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#31 of 57 Old 06-21-2010, 02:50 AM
 
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I don't think anyone is saying that a person who is opposed to/question circ shouldn't do any research. They're saying that it's not up to the person who is opposed to find research supporting their point. If my dh were insistent that we circ, but wasn't even willing to do any research to back up a need for it, I wouldn't pay attention to him at all. If it's so very important, then he can at least make an effort. If the only effort he's willing to put forth is insisting that he's right, then he's out of luck, imo.

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#32 of 57 Old 06-21-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Otterella View Post
If just ONE PERSON had suggested I do the research against it, I wouldn't be racked with guilt and nearly die of shame every time I see my son naked.

(((Hugs, mama))).
I just couldn't read that and not respond.

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#33 of 57 Old 06-21-2010, 02:23 PM
 
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My husband is intact and he was NEVER teased about it, even 30 years ago. I asked him about that once and he looked at me, raised an eyebrow, and said, "Can you really imagine a teenage guy checking out another guy's package and getting away with it? HE'S the one who'd catch crap for that."

DS is also intact and we've never gotten any negative comments (or really, any comments) about it.
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#34 of 57 Old 06-21-2010, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by glongley
BTW, I heard from a very experienced midwife recently that she believes that Dads who insist on circumcising often have a fear that their son will never have a normal sex life. They don't know how the foreskin works, and can't imagine how you could have a satisfying sex life with the glans all covered up like that. Again, a matter of your husband getting educated.
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Originally Posted by ElliesMomma View Post
and the truth is that your son, if left intact, will have a MORE satisfying love life, thanks to the functions of the foreskin. most adult men are circumcised and don't realize what they are missing. but the head of the penis is meant to stay moist via the foreskin covering. this contributes to the sexual experience in a very positive way.

i also agree that the onus on is your husband to prove to you why this surgery is NECESSARY... not "desirable" (in your husband's eyes)... but medically necessary -- "teasing" even if it happens is not enough of a reason to do this. there are real, major risks to circumcision surgery. bleeding, MRSA infection, medical errors, pain (probably still done without anaestesia at five weeks old), great suffering on the part of the child (suffering perhaps many times worse than any possible future teasing -- which is unlikely to happen anyway, as boys are not likely to admit to checking out another boy's penis in the locker rooms).

and let's not forget: this is not your husband's body or his penis. it belongs to your son, the whole penis. you have the chance to preserve his natural penis function for him, a gift for the rest of his life. stand your ground on this. please don't cave! come back here for more support. good luck!!
Excellent advice, and GREAT posts, every one of them..! I'm intact, and grew up at a time when the ratio of of circumcised to intact was about 2-1, and had communal showers after sports practice and games, and was NEVER teased about my intactness. I am SO THANKFUL that my parents left me intact, as it was one of the BEST decisions they ever made for me. They are forever in my gratitude for that.

If you allow your son to be circumcised, you most likely will live with the regret for many months or years. If you leave him intact, HE will likely be forever grateful for your decision. My parents never discussed these things with me and my brothers, and my only regret is that I never told them how appreciative I am for them keeping me intact... It's a different time now, and likely your son WILL express his gratitude to you at some point in his life. But even if he dosen't, YOU have done the right thing...
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#35 of 57 Old 06-22-2010, 12:06 AM
 
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Stay strong, mama. Be the mama bear and protect your cub!!
Agreed. You are his mother and have the RIGHT and obligation to protect your son from anyone who wants to hurt him, even his father.

(and how sad is that? that his own daddy wants to hurt him so that other boys will like the way his penis looks... proof that Dad is not coming from a place of logic on this subject)

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#36 of 57 Old 06-22-2010, 02:04 PM
 
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I recently asked my intact DH about teasing during his k-12 years. He went to private school for high school and there were locker rooms with open showers. He told me there were one or two guys who said something, but my DH took it as insecurity on their part (and why were they standing around commenting on their peers' penises anyway?). He said he just laughed. They must have felt deep down that they were missing something.

