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#1 of 37 Old 05-29-2010, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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hey, i have a friend, pg with her second (unknown sex). dh wants to cut, mom doesn't. dad is worried 'the locker room'. so i told her i would gather some stories about how much of a non issue it is. i know i've read some accounts of kids talking about the locker room.

thanks!

~helen~ mama to 5 yo twins jonas and micah and my 2 yo baby boy eli
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#2 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 09:32 AM
 
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I think the locker room thing is a myth. I think there are people who have stories... and there are people who were teased about lots of things... like their name, their weight, their height, their freckles, their acne, their chest hair.... probably everyone has a story about something mean someone said or something "funny" that their friends used to pick on them about that hurt their feelings deep inside- but only when it comes to circumcision is this used as an excuse to cut off a part of a child's body.

Tell your girlfriend to think like an adult and not like a schoolchild. The problem is not children bullying children... the problem is ADULTS bullying adults.... and adults use this fake idea of anti-bully protection as a coercive scare tactic to bully other adults into protecting their own investment in circumcision as the status quo. They need all the boys to be circumcised to validate their decision and to hopefully leave their circumcision decision unquestioned. They are afraid that the mere existence of an intact child (he doesn't need to be a bully, it's even "worse" if he's a friend or a nice and popular guy) will possibly make all the lies about circumcision fall flat. They don't want their decision challenged by the flesh and blood truth. They don't want their circumcised son to ever think critically about it- that's why the "when he can't remember it" argument is so popular... if circumcision was such a great thing and such a reasonable thing... why would it be so bad to remember it? It's not a question of memory... it's a matter of critical questioning.

I'll finish with a locker room story... My husband works a very tough job with a locker room and showers 2x a day. Almost every employee is male and they have radios to keep the crew in contact. There is a ton of banter and jabs all day on the radio- that radio banter is one of my husband's favorite parts of his job. Anyway- soon after he was hired, he got a nickname, (one that any guy would be proud of- and it's very obscure- it's an inside joke)... he was very embarrassed when it got pinned on him- when he came home and told me what it was- even I had to laugh- because as far as nicknames go- it's a really good one. Anyway- he and a bunch of the guys on the crew are expectant dads- and one day he was talking to one of the other guys- (who he happens to know is intact) and he mentioned that we WILL NOT circumcise this baby... the guy seemed to have a >blink blink WOW!< kind of moment... because I guess he just assumed that my DH would be one of those dads who would be insisting on a baby matching etc... the fact that my husband said that- I think made this guy feel so good about himself, having grown in in the midwest he probably had encountered so much negative stuff against the natural male body- to have my DH defend his future baby like that was a SUPER lift to this other guy's feelings about his own body. So there is a story about a locker-room type of incident that worked out really well for everyone.
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#3 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 09:34 AM
 
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I'm a 25-year-old intact man and never received any bad comments about being intact in the locker room (in fact given how many of them now operate it's doubtful that anyone ever saw my penis when I was changing, period).

Kelly, a man who is proud to be intact!
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#4 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 12:31 PM
 
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I asked my brother this who is 19. He was heavy into football so was in locker rooms a lot. He said, "A guy wouldn't be caught dead looking at another guys junk." He never had an issue.
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#5 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 12:52 PM
 
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When we were still deciding about DS I wanted to talk to some men that were intact. I only know of 2 and they're my cousins-in-law. There are 5 brothers in that family and the older two were circed and the younger three are intact (actually it could be 3 circed, 2 intact, I forget). Anyway I talked with the younger two who are 19 and 16. The 19 year old is in the National Guard and the younger goes to public high school. I asked if they ever were teased and they said "no" and I asked if they ever wished they were circed and they said "h*** no. I like myself just the way I am". It was huge for me to hear that because I had believed what other adults had said (and you're right, it's more of an adults bullying adults into RIC than boys teasing other boys).
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#6 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 01:07 PM
 
