Jay Gordon, MD ~ Please respond - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 82 Old 03-13-2004, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Seeing how the other thread is closed I was hoping you would discuss circ with us further over here.


You can do what we do, you choose not to. You can come out and say circ is wrong, other doctors do, and some even refuse to do them. I strongly feel it's the fault of doctors that circs are so common and I feel it's going to have to be doctors and insurance companies that end the practice. Doctors started circ in the USA, now it's up to them to put a stop to it. People look up to you for guidance. They usually do what doctors tell them to do (Not that I agree with that.), and if a doctor is wishy washy on circ and will agree to perform it for them then how are they supposed to really know how bad circ is? If it's really bad doctors wouldn't do it, right? I can't tell you how many times I've heard that before.

I really hope you will reconsider your stance on circ, and please don't feel offended by any of the posts here. This is just something that most of us see as a human rights issue, and it brings out a lot of emotions.

Oh, and I feel strongly about breastfeeding and the family bed too. Circumcision should be seen as a much more serious issue though IMO. It surgically alters the child for life, the risks are great, and it violates the child's body and rights. Not to mention it's very painful, damaging, and totally unnecessary.
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#2 of 82 Old 03-13-2004, 09:01 PM
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Thank you for starting this thread. I hope Dr. Gordon replies. His website does have anti-circ links; I would like to see him have a consistent message of being anti-circ (including when he speaks to more "mainstream" parents.) We need another famous doctor on board!
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#3 of 82 Old 03-13-2004, 11:16 PM
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PS. Dr. Gordon told me in an email that he does not perform circs. That is wonderful to know, even if he does not choose to respond to us here.
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#4 of 82 Old 03-13-2004, 11:49 PM
 
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He omits the information his customers are entitled to receive, disregarding the damage the trauma can do to the Mother/Child Breastfeeding relationship.
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#5 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 04:21 AM
 
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... by Last Minute
... He omits the information his customers are entitled to receive, disregarding the damage the trauma can do to the Mother/Child Breastfeeding relationship ...



Could you please post a link for information regarding this topic.

Thanks.
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#6 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 05:41 AM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...57#post1193157

Ps. What omission are the ellipses indicating?

:
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#7 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 06:17 AM
 
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http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/
Quote:
It has been established in numerous studies that circumcision causes changes in infant brain function and behavior. Marshall el al. (1982)1 and Howard et al (1994)5 have studied the effect of the pain, stress, and trauma, of male neonatal circumcision upon subsequent feeding behavior. They each found that male circumcision disrupts feeding behavior. Sometimes the infant is returned to the mother in an exhausted and debilitated state in which he is unable to manage the task of latching-on and feeding.5
- and -
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Breastfeeding provides many health and developmental benefits to the infant, so clearly breastfeeding failure should be avoided. Traumatic and stressful events in infancy interfere with breastfeeding success. The AAP Policy statement on breastfeeding states that traumatic procedures should be avoided lest they interfere with breastfeeding initiation. Taddio and colleagues report that male neonatal nontherapeutic circumcision causes an "infant analogue of posttraumatic stress disorder."6 Rhinehart has clearly and indisputably documented neonatal male circumcision as a traumatic procedure.7 Parents who intend to provide the benefits of breastfeeding should think carefully before subjecting their new baby to circumcision.
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#8 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 10:52 AM
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I would like him to talk more about the circ/breastfeeding association, as well. But I am pleased that he at least doesn't perform them himself.
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#9 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd like to know if he won't come out against circ because he's afraid that would end his career or what? Other doctors have done it, why not you Dr. Jay?


Let's all try to keep it civil. I don't want this to turn like one of the other threads did. One of them was pretty bad. Dr. Jay was really attacked, and that is not my intention so I hope he doesn't see my post in that way.

And I am very glad to hear he doesn't do circs. Is that because Peds don't do them there or is that a choice he made?
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#10 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 11:08 AM
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His personal religious beliefs may conflict with being more vocal against circ.

He said in his email that he has never performed a circ because he won't inflict pain on a baby without a good reason.

PS. AnnMarie, I love your Senior title!
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#11 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 11:10 AM
 
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Quote:
... by Last Minute
... PS - What omission are the ellipses indicating?

:


Not indicative of omission. Simple style choice.








And the link to the thread was not an answer to *my* question, was it? Because I didn't see anything about the nursing/circumcision question ...
unless I missed something. And thanks for the other link.
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#12 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by somemama
His personal religious beliefs may conflict with being more vocal against circ.