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#37 of 57 Old 06-22-2010, 03:23 PM
 
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there are real, major risks to circumcision surgery. bleeding, MRSA infection, medical errors, pain (probably still done without anaestesia at five weeks old), great suffering on the part of the child (suffering perhaps many times worse than any possible future teasing -- which is unlikely to happen anyway, as boys are not likely to admit to checking out another boy's penis in the locker rooms).
And death. According to a recent article published in Thymos, circumcision results in the death of 117 baby boys every year. This is a higher death rate than SIDS in the first month of life. Somewhere between 1 in 5000 and 1 in 10000 circumcised babies will die.

No amount of potential teasing could justify this risk of death for my baby.
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#38 of 57 Old 06-22-2010, 07:43 PM
 
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I disagree with those that have said that someone questioning the decision to circ shouldn't research. That was me, and my failure to do research led to my son being cut. If I HAD done the research, he wouldn't have been. My husband gave me reasons that sounded logical to me at the time, and since I hadn't researched it myself, I had no idea they were completely false. If just ONE PERSON had suggested I do the research against it, I wouldn't be racked with guilt and nearly die of shame every time I see my son naked. It's easy to say that the burden of proof is on the one wanting to do the cutting when you already know how horrible it really is. But when you're just starting to question, it doesn't work that way. Circumcision, whether we like it or not, is the status quo, and as the ones wanting to change the status quo, we need to know all the arguments, both for and against it, since there's mountains of propaganda-posing-as-evidence promoting cutting that the average person might take at face value as a valid argument. It doesn't mean you have to give credence to the specious arguments, just be aware of them. And yes, in the end, "his penis, his choice" should trump all other arguments, end of story. But all too often it doesn't.


I feel the same way. For this reason I don't hesitate bringing it up when I know a mother is expecting. If I didn't say something and she regrets it and finds out I KNEW the information she wishes she had known she would resent me. That is a stake I will not risk.

On the other hand, if a doctor didn't solicit an arbitrary penis surgery on your healthy fully functioning son and did his job to instruct you on how to care for your son's complete genitals, "Don't retract, wipe like a finger from base to tip" you would see him as normal and not something that needed to be fixed. After all, if the "good" doctor is asking its gotta be a good thing right?

Why the hell do they ask if when an informed parent declines the surgery and they sigh,"Oh fantastic! I really hate doing those... your son is a lucky little guy! Now, there is no special care. Just be sure you don't retract and wipe from base to tip." ???

It should be against the law to solicit a penis reduction surgery on a non-consenting individual whose inalienable rights to personal autonomy is to be protected and respected. Is immoral to steal someone else's private property.
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#39 of 57 Old 06-22-2010, 09:23 PM
 
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OP- haven't heard from you. How are things over there?

~helen~ mama to 5 yo twins jonas and micah and my 2 yo baby boy eli
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#40 of 57 Old 07-01-2010, 04:35 PM
 
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I feel the same way. For this reason I don't hesitate bringing it up when I know a mother is expecting. If I didn't say something and she regrets it and finds out I KNEW the information she wishes she had known she would resent me. That is a stake I will not risk.
Yep, this is how I feel as well. I've posted pro-intact links on my FB page every now and then, and they've turned into quite heated debates. People get real defensive about their choices. But if the information I share helps change the mind of just ONE family out there, then it's all worth it.

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OP- haven't heard from you. How are things over there?
Yeah, that. Hope you are doing OK.

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#41 of 57 Old 08-15-2010, 01:39 AM
 
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I stayed with friends in Austria last month and my hostess told me about the only experience she has had with circumcision. Her young niece married an American guy and they live in Vienna. No plans to return to the US.

Apparently the husband shocked his Austrian wife when he told her during pregnancy, "You can make all the decisions for our children, but one. You can raise them any religion, feed them any food, vaccinate or not, breastfeed or not, clothe them any way you wish. But any boys will be circumcised. This is not negotiable now or ever."

The wife was stunned. It had never occurred to her that a child of hers would be circumcised; certainly not one born in Europe. Neither parent had a firm family reason to favor circ. Circumcision is unheard of in Austria, outside of certain extremely small communities. Obviously the "locker room" argument didn't apply! She could not fathom her husband's insistence on this, but couldn't budge him. This was a battle he was clearly willing to die on the hill for.