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@Plainandtall:

my bf was in boy scouts from cubbies to eagle. like 12 years total of scouts. this included sports, camping, all kinds of incidents when boys would wind up seeing each other one way or another. he said he knew of a few intact boys but no one ever EVER talked about it. of my 3 brothers, all grown up in group homes/orphanages, all athletes, with 2 in the military, and 1 an ex-rough neck, they also never EVER talked about each other's junk. and this was in a time when the average here was much more circumcised-heavy. in michigan, where i think the op is from, there is still a high rate, but i mean, in general, its getting better. so if you'r in a room naked with 10 guys, and 4 are intact and 5 are not, i am pretty sure no one would dare make a comment. and even if, let's say, someone did come to a point in their life when they were teased about such a thing, offer them surgery then. i mean, in all fairness, it should be up to them to begin with.

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#7 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 02:05 PM
 
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Back when I was in HS, one day 2 guys I was friends with met me at my locker. One guy tells me about how earlier after gym the other guys under pants got pulled off as a joke (by some other guy.) Then hoping I would be freaked out by it he tells me that the other guy isn't circ'd. Instead of being freaked out by it, I laugh at him and inform him that no one in my family is circ'd and I think circ'd ones look like upside down alienheads.

OK, I know I shouldn't have called circ'd ones upside down alien heads (even if it is a pretty accurate description,) but even in the near universal circ happy 1980s, there were plenty of us who thought the circ'd one were the non-standard version. These days, with the circ rate falling all the time, the intact penis is going to become more and more the standard model of what people in the US think of as normal.

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#8 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 02:14 PM
 
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IMO, total myth. No school I ever went to required showers and no one EVER took them together in sports (that I know of) or in PE. Neither do the school my little bro goes to a few states away. I don't remember anyone ever mentioning circ vs. uncirc, either. And most of my friends were guys.

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#9 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 02:39 PM
 
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And here's the deal: even if it isn't a complete myth and some boys to get made fun of, it doesn;t matter as an argument.

Why? Because you cannot protect your child from teasing. All children get teased and there's not a thing you can do to stop it. Whether it's about an intact penis, some other body part, a family member, a name, etc. We all get teased some way.

Rather than try and shelter a child from the inevitable, I say teach your child to love himself and be able to brush off bullies emotionally. That is the best approach.

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#10 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 07:53 PM
 
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My husband is intact and I asked him once, while discussing circumcision, "did you ever get teased for it?" He looked a bit baffled and was like, "uh, no, why would I? Does that even happen?" Obviously it was a non-issue for him.

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Originally Posted by homeschoolingmama View Post
He said, "A guy wouldn't be caught dead looking at another guys junk." He never had an issue.
I've heard this, too.
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#11 of 37 Old 05-30-2010, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lillitu View Post
And here's the deal: even if it isn't a complete myth and some boys to get made fun of, it doesn;t matter as an argument.

Why? Because you cannot protect your child from teasing. All children get teased and there's not a thing you can do to stop it. Whether it's about an intact penis, some other body part, a family member, a name, etc. We all get teased some way.

Rather than try and shelter a child from the inevitable, I say teach your child to love himself and be able to brush off bullies emotionally. That is the best approach.
I completely agree. My daughter has red hair and gets made fun of sometimes. I wouldn't dye her hair. I wouldn't alter them at all. Whoever makes fun of someone-that's the bully's issues, not my kids. They need to grow up and be nicer. You can't protect your kids from all teasing-kids always find something.

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#12 of 37 Old 05-31-2010, 08:51 PM
 
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I have 3 brothers, the youngest is 15 (next month) and the oldest is 26. They have never had a issue in the locker room. 2 of them were jocks and the oldest wasn't into sports (you still have to change for p.e. but people not in sports in our school get picked on really bad). That was one thing my DH wanted to know when we were making the choice not to circ our DS.

Like my brothers said, it would be worse for them to say something because then they are admitting they looked at another guys penis. I thought that was a really good point.

They are all happy they were left intact as well, which made me very happy with my choice.

~Katie~ married to J, mom to DD- A 13 yrs ,DS- L 7yrs , and my little nursling DD2- R 5yrs.

