His, Mine & now...OURS - Circumcision Dilemna - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 05:22 AM
 
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You're in Canada so he has an uphill battle if he wants it done, and you would have to consent. Just say no. It is not unreasonable to say that something is not negotiable when it is clearly wrong. Would you worry about taking a "not negotiable" position if you were talking about circumcising a girl?

I told my DH (who happens to be Jewish) that if he wanted to circumcize are son, first he had to read all the literature, for and against, and watch a video of a newborn being circumcized. If he was still in favour, it had to be done when our DS was at least one year old, under general anesthesia and by a urologist. Those were my conditions.

He dropped the issue and our DS is intact. At this point, I would just say no if DH raised the issue again. Our DS can decide for himself when he is an adult.

Roman Goddess, mom to J (August 2004) and J (April 2009).    h20homebirth.gif signcirc1.gif
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#32 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 03:27 PM
 
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The argument I always here about that is ...what man wants to go through the pain of that. My dh is pretty worked up about getting "snipped" after the birth hahaha. So really I think what they hear when we say its a choice they can have done later is...it will never happen, what grown man would want to go through that, and so, therefore better to do now.
So basically then the argument is that you have to remove his foreskin now b/c he would never choose it later? So the whole point is to deny the future man the choice? Turn that back on him. If he would not choose it as an adult, then who are we to force it on him when he cannot resist?

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#33 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 03:37 PM
 
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The argument I always here about that is ...what man wants to go through the pain of that. My dh is pretty worked up about getting "snipped" after the birth hahaha. So really I think what they hear when we say its a choice they can have done later is...it will never happen, what grown man would want to go through that, and so, therefore better to do now.

I have put an end to the derogatory penis comments about my son. We had quite a talk about it. Why are men defined by their penis's???? Weird.
Umm...if a MAN doesn't want to go through it, then a BABY shouldn't be forced to! The BABY won't get proper pain care, the BABY doesn't get to say, mommy don't do that to my penis!! If a MAN doesn't want it done, then a BABY shouldn't have to have it done either.
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#34 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 10:56 PM
 
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It comes down to this...he wants to have a surgery preformed on your newborn helpless infant. Leaving him the way he came is the default. You do not have to argue the position of doing nothing - he has to prove that it's necessary to risk surgery on your son that kills about 100 babies every year so they can look alike.

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#35 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 11:25 PM
 
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I think you've got some really great advice about what to do for the baby you're pregnant with. I never know how to approach this issue because it's kind of a die on a hill thing for me and my husband knew this before we got pregnant (and agrees with me even though he is cut).

I do think that no matter what you do for the upcoming baby (and I hope you put your foot down) you also have some work to do in regards to standing up for your son's body and not allowing your husband to make disparaging remarks about your young son's penis. I'm really disturbed that he's calling it names.

Healthcare is a human right!
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#36 of 47 Old 06-13-2010, 12:45 AM
 
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This is the hard part. I totally believe this...but don't know HOW to talk to him about something like this without shouting YOU'RE WRONG hahaha. I guess that has to be my INSIDE voice and I have to try and figure out what appropriate outside voice would be
I know exactly what you mean. It's hard to not take it to an intense level when it's something that is so clearly black and white to you. Or to laugh at arguments that are clearly not very well thought-out. One suggestion is writing things down. You could write letters to him, and have him respond in a letter too. I always am more careful with my word choices when I have to write it down. You'd be able to put more thought and time into telling him how you feel and responding empathetically to his issues and reservations. Plus I think it adds a level of formality that a serious issue like this deserves. Just a thought...
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#37 of 47 Old 06-13-2010, 04:38 AM
 
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The person with the penis decides. That is, the person actually attached to the penis in question. (Possession of A penis is not the same as possession of THE penis.)

Let your son decide when he's an adult.

