 million = TOTAL MEN INTACT WORLDWIDE (82%)

2 billion 647 million = Total Men Living Worldwide

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#40 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 12:52 AM
 
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He is still reluctant, but as I have posted before, has come so far around, considering he started from the "it's just done" point of view. He now agrees that he wouldn't want to have it done, even if I just left it up to him at this point. He also admitted, that while life would have been a whole lot easier for him if I had never presented an opposing view, he does not regret being more informed about the subject. He is still a little panicky about the whole thing, since our son is due in 2 weeks now, but I think (and he agreed with this) that it is all pretty much because there is this deep nagging feeling that either our son's penis is "messed up" or dh's is. I think it all boils down to insecurity. He thought this operation was done to make him somehow "better" in that department, but to find out it really has no point is so hard. We are beyond presenting information at this point. He knows it is all about emotion now, and what he needs to come to terms with. He miserably said "I just wish if they couldn't come up with a good medical reason to do it, that it would not be legal."

I was just like "hmmm, good point honey" (meanwhile, inside ) I really love dh and it's times like this that he reminds me why I married him.

I wish the rates were dropping faster in this country. I wish people would just think about this more before sacrificing their sons... but at least I know that in our tiny little corner of America, things will be peaceful and gentle, as nature intended.

Mom to Delia  (5/25/07) and Alex  (4/10/10) and 2 spoiled kitties
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#41 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 12:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tammylsmith View Post
He is still reluctant, but as I have posted before, has come so far around, considering he started from the "it's just done" point of view. He now agrees that he wouldn't want to have it done, even if I just left it up to him at this point. He also admitted, that while life would have been a whole lot easier for him if I had never presented an opposing view, he does not regret being more informed about the subject. He is still a little panicky about the whole thing, since our son is due in 2 weeks now, but I think (and he agreed with this) that it is all pretty much because there is this deep nagging feeling that either our son's penis is "messed up" or dh's is. I think it all boils down to insecurity. He thought this operation was done to make him somehow "better" in that department, but to find out it really has no point is so hard. We are beyond presenting information at this point. He knows it is all about emotion now, and what he needs to come to terms with. He miserably said "I just wish if they couldn't come up with a good medical reason to do it, that it would not be legal."

I was just like "hmmm, good point honey" (meanwhile, inside ) I really love dh and it's times like this that he reminds me why I married him.

I wish the rates were dropping faster in this country. I wish people would just think about this more before sacrificing their sons... but at least I know that in our tiny little corner of America, things will be peaceful and gentle, as nature intended.
This is such wonderful news!

I know it's bittersweet, though... on the one hand, your baby will be intact (yay!), but on the other hand? Your husband is going through some tough thought processes. Keep us updated, and enjoy the last bit of your pregnancy.

Have you seen the updated user agreement yet?
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#42 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 01:59 AM
 
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Well it's a good update for your son! I was origionally going to post that if you two can't come to a descision-- why not let your son cast the tie breaking vote when he's old enough to decide for himself?

Now it looks like your DH wishes for the same choice himself.

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#43 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 09:26 AM
 
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Wonderful news!! Congratulations and peaceful birthing thoughts coming your way. for your dh for coming to the right decision even though it's been so difficult for him.

 
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#44 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 11:05 AM
 
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Oops! I just realized I co-opted someone else's thread by accident. I just wanted to make sure I point out that I am not the OP here on this thread. I meant to start a new discussion but must have just hit reply instead. Sorry about any confusion caused, I was just so happy to share our progress with a topic very similar to this OP's.

Mom to Delia  (5/25/07) and Alex  (4/10/10) and 2 spoiled kitties
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#45 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tammylsmith View Post
I think (and he agreed with this) that it is all pretty much because there is this deep nagging feeling that either our son's penis is "messed up" or dh's is. I think it all boils down to insecurity. He thought this operation was done to make him somehow "better" in that department, but to find out it really has no point is so hard. We are beyond presenting information at this point. He knows it is all about emotion now, and what he needs to come to terms with. He miserably said "I just wish if they couldn't come up with a good medical reason to do it, that it would not be legal."
is a beautiful, personal, poignant summation of why circumcision is such a volatile and visceral discussion point.

Instinctively, reasonable people know that if infant circumcision is objectively healthier and significantly cost-effective (from a public health POV), then it should be universal. But if it is not, then it is merely disfiguring and painful and should be outlawed. There really is no middle ground. It makes no sense that routine circ is tremendously effective for one family and only destructive for another family.

It is really up to the medical profession to say, "There is no valid reason for doing this, and it should be actively discouraged". In many countries, they do. But somehow the medical associations in the world's largest and most influential medical market have instead interpreted their role as to find all the possible justifications and rationalizations for a bad habit and then discuss these against the alternative. It drags us right back to the "both ways are equally valid" point which, as your husband instinctively understands, cannot be right. Maybe if both options were free and painless; but they're not.

Viewed in the aggregate, this country spends upwards of $750 million a year to sever infant foreskins (and fix the tens of thousands of messes it creates). For no net medical benefit vs Western Europe, our demographic peers. This cultural blindness went unchecked for decades, but thankfully the internet is finally leveling the field.

It seems to me that those parents who finally "come around" are gradually seeing the big picture. It eases the pain and stubbornness if we earnestly say, "Look, we went down the wrong path for a couple of generations because we were in the dark. It looked right then, but we neither knew that our guides (the medical profession) were really not guiding us or that our peers (in distant countries) had found a more satisfactory path. The explosion of data and knowledge in the last 2 decades has shed new light on everything medical and allowed better sharing of information. Let's do better now, not regret and repeat." Or something to that effect.

One bit I still don't completely understand is how Canadian and Australian parents so readily dropped their own solid embrace of RIC. It came down a lot faster than it went up. I guess some of it was reform of how healthcare was delivered and some was their medical associations turning against the practice, yet to hear American parents today, neither of those would sway them from this beloved tradition. Maybe the reality is different when it truly does hit your wallet.
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#46 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 11:51 AM
 
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[QUOTE=snowqueen;15261934]Can you post links to the percentages?
Canada:

The most recent stats for Canada that I can find are these ones for 2005, that show an overall rate of less than 10%. My doctor tells me that from her observation the number of baby boys being circumcised has dropped dramaticaly in the last 5 years.

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/s...hi-2005-e.html
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#47 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 12:46 PM
 
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The 10 percent is just in hospital circs. The majority are done after the Mom and baby are out of the hospital in pediatrician's offices and such.

Quote:
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html
"The Maternity Experiences Survey, conducted in 2006 by the Public Health Agency of Canada, found an average national newborn circumcision rate of 31.9%. "
I think the biggest reason the rates have dropped is the fact that it is completely out of pocket. It isn't covered by our health care or private insurance. I've also heard that it's becoming harder to find a doctor willing to actually perform a circumcision. I've heard stories of people living in the provinces with really low circ rates (rates vary greatly by province), having to travel out of province.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
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#48 of 48 Old 04-05-2010, 10:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by evjolin View Post
locker room
OK. Agree with him. Tell him conformity is very important and you insist that son look like most normal males. Then walk over to the computer and show him that 85% of the world's families do not circumcise.

-Ron
HIS body, HIS decision.
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