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#13 of 37 Old 05-31-2010, 09:00 PM
 
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Wouldn't a person have to look closely to notice the difference between intact and cut when flaccid? I mean, it's all shriveled up anyway.
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#14 of 37 Old 05-31-2010, 09:10 PM
 
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My (circumcised) DH was involved in Scouts, sports, and summer camps growing up. He was also in the military, and private showers weren't an option where he was stationed. It was basically one big room for 50+ men.

When we weren't in agreement on circ'ing, he brought up the locker room argument and how many communal showers he'd taken over the years. I asked him if he'd seen boys and men who were intact, and he said yes. So I asked him what had happened to those boys and men in the showers (thinking to myself, surely it must have been terrible if we would have to circ to prevent it). Without thinking, he rolled his eyes and said, "You don't comment on another guy's unit! That's just asking for trouble."

I looked at him for a second and asked, "So why are we even having this conversation?" With an extremely sheepish look on his face, he said, "Um . . . I don't know."

He never brought up the locker room again, and by the time our son was born, he said no as adamantly as I did when we were asked if we wanted him circumcised. The locker room is the least of our worries, but even if it were still an issue, we've met or heard of a surprising number of intact boys his age lately. (Most of them, incidentally, are the sons of physicians.)
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#15 of 37 Old 05-31-2010, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavamamakava View Post
Wouldn't a person have to look closely to notice the difference between intact and cut when flaccid? I mean, it's all shriveled up anyway.
No IME it's pretty obvious, the whole profile is different. It's harder to tell when it's erect than when it's flaccid.

I can't ask DP about locker room teasing, as he's European. But I must say that I think I would rather have a kid who gets made fun of for being intact than a son who gets made fun of for being circ'd. Circumcision is not common here anymore (West Coast Canada). I wouldn't want my kid coming home and saying the other boys told him his parents had part of his penis cut off for no reason. That seems a lot tougher to justify.

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#16 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 10:37 AM
 
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I just can't believe people can get the "locker room argument" out of their mouths without dying of embarrassment. It's basically saying "I'd like to amputate part of my son's penis so that other people, particularly other young men, will be pleased to see it."

Melissa, wife to Brian, mommy to my home born, breastfeeding, sling-riding, sleep sharing, cloth diapered, intact kiddos Adam 11/09 and Leah 8/12.

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#17 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 12:01 PM
 
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I asked dh about the 'locker room' idea when I was pg with our first.

His reply was: "If someone is looking at my penis in the locker room they have far more problems than I do."

When his father, upon learning that our first born was not circ'd, said, "someday he will ask you why you look different from him;" my dh, without skipping a beat said, "I'll tell him, mine is bigger and hairier but all that matters is that it works well."

from the mama of 2 uncirc'd boys....

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#18 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 12:08 PM
 
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My husband was an intact football player in the midwest in the 90s.

In all of his locker room years, there was only ONE comment, ONCE. My husband responded with "Uh, why are you looking at my d!ck?" Never happened again.

In my opinion, boys are too afraid of being called gay (unfortunately) to comment on another guy's equipment.
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#19 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 01:21 PM
 
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I researched the rates of circumcision about 8 months ago after learning my nephew had just had his done in case I needed stats to throw at them (my boys are both intact). According to Stats Canada the current rate is roughly 60% intact vs 40% cut in Canada. I would assume it is similar in the USA. As far as I'm concerned it is more common these days to NOT circumcise than it is to do so there shouldn't be any locker room issues!
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#20 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 05:34 PM
 
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I'm 42 years old, I am circumcised but here's the entirety of penis references I heard in all my time in school locker rooms boils down to one conversation, everyone dressed already, in which Obnoxious Jock was being mean to Helpless Scrawny Kid. Jock: So, do you do it with your left or right hand, I mean is it like this (makes exhagerated stroking motion with left hand) or like this (same motion with right hand). Scrawny kid: shut up.

Yep, that's it for penis talk in the locker room.