He said in his email that he has never performed a circ because he won't inflict pain on a baby without a good reason.

PS. AnnMarie, I love your Senior title!

Thanks! Ditto.



WTG Dr. Jay! By not performing them IS taking a stand, so good for you!
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#13 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 11:28 AM
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Yes, I'm much happier now knowing that he doesn't perform circs himself.

But it is still a little strange that he comes to MDC to promote talking to us on the radio, but he won't talk to us here on this forum. Oh well.
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#14 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 01:36 PM
 
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Look- first of all his request was posted on the Vax forum (and others?) not here. His request was for topics of AP concern and he listed a few and circumcision was NOT listed. We may have assumed that it was covered under the broad definition of AP principles... but he didn't ask for questions about circumcision for the radio show on the Vax forum.

Yes, the circumcision issue MAY be a beef that people want to have with him, or his website, or book, or magazine articles... there gripes may be legit... but this issue WAS NOT one of the ones that he asked for input. He didn't start it, he didn't bring it up.

I don't think it's fair to him to get all bent out of shape that he does not want to engage in a picked fight on a topic that he was not addressing.

What if I went somewhere to talk about circumcision and I was stopped at the door by people saying, unless you totally reform or become outspoken about your opinions about abortion we are going to throw rocks at you and everything you say.

Did it ever occur to you that he might not even be at liberty to tell you why he can't/won't talk about circumcision? You can't go forcing a person to be a spokesperson.

Have you thought that it's possible that if he spoke out about it that he would totally lose ... not his audience... but his connections with the powerhouses that connect him to those audiences?

We all have to make choices, I have had to make choices in my life that favored intactivism over breastfeeding- because of opressive forces that would silence me coming from LLL. LLL says that I am NOT at liberty to speak truthfully about circumcision... that the issue must be only abbreviated into a distilled message about how it hurts breastfeeding... that's like saying slaves toiling in cotton fields is bad because monoculture farming is hurtful to the enviornment... it's downright INSULTING.

Please don't try to push or encourage Dr. Jay Gordon into making lame LLL level arguments against cirucmcision. It's sexist and demeaning to children. Children are entitled to the best nutrition, and they are also entitled to their whole sex organ... and their entitlement to their sex organ is not justified by a threatened chance to get nourished at the breast.

It is pointless to ask a person incapable of speaking out for the human rights of children to do so.

Direct TV- Don't you think it's odd that I can find a show about sex change operations or intersexuals ... even "taboos" on discovery health on just about any night of the week- but never a peep about circumcision. channels showing nothing but non stop birth and pregnancy- I have never seen them mention circumcision to an expecting mom- never bring a consent form, never show them take the baby... never show the genital torture... total black out of information. Surely it's not just an oversight, or a lack of people willing to speak- you know the panel- they are not Ted Kajinski's hiding in the forest- they have their phone numbers right there on the websites... if someone wanted to make a show you know who to call...you know the show would be interesting, you know people would tune in- even if they didn't agree- but the topic will not even be introduced to be argued... not by Oprah, maybe Bill Maher would bring it up... oh I forgot- he got silenced didn't he?

Have you heard about what is going on with Howard Stern right now?

Can you imagine for a minute that the black out might not be about people's willingness to speak... that there might be a lot more going on with what we are allowed to hear?

Right here... right here on MDC... thread locked, posts deleted...

Yes, someone has got to do some challenging. I think that Candice made some great points and they were SHOCKING... they were shocking because we are never allowed to hear her questions in the public setting. They were right on! Maybe she was rude to Dr. Jay- just slamming out of the shadows with a well planned and premeditated suckerpunch. OUCH! Poor Dr. Jay... he didn't ask for that- it was awful!

But really- it may be against the guidelines to behave like that here at MDC- but wouldn't it be nice if we could slam the world with hearing some suckerpunch questions... even if we didn't have a prizefighter spokesperson.

But I guess even the call in shows are canned.

Welcome to the world little baby, meet your Big Brother.

Love Sarah
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#15 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Sarah


I don't think it's fair to him to get all bent out of shape that he does not want to engage in a picked fight on a topic that he was not addressing.