The boy was born in April 2010 and was circumcised right away. Apparently the father is extremely satisfied and the mother is torn up about it. Her whole family now thinks Americans are crazy.
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#42 of 57 Old 08-15-2010, 02:59 AM
 
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I stayed with friends in Austria last month and my hostess told me about the only experience she has had with circumcision. Her young niece married an American guy and they live in Vienna. No plans to return to the US.

Apparently the husband shocked his Austrian wife when he told her during pregnancy, "You can make all the decisions for our children, but one. You can raise them any religion, feed them any food, vaccinate or not, breastfeed or not, clothe them any way you wish. But any boys will be circumcised. This is not negotiable now or ever."

The wife was stunned. It had never occurred to her that a child of hers would be circumcised; certainly not one born in Europe. Neither parent had a firm family reason to favor circ. Circumcision is unheard of in Austria, outside of certain extremely small communities. Obviously the "locker room" argument didn't apply! She could not fathom her husband's insistence on this, but couldn't budge him. This was a battle he was clearly willing to die on the hill for.

The boy was born in April 2010 and was circumcised right away. Apparently the father is extremely satisfied and the mother is torn up about it. Her whole family now thinks Americans are crazy.
WOW! My heart is broken for that mother.

This is the kind of sorrow that will never leave her heart. I mean, not EVER!

Its cruel to treat mothers this way. Hurting her babies is the number one most sadistic crime against the mother.

I truly hope I succeed in building a strong healthy backbone in my boys, especially the one who is circumcised.


My arguments were:

* I don't think its a good idea. Something tells me this is not right.

* You're crazy for wanting his penis to look like your penis!

* Do guys really check out each others penises? That is so bizarre... Its perverted! and disturbing...

I didn't know much else at the time he was born. Talk about "informed consent", which is a sick joke if you ask me.

What DID sway him for son #2 and #3 to keep all they were born with was:

* Its not a religious mandate (please, please don't talk about this here. I mention it because it was his NUMBER ONE REASON). I was informed of this fact a little too late for my first son though.

* "Its not medically necessary." A quote by a new pediatrician who was examining my baby's hidden penis, botched genitals. It was the very first time we heard this. It was one of the lowest moments of our lives. We felt like we were set up. It was a scam.

That was all it took.

The reason I mention building a strong healthy backbone as paramount of importance to my parenting is so he won't grow up insecure enough to alter someone else's body so HE won't feel like the odd one out.

I also hope my daughters would be secure enough do what ever it took to protect her babies, thus protecting her heart as well.

Its more than a cultural shock. I'm sure this mother wasn't aware of the risks nor the results. Or even how its done. Then again, I dunno. Some people will do c r a z y things for "love".
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#43 of 57 Old 08-15-2010, 11:54 AM
 
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Apparently the father is extremely satisfied and the mother is torn up about it. Her whole family now thinks Americans are crazy.
I really feel for that poor mother. She will resent him for ever for this. That man has not only screwed his son's life up but made a big cleft in his marriage.
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#44 of 57 Old 08-15-2010, 05:22 PM
 
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The reason I mention building a strong healthy backbone as paramount of importance to my parenting is so he won't grow up insecure enough to alter someone else's body so HE won't feel like the odd one out.
Bravo! well put. i am going to remember that line, in case i ever hear that argument in conversations.

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#45 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all for the support and information. Our little man is still intact and hubby is still thinking. I just want all to know he is an amazing father and only wants the best for our boy. He's only looking out for him as he saw some really bad teasing when he was in school and doesn't want that to happen to our boy. We both agree that it shouldn't be an issue but he knows what he saw. The stories y'all have shared have helped.

Another issue he is dealing with is the info on the CDC website stating that uncirced are more prone to contract AIDS and other diseases. Any counter info out there? Again, hubby is an amazing, loving man and only wants the best for his family. He's not unreasonable and we are wading through the info to make the best decision.