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#38 of 47 Old 06-13-2010, 11:52 AM
 
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It comes down to this...he wants to have a surgery preformed on your newborn helpless infant. Leaving him the way he came is the default. You do not have to argue the position of doing nothing - he has to prove that it's necessary to risk surgery on your son that kills about 100 babies every year so they can look alike.
I see what you're saying, but I think turning this in to a marital battle is probably not the best idea in the long run for your family. If you say up front "we're not doing it, period. It's the most inhumane, ridiculous idea ever" you husband might end up resenting you and it could be a source of real anger and resentment (of course we all realize that it shouldn't be done and it is inhumane). On the other hand, if you treat his feelings and arguments in a gentle way, hopefully you can get him on your page with no feelings of bitterness and anger. If it comes down to it and he still won't see things your way, then of course is the time to stand your ground and fight the good fight and protect your son. You have time to go about this gently for now! My husband finally let go of it when my son was about a month old. It took months and months of looking at the issue for my husband to fully "get it".
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#39 of 47 Old 06-14-2010, 12:46 AM
 
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I don't have an answer for changing your husband's mind. But my 2 sons are 10 years apart. DH is circed, First son was circed, second son wasn't. Having a son who is "different" from Dad and his brother has not been an issue at all. Neither son cares. Bodies are all different, circed or not. I don't know if that is one of your husband's concerns, but for us it hasn't mattered at all. Good luck to you.

Kelly - Labor & Delivery RN, IBCLC, Wife of 22 years, Mom to 4
Proud Surrogate Mommy

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#40 of 47 Old 06-14-2010, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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thank you for all the replies...it seems it kept saying there were NEW replies and yet none of them were showing up, so I'm just catching up now. i will re-read and respond to some then. it is interesting to hear other people's ideas.

Married Busy Mom to DSS 01/05, DD 11/05, DSD 11/06, DD 02/07, DS 03/08 and baby on the way 11/10
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#41 of 47 Old 06-14-2010, 11:22 PM
 
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I'm in Alberta too - I would definitely educate him about how low the circ rate in Canada is. I would also remind him that not many doctors even do it anymore, it's not covered by insurance.
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#42 of 47 Old 06-15-2010, 01:47 PM
 
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Fingers crossed for ya that it's a girl.

If it's a boy, just say no and don't sign the papers. DH will get over it. Or, have a home birth, then you have no risk of DH helping sneak him off to get it done when you are sleeping or something. DS1's bio dad threatened to do that.

Mindie, wife to Mark, not-so-crunchy mom to Dylan (4/04); Devon (6/06); Dorothy (9/07); Derek (12/19/09); Daniel (12/18/10); Newbie D (2/22/12)

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#43 of 47 Old 06-15-2010, 05:05 PM
 
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Hello!

My first reaction is a pretty simple one.... there is no Yours, or His, or Ours. There's only "Your Son's". My reasons for being against infant circumcision are numerous, but the biggest one is simply.... it's HIS penis. He should have the right to decide if he wants to be circumcised or not, and at 2 days old, he can't make that choice.

It's not about being pro or anti circumcision.... it's being pro choice in the best sense of the word. Your son, if what you are carrying is a boy, should have the right to decide what his genitals look like, unless there is a compelling and urgent medical need for surgery. Not you, not your husband.

Additionally, I recommend that you get in touch with the folks at Saving Penises. They'll send you a boatload of printed information and 3 DVDs (including a very funny Penn & Teller episode of Bullsh!t) that have helped a lot of women educate their circumcised husbands about the realities of infant circumcision.

http://www.savingpenises.org/

This site also has some wonderful information:
www.drmomma.org

Good luck!
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#44 of 47 Old 06-16-2010, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm in Alberta too - I would definitely educate him about how low the circ rate in Canada is. I would also remind him that not many doctors even do it anymore, it's not covered by insurance.
we've talked about this briefly. his response - HIS doctor does circ's. GRRR. Mine as far as I know is against it. I'm not sure if he will actually do one or not but in my previous pregnancies (even though we never really talked about it because it wasn't an issue) he's mentioned that he thinks that it is completely unnecessary. maybe i need to bring dh to one of my appointments and talk to my doc about it. i think there was a previous post of someone mentioning that.

i'll bring dh to the appt with me after the ultrasound when we find out the sex and we can talk about it then if we need to.

Married Busy Mom to DSS 01/05, DD 11/05, DSD 11/06, DD 02/07, DS 03/08 and baby on the way 11/10
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#45 of 47 Old 06-16-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Fingers crossed for ya that it's a girl.

If it's a boy, just say no and don't sign the papers. DH will get over it. Or, have a home birth, then you have no risk of DH helping sneak him off to get it done when you are sleeping or something. DS1's bio dad threatened to do that.
lol...well the good thing is, he can't sneak out and do it here. you have to find a doc that does it and have it done afterwards.