Sarah, I was not bent out of shape, nor was I picking a fight with him. I was trying to discuss circumcision with him. I'm not going to change how I post for him because he's a doctor.
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#16 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 03:01 PM
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Right here... right here on MDC... thread locked, posts deleted...
What are you implying Sarah?

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#17 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 03:14 PM
 
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yes, he is a Dr, but he is also a person. He knows the risks and dangers of circ, just like we do. He chooses not to perform them, and he does have an anti-circ position. Let's not try to alienate him. He has to work slowly, planting seeds, like the rest of us. If he starts out with a loud bang, he's going to turn ppl off and they're going to think, "what a crazy guy, I'm going to circ anyway." It's all about planting seeds. This is going to be a slow movement, and we all know that. We just have to be patient and accept the assistance we get from those that can help, even if it's just a little bit.

~Christy crochetsmilie.gif, mom to DD Sage (12-2003) joy.gif and DS Isaac (04-2012)  babyboy.gif, wife to Josh geek.gif.

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#18 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 04:08 PM
 
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Cynthia-

I understand why what happened did... just as I understand why Dr. Jay Gordon can't be outspoken in the national media about circumcision. Because there are rules. I wan't criticising.

Maybe not the same rules, maybe not for the same reasons- but the fact is- certain challenges are not allowed. (for example- not being allowed to discuss ritual circumcision)

Even at the places like this.

My point was not that MDC was out of line... but that, if MDC can't allow Candice to surprise Dr. Jay ... why would NPR allow Dr. Jay to surprise America?

People might be offended, feelings could be hurt, the peaceful atmosphere might fall apart, flame wars might erupt. We need to censor the troublemakers, ban the taboo, for the good of the whole system.

We certainly can't go having a few million circumcised men seeing their scar in a new way the next time they pee. We can't take away their solace.

My husband and I have actually been arguing over the Candice thing today believe it or not- he is shocked and outraged and I am shrugging my shoulders thinking, "Well what can you expect- you can't go attacking someone out of the blue at that level" (although I have been known to do it myself...) We both agree that Candice's points were very well made and her POV was one of astounding clarity. I have no idea who she is, I don't "hang" at the Vax forum... but WOW- that lady is a Tigress- I feel so lucky that I had a chance to see her posts when they were there... the ideas about the appeal to authority and who is an expert that she presented- AWESOME- it was a great tweak to my brain... a beautiful lightbulb- Candice flipped that switch for me. ...
and all at the same time- Oh Candice... why Dr.Jay? Couldn't you have picked on an enemy who is more emeny-ish? And if aiming a kick at celebrity Doctors and their views, couldn't she have delievered it to Dr. Sellout Sears (who wrote in this month's PARENTING "While breast milk contains the highest-quality of iorn in any food, there isn't enough of it in mother's milk... " ) But all my sympathy for Dr. Jay aside... that would be missing the point. Candice was making a brave statement that was going to be inherently rude- no matter who it was directed to... there was not way for that statment to be made within the guidelines. Just like there is no way to say that circumcision is sexually damaging without in the same breath calling all those circumcised men sexually damaged, without calling all those colleagues sexual mutilators. That's why it can't get said, because the core of the revolution is offensive, and it can't be polite.

My husband holds all silent doctors accountable for the sexual damage they allow to happen within their profession without question, he thinks that Dr. Jay has a duty to spit it out- no matter what the fallout... not that we want to hear his opinion just because he is a Dr, but because he has an ethical duty to human beings who need help, and that hopefully another and another Dr. will step up to the plate to be honorably blacklisted as people who abhor the sexual mutilation of children. And I shrug my shoulders and say, "What do you expect, you can only fight on so many fronts, it's nice to have some of your message heard."

It's going to take a brave bridge burner, someone like Candice, to be able to say the things that need to be said about circumcision. Circumcision needs people who don't have any other interests to protect, who aren't stuck trying to balance the good of education on breastfeeding against the threat of losing it all. Which is why, although I wish for it as hard as Ann-Marie that Dr. Jay would put the ethical bite into the information which moves it from appoligist filler to truth.. I know there is no point in tryng to hound a professional person with their whole career at stake to take on the unspeakable cause.

Leave it to the people who have true freedom of speech.