Married to my wonderful hubbyMama to an awesome little man!
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#46 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 10:57 PM
 
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I'm so glad your hubby is being open to leaving your son intact.

Here is a link about circumcision and HIV. http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

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#47 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 11:25 PM
 
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Thank you all for the support and information. Our little man is still intact and hubby is still thinking. I just want all to know he is an amazing father and only wants the best for our boy. He's only looking out for him as he saw some really bad teasing when he was in school and doesn't want that to happen to our boy. We both agree that it shouldn't be an issue but he knows what he saw. The stories y'all have shared have helped.

Another issue he is dealing with is the info on the CDC website stating that uncirced are more prone to contract AIDS and other diseases. Any counter info out there? Again, hubby is an amazing, loving man and only wants the best for his family. He's not unreasonable and we are wading through the info to make the best decision.
HIV/AIDS -- The studies aren't clear, really. Most news in the last few years about circumcision has been dominated by the results of three randomized trials in African countries that found the procedure considerably reduces a man's risk of contracting HIV. In one of the studies, the risk was reduced by as much as 76 percent. The implications for developed companies is murky at best, and has yet to be decided. There are differences between the African and North American HIV epidemics, and the CDC has emphasized that benefits seen in the African trials, where HIV and AIDS is much more common, don't necessarily translate to America. Sexual practices also make a difference -- "dry sex" is practiced in Sub-Saharan Africa, which causes more abrasions in the vaginal wall, increasing the incidence of HIV. Scientists have even discovered in some studies that the foreskin and the protective cells included therein protect against HIV.

Also note that 80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males. One would then expect (after hearing about the African studies) that AIDS and HIV rates are higher in Europe, but this is NOT the case. America has the highest rate of both circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV/AIDS) of any developed country.

While scientists and doctors are still debating the issue of HIV and circumcision, one thing is clear -- all children, male, female, intact or circumcised, need to be taught the value of using condoms and protecting themselves against sexually transmitted diseases. If circumcision is found to reduce the chance of HIV, it still can't and won't be 100%, and sexual education is more important in preventing the spread of HIV and AIDS.



I know we're in agreement, but I just don't see how the locker room argument works anymore. We never had to shower naked and neither did my brother, even when he was involved in sports. I wouldn't pin my kid's ears, or get him a nose job because I thought he *might* get made fun of, and I wouldn't give my daughter breast implants or labiaplasty either. Infant cosmetic surgery seems like quite a drastic measure for something that he's not even sure will happen. What if he gets made fun of because he had a botched circumcision or is simply circumcised? Then what? Will it have been worth it?

All kids get made fun of something. Their laugh, their repetition of certain words, their clothes, their hair, their shoes, their acne, whatever. I've kind of accepted that my kid WILL get made fun of for something, because we all have. It's a part of life, and it will be my job to make sure my child has self-confidence and self-esteem in spite of this. I don't think removing part of his penis will help in that respect.

The kid's attitude matters too. For what it's worth, I'm from a very high circ-ing state (Michigan), and the only guy I knew who was intact was from Germany. When we (my friends and I) found out in high school, it was a discussion for about ten minutes. We asked him what it was like, and if it was weird, and he said it was no big deal. That was it. His numerous lady followers didn't seem to mind.
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#48 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 11:36 PM
 
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What if he gets made fun of because he had a botched circumcision or is simply circumcised? Then what? Will it have been worth it?
EXACTLY - If he is intact, he has a choice, and one that extremely few intact men exercise. Once a circumcision has been done, there is no putting the foreskin back on!! For what it is worth, there was a study that showed far more intact guys were happy with their status that circumcised guys. This was some years ago when intact guys were much more in the minority than today.
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#49 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 11:38 PM
 
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I just think that if my kid gets made fun of for ANYTHING, the solution is not to cater to the insecurity and CHANGE my kid -- their hair, their clothes, or whatever. I want them to think for themselves and do what they want to do, and I don't want them to learn that they should do what other people want them to do.
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[QUOTE=asunlitrose;15743150]I just think that if my kid gets made fun of for ANYTHING, the solution is not to cater to the insecurity and CHANGE my kid -- their hair, their clothes, or whatever. I want them to think for themselves and do what they want to do, and I don't want them to learn that they should do what other people want them to do.[/QUOT

Very well put !! And a very sensible approach !!
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#51 of 57 Old 08-16-2010, 11:42 PM
 
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Glad your son is still intact .