Married Busy Mom to DSS 01/05, DD 11/05, DSD 11/06, DD 02/07, DS 03/08 and baby on the way 11/10
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#46 of 47 Old 06-16-2010, 09:15 PM
 
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lol...well the good thing is, he can't sneak out and do it here. you have to find a doc that does it and have it done afterwards.
Ohhh, then the solution is PROCRASTINATION!

"Oh, DARN, Honey. I "forgot" to make the appointment."

LOL

Mindie, wife to Mark, not-so-crunchy mom to Dylan (4/04); Devon (6/06); Dorothy (9/07); Derek (12/19/09); Daniel (12/18/10); Newbie D (2/22/12)

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#47 of 47 Old 06-17-2010, 01:16 AM
 
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DH reason's to circ are: not circ'ing is "grose" it "looks funny". He is also concerned that his son's look like him.

Silly question - do boys really sit around looking at their penis's going "hey...how come his is different?" lol

For the record ds(2) and dss(5) bath together and haven't seem to notice or care that they are different. More interesting the girls (much more curious than the boys) have also not said anything. They have asked such questions as "why do you have bumps on your nipples?" "why are you're boobs longer than mine?" and "what is inside my vagina?" hahaha i'm pretty sure the difference of penis's is no concern to all 5 children in the house

The "look like" argument always torques me. It might seem to make sense at first blush, but in 99% of cases it's really a deep-seated longing for validation that what was done to DP/DH wasn't harmful or worthless.

Cuz here's the reality: DS's equipment isn't going to look like DP's until he's at least 16 years old -- size, hair, coloration, etc. Even then DP will always have about 30 years on him and will look 30 years older, even in that department. And yup, penises and scrotums age along with the rest of us.

Point 2: No two circumcisions are alike. It's just a medical fact... different physicians have different circumcision methods (some take more skin off, some take less, lots don't even care if they're crooked), different instruments leave discernably different results (Gomco vs Plastibell vs Mogen vs freehand), DS's own skin type and coloration will play a big role in what a circumcision scar and exposed mucous membrane tissue might look like. What will DP think when he sees a circumcised son with a wildly different circumcision from his own? A darker scar, closer to the head, maybe crooked, maybe a skin tag. The only way to ensure a baseline look for your son is to leave him the way nature intended.

Point 2.5: A boy's glans, penile nerve system and vascular system is not through developing until puberty, which is why it comes encased in an adherent sleeve -- designed to keep irritants and pathogens off the glans, off the meatus, and out of the urethra -- and which voilà! turns into its own highly perceptive and useful sheath in adulthood. A miracle of design, not available at any price post-circumcision but provided for free at birth.

Point 3: Oh lordy, the complication rate of circumcision is disgraceful. Williams & Kapila estimated it at up to 10%, but they were speaking specifically about serious operative complications. They didn't even take a stab at ugly or unsightly. Ever cut around an orange and found that the cut didn't line up at all when you got back to start? That happens often with circumcision, especially with the Gomco clamp. All methods are notorious for skin bridges, depending on DS's skin type and how the wound is cared for. Skin tags are common, nicked glans a little less so, severed frenulum, varying thickness of scar, and numerous other visual anomalies. These bring the actual complication rate up to 20-30%.

Circumcision is an inherently messy and inconsistent procedure because there is no truly definable structure as "the foreskin". No dotted line. No universally accepted definition of a "proper cut". A dad putting his son into the circumcision roulette specifically because he wants him to come out with a penis looking just like his is asking for trouble.

Point 4: There are no studies or even reliable information that boys are fussed by not having the same circumcision status as their father, brothers or friends.

Canada, like Australia, is quickly moving away from circumcision. Most likely your son will be surrounded by intact peers. The old notion was that boys were only left intact if their parents didn't have the brains, money or love to "do them right". If your DP sees that as a reasonable summation, you have a whole 'nuther issue on your hands.

If, by chance, you guys are intrigued by generally accepted practice worldwide, consider that out of every 100 baby boys born today, only 3 will be circumcised by the age of 1. And 2 of those 3 are in North America! Odds in any other first world countries are that the boy will not get circumcised. Based on what we know today and continue to learn, circumcision of newborns is headed for the dustheap.
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