Love Sarah
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Sarah, great couple of post. You are absolutly right. Dr. jay Gordon probably has his hands tied more than we can know. At least he doesn't perform circs (does Dr. Sears?). I wish I had had a chance to read Candince's post, they sound like they were very thought provoking.
It is about planting seeds. Although I have a hard time not coming out "guns a blazin", it's just my personality , when I believe something it is with my whole being and I get very passionate. Planting seeds takes so damn long. Infant circumcision needed to stop before it ever began. Enough is enough.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#20 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sarah, I've seen some of your posts to parents that have circed or were thinking about it, and I have to tell you that your post about Dr. Jay really has me perplexed. :


Doctors must take a stand for this practice to stop.
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#21 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 06:22 PM
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According to his own words, he's been against circ for 25 years. Isn't that "slowly" enough for the seeds to be planted? :

You're quite the conspiracy theorist. IMHO, it's just related to his religion.

But, if his hands are tied, that's too bad.

Anyone catch "Iron Jawed Angels" on HBO? Even though the topic was different (suffragist movement), it carried a powerful message to us all about never giving up the fight, regardless of the powers that be.

Yes, I found it curious that he posted on the vax forum, and the mods never moved his message to the more general TAO board. Perhaps he felt that forum was "safe" for him (and it wasn't.)

But he'd have to know that, in appealing to an AP audience, the circ issue would come up. His list of AP topics said "and more," which left the door open to the circ question. I emailed his lovely and talented Mary a question about circ. I doubt I'll hear back. Canned? Yes, quite. Too bad. I like NPR.

And you're right, Ann, Sarah is pulling her punches here, and usually she doesn't.
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#22 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 06:43 PM
 
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AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?

And as for this seed sewing... I don't think it's done by planting a moderate seed at the moment it's desperatly needed... it's done by planting a radical seed decades before you harvest the fruit. That's what sewing seeds is about.

Not by saying to the pregnant woman, "You realise that circumcising this baby could make it more difficult for YOU to breastfeed him."

It's done by saying to the 16 year old boy, "It is unconstitutional to deny protection to people on the basis of gender or race, so why is it that it is illegal to even draw a line wih a razor on the genitals of a girl - and yet the AAP says that cultural considerations are VALID when considering mutilating a boy."

Love Sarah
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#23 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 07:13 PM
 
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Hey Ladies~

First, I'm a redhead! Second, my name is Sarah Elizabeth. Third, I'm "some mama" too! And Fourth, I love the way you three post!! You guys throw down like no one else about the stuff that really matters... How nice that we're all on the same team!

I'm always torn.. I never fail to absolutely SLAM someone with my opinion before I even know I've done it.. I'll be with a group of friends that I have *so much* in common with, it never occurs to me that we might have that ONE issue where we disagree...

I throw out there that I believe PS is damaging to children, or that circ'ing is senseless genital mutilation of boys/men, and sure enough, someone flips out. But they usually wait to do it until I'm gone. AND SOWING SEEDS... SUCKS!! I too just want people to blanking WAKE UP. What I appreciate here is how we confront each other to get to the bottom of issues, rather than just assume we know what the other poster was saying, and holding on to those angry/bitter feelings.

I learn more every day here! Wish I had seen Candice's posts, as well!

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It's such a relief to finally trust yourself.
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#24 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 07:15 PM
 
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I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this one of my causes.

Jay
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#25 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 07:19 PM
 
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I usually don't read this forum as a messianic mama (born and raised jewish, practicing Christian as an adult - my son was circumcized in a brit milah by a mohel/urologist).... but i saw the title and read a bit. I guess I'm not here enough to have even known the good doc had been here. Should read more. lol.

Anyway, my dh brought up a thought when I discussed it with him. He said basically that just as many thought Mel's "Passion" might spark antisemitism.... that some folks might feel that circumcision debate using words like "mutilation" might be deemed antisemetic. Generally public speakers, public figures, do try to steer clear of being labeled antisemites.

just my dh's thought on why Dr.Gordon might choose not to practice routine circumcision as a pediatrician but not take a public stand against it. I mean only a small percentage of Americans are Jewish and have their sons circ'd in a bris - i think its like 2% compared to the 86% Christians and the other 12% of other religious or no religious affiliations (will have to check primetimes poll again to be sure of those numbers)... but still, maybe?

again. just his thought.
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#26 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 08:10 PM
 
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Dr. Gordon:

I want to thank you for having the courage to come here and address our concerns and hope you will continue to engage in the debate. I was afraid you would dodge this issue and I am grateful to be proven wrong.