A bit of information on teasing from someone who got alot of teasing when I was a kid due to my disablities is that you just don't show them that the teasing does bother you and even if it did as kid it definetly won't bother you as an adult because why let the past rule your life you will just live in depression & dislike for others .

So forgive those of the past and forget what they done .
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#52 of 57 Old 08-17-2010, 08:51 AM
 
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...Another issue he is dealing with is the info on the CDC website stating that uncirced are more prone to contract AIDS and other diseases. Any counter info out there? Again, hubby is an amazing, loving man and only wants the best for his family. He's not unreasonable and we are wading through the info to make the best decision.
You have to keep in mind the trade offs, how to balance the advantages vs the negative consequences...

A common error made by those who want to justify infant male circumcision on the basis of medical benefits is that they believe that as long as some such benefits are present, circumcision can be justified as therapeutic, in the sense of preventive health care.

This is not correct.

A medical-benefits or 'therapeutic' justification requires that:

1) overall the medical benefits sought outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them,
2) that this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits, and
3) that these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child.

None of these conditions is fulfilled for routine infant male circumcision.

If we view a child's foreskin as having a valid function, we are no more justified in amputating it than any other part of the child's body unless the operation is medically required treatment and the least harmful way to provide that treatment.

From: The Ethical Canary: Science, Society and the Human Spirit by Margaret Somerville. Toronto, 2000

OK, so lets look at the AIDS studies. They claim that there is a 60% reduction in HIV aquisitiion in the news. But what is really being said? Actually, taken in the context of the study, they really say that circ’d men had a 1.6% chance of contracting aids, while the normal men had a 3.4% chance. Or if you were circ’d you had an incidence of 16 men out of a 1,000, while normal men had an incidence of 34 men out of 1,000.

This doesn’t sound as compelling. Or use the number in a more familiar and less frightening context. Relate that 60% to birth control, a similar situation in which you want to be very certain that you are safe. How many people will be satisfied if their birth control method only reduces the chance of pregnacny by 60%? Flip of a coin, in other words.

On top of all this, in the details, they point out that, in reality, the circ'd person still has to do all the other more effective things like condom use. So a circ'd guy loses sexual function and feelings, suffers excrutiating pain (if done as an infant), has their human rights violated in the opinion of many, and suffers complications and risks. For all of this, they then have to wear a condom like an intact man to be safe. The only benefit they get that an intact man does not also enjoy, is that IF their condom breaks or slips off, they have a reduced chance of aquiring HIV. Otherwise, they have no benefit from being circ'd.

Contrast this with an intact man. He has no pain, no risks, no complications. His human rights are not violated. He and his partner enjoy better (based on my experience having restored most of the way, I would say dramatically better) sexual function and feeling. Some argue convincingly, an intact man is more likely to wear condoms because he can feel so much more, and even with a condom, his foreskin can still move properly. And he is just as well protected as long as his condom does not break, even then, he will not "get" HIV, instead he will have a somewhat greater chance of getting it.

People throw out the 60% figure out of context. When used in the proper context, by an objective person, this arguemnt does not make sense. And since circ can be done as an adult, the better choice is to leave him intact until he is an adult. Then if he decides he wants to be circ'd to reduce his chances of aquiring HIV if his codom breaks, he can do it. And, the doctor is much more likely to do a better job since his penis has finished growing.

Regards
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#53 of 57 Old 08-17-2010, 09:09 AM
 
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I would like to add in Australia, the health authorities consider the AIDs African studies to be irrelevant to Australia.

There are many reasons, including the practice of dry sex as mentioned in earlier post, the possibility of tropical ulcers, chanchroid and other diseases (which are not a problem in western countries) that increase suseptibility to HIV infection and other factors.