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#21 of 37 Old 06-01-2010, 07:26 PM
 
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My DH, who played football in HS and was born in 1980 (so lots of circ'd boys, I'm sure) doesn't recall class/team-mates comparing penises in the locker room. He's intact, BTW, and was never teased about it.

But yeah, by the time babies today are old enough to shower at school (I never, ever did this myself - but maybe it's a male thing), I imagine the circ vs. intact ratio will be pretty small.

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#22 of 37 Old 06-02-2010, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post
My husband was an intact football player in the midwest in the 90s.

In all of his locker room years, there was only ONE comment, ONCE. My husband responded with "Uh, why are you looking at my d!ck?" Never happened again.

In my opinion, boys are too afraid of being called gay (unfortunately) to comment on another guy's equipment.
Yeah, I think the "locker room teasing" is really a red herring. I am an intact male and many years ago when I was in high school we had communal showers after sports practice. The circumcision rate was about 1/3 intact, 2/3 circ'd. Yeah, guys did "look," sneak-a-peek, just for comparison purposes, more for "size" than circ status. You CERTAINLY did not want to be caught staring, or even worse, making a teasing remark, or you would get a strong comment like the one above, as well as an accusation of being a "homo," or "queer." ("Gay" did not have the same meaning then as it does now...)
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#23 of 37 Old 06-02-2010, 05:35 PM
 
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I asked DH, and he said it was an absolute non-issue. No one looked, and if they did, they certainly wouldn't admit that they were looking by making a snide remark!

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#24 of 37 Old 06-03-2010, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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wow, thanks everyone! i'll be sending her the link to this thread, and i'm sure it will help put things in perspective. thanks for sharing!

~helen~ mama to 5 yo twins jonas and micah and my 2 yo baby boy eli
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#25 of 37 Old 06-03-2010, 07:28 PM
 
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My BFF's son (now 19) was in band and sports all through HS. He had all kinds of comebacks ready if anyone ever commented on his intactness. (I think he was actually looking forward to using them) My personal favorite was "Wait - I'm Not missing the best part of my junk and you're laughing at me?"

He NEVER got to use it - or any other comeback, not once, not ever. Now he's in the navy, on a submarine (talk about close quarters) and still, never has had a chance to use them....I guess either no one look, no one cares or no one wants to risk violating 'don't ask, don't tell.

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#26 of 37 Old 06-05-2010, 05:42 PM
 
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I have heard of people being teased (I knew someone who was the "bully" in high school, and he admitted to bugging one kid who was uncircumcised) however, my husband said he has never been teased for being uncut.
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#27 of 37 Old 06-05-2010, 06:12 PM
 
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My brother and I were discussing this. He said there was ONE guy in our entire high school who was intact, and everyone knew it. He told me who this guy was; it was someone on one of my brother's sports teams who I knew. My brother said that everyone tormented him whenever they got changed for sports and said how gross and weird it was.

The kid seemed to be fine; I don't know if the teasing bothered him, but my brother said that they DID do it and it WAS relentless all through high school. I'd imagine that if he had a response like "Why are you looking at my penis?" my brother would have come right back with something like "Well, it's just SO awful, how can I NOT look?" He was (is) that kind of a guy.

Kids get teased for all sorts of things. Including being intact if that is the minority. I don't think it helps anything to say it never happens; it's just a matter of whether that information should have an effect on anyone's decision.
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#28 of 37 Old 06-05-2010, 06:14 PM
 
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My bf in high school was intact. He didn't even know he was intact until I told him . He was teased because he was skinny, because he had acne, because he had a birthmark on his thigh, but never because of his foreskin.

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#29 of 37 Old 06-05-2010, 06:29 PM
 
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My brother is in university and he mentioned there was some foreskin related teasing, but it was the circumcised guys who were being mocked.
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#30 of 37 Old 06-05-2010, 10:34 PM
 
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There was only boy in my year at school who had escaped the knife, because he was from the UK.

He was strong and athletic and nobody teased him about anything.

I think the locker room thing really is a red herring as mentioned before. I think it was invented to reinforce conformity. Kids can be teased over anything.

Since when is surgery performed because of fear of school bullies?
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