Thus far, I have found two issues that I disagree with you on. One is the proper pain relief for the circumcision procedure. In the 1999 AMA sponsored study, Dorsal Penile Nerve Block (DPNB) was found to be ineffective and the only effective method was found to be subcutaneous ring block. Ideally, the ring block would be preceeded by EMLA cream with sufficient time to work (30 minutes or so). I think as a humanitarian gesture, you could advocate ring block instead of DPNB. As you know, there is not much difference, just the difference of 3 local injections instead of one and the application of EMLA cream with time to work. The latest research shows that less than 4% of circumcisers have EVER used this method. That is appalling and we can use your respected voice in this issue. I think it is also important that you make it perfectly clear that even with a ring block, the procedure is not pain free, only attenuated.

The other thing is not as easy. I take issue with your statement that it is a parents choice. Many parents take that statement as justification with the good doctor's blessing to circumcise their child. When the steel was taken to my genitals, my choice was purloined by a doctor that told my parents that it was their choice and they believed him. It wasn't his choice and it wasn't my parents choice. It was mine and mine alone. My choice and full sexuality was stolen from me simply because I could not defend myself and speak up for myself. I believe you can get your message across without this pablum statement and without offending your listeners. You have chosen to take the podium in the public spotlight and with that comes a certain responsibility. I respectfully ask that you take that responsibility and construct a position that does not pass the rights of a man to his genitals to anyone else. I think it can be done. There are others who are doing it and not losing their public voice.



Respectfully,
Frank
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#27 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.


Jay
Wonderful!

Yes, those are huge victories. We are so glad to have you here with us. I'm sorry we all got off on the wrong foot on the vax thread. And I realize that I perhaps came off as rude over there, as well.

I'm not asking you to commit to this as your only issue. But this is my only remaining question: Why take a harder stance on circ in certain arenas than in others? Why not be consistent with your message, whether that is a moderate or more radical message? Why list lots of anti-circ links on your website, but be so neutral in other venues?

What you say about circ in your book Listening to Your Baby particularly bothers me. I almost wish you hadn't mentioned circ at all there, since you come across as really neutral.

The phrase you use that particularly bothers me is "TRY not to circ your son." Try not to? What does that mean, exactly? Like I might stumble and accidentally circ him? I try to lose weight; I didn't try not to circ my son, I just didn't circ him. See the difference?

You present other non-mainstream concepts in that book--such as co-sleeping and delayed vaxing or non- vaxing. So, it's not as if you've written a mainstream book, anyway. So, why not be a little stronger against circ? Why not say that you don't perform circs and you wouldn't circ a son yourself? If you consider it a personal question (which I disagree with, by the way), why not at least state what you would do personally?

I know it's your book and you can do what you want with it, but if you were to change it to a stronger anti-circ message, it would then be the perfect AP book to give to everyone I know who is expecting a baby. (Since you already cover so many other important issues, such as breastfeeding.)

Thank you for your time.
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#28 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Sarah
AnnMarie an Somemama- Where is the incongruity? Could you please give an example of the sort of thing you are talking about?


It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.
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#29 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by somemama
It's the general tone, I think. (And AnnMarie can respond for herself, of course.)

With most parents who are on the fence about circ, you say in a no-holds-barred kind of way, "circ is barbaric and shame on you for not realizing it this very second."

You've left the shame out of your post to Dr. Gordon. I think that's the difference we were pointing out. No big deal, though.
Yup, exactly.
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#30 of 82 Old 03-14-2004, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Jay Gordon, MD
I do not perform circumcisions, have never performed one and never will.

Medically, the choice is easy: Do not circumcise your baby.

Personally, some people have a hard time with this issue for reasons you're all familiar with and disagree with.

The point I have tried to make is that my job and my goals do not allow me to "lock out" families because they feel they feel they must circumcise their sons for religious reasons or personal reasons. I tell them how I feel, why I feel this way and they choose. I have convinced many people to leave their sons intact when they had planned otherwise and perhaps if I were completely unyielding in this area they might not have listened to me. These are huge victories.

I have tremendous respect for those who have made this their primary cause and I would hope they respect my making this one of my causes.

Jay

I think you might have misunderstood. I don't think, and I don't think anyone else does either, that you should "lock out" anyone. Your post cleared up a lot of things for me. I was under the impression that you didn't tell them how you feel and why. You are to be commended for taking a stand against circ. I know it's hard.

I'd still like to see some info against circ in your FAQ section though.
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