Also all the evidence points to circumcision INCREASING transmission to women. This could be more important than a reduction in female to male transmission, given that male to female transmission is already higher. (You wont see this one often in the pro-circ media). The numbers in that study were small, but its likely the result is statiscally more significant than the 3 RCTs (deepens though on if less than 20% of men were exposed to HIV.) While this evidence is not rock solid, neither are the RCTs, which have all sorts of weaknesses.

http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html

Also there are a number of African countries where circed men have more HIV than intact men.
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#54 of 57 Old 08-17-2010, 09:38 AM
 
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My biggest question is.. Is it like some kind of phenomenon that we just don't hear about where boys are walking around the locker room comparing their stuff? Because I did just about every sport possible in high school plus had gym class and not once did any of my team mates see me naked. No one showers at school anymore... no one strips down to the buff at school anymore. My teenage step-kids are both in sports as well and it doesn't happen there either. Maybe once in awhile at a gym as a grown woman I have changed and showered in a locker room but by that age he would be able to choose for himself if he wants to get it done because of the "locker room theory" ... Really, to look like everyone else is just silly. People don't all dye their hair the same color, people don't cut their hair the exact same way, they don't wear colored contacts to all have the same hair color, people don't all wear the same clothes to look the same, why should they cut their penis to look the same? Doesn't make much sense.

My almost 7 year old is intact... granted, not in high school, but he's never once had an issue. His friends don't see him naked... and I would be a little concerned if they were comparing penises... but so far, so good. My husband is circ'd and in our house, it has never been any kind of issue between them. They still shower together quite frequently and DS has never made any kind of comment about looking different. He knows that he has a foreskin and Daddy doesn't. It just doesn't matter one way or another that he's different down there. He's different from Daddy in many other ways too... he doesn't question those differences. When I was making the decisions, it was such a huge issue to me. These days? We don't EVER think about it, talk about it, or even realize it as he runs around naked half the time... It's just who Elijah is and it doesn't make any kind of impact in our life. It's his body, he can choose one when he's older if he wishes. Right now, he's having fun being a little boy that could care less about whether his penis has a foreskin or not.

Jeri, Natural lovin' Mama to Elijah (9.29.03), Eden (10.2.06), and a little one lost along the way (1/12)., Step-monster to Shelby (18) and Stephen (16). Celebrating 12 years together with my soul-mate, Eric. Hoping for a rainbow1284.gif someday! 
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#55 of 57 Old 08-18-2010, 03:41 AM
 
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even if your son IS teased for having his whole penis (!) can't imagine that happening -- and did you see the NYT article stating that circ. rates have fallen in 2009 to only about 30-some-odd percent -- meaning that 2/3 of newborn boys are intact nationwide so definitely in the majority nowadays -- but even if it somehow happens that your child is teased for a year or two or even for, let's say for argument's sake, his entire school career where you use a locker room -- middle school and high school -- what, 7 years. even if that were to happen in a worst case scenario...
... you move on, your childhood is over, you might go to college, meet some grownups, begin your sex life... and then your child gets his "revenge" of living well... because his sex life will be so much better with his foreskin than it would be without it. and he gets to enjoy his sex life for the majority of his life... let's say for argument's sake, from the age of 20 to the age of 80. 60 years of better sex, as a trade off for a few years of teasing (that's not going to happen anyways). i've gotta believe that your boy (who will someday be a man and who really does own that penis anyway) would choose the lifelong great sex over running scared to circumcision to avoid adolescent teasing.

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#56 of 57 Old 08-18-2010, 08:24 AM
 
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What if your son gets teased for being circumcised...
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#57 of 57 Old 08-18-2010, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the info and links. I think he just witnessed some merciless teasing to the point that affected the poor kids ability to interact with girls. Maybe he wasn't raised being a strong individual. Not sure. I just know that seeing that kids pain has left my hubby with a desire to not pass that along. Like I said, he's coming from a place of love. Right wrong or otherwise on the issue, he loves that boy more than anything and wants him to have an amazing, productive life. He's also very open to discussion and we are waiting till we get to a place of comfort on the issue.

Married to my wonderful hubbyMama to an awesome little man!
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