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#1 of 33 Old 09-15-2010, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I always assumed I would just circumsize my boy. I am beginning to believe it is just another unnecessary medical procedure. I have doing a bit of research and I just don't know if I can have my child circumsized knowing what I know now. However my husband just says "just do it, no big deal." My mother is completely pro-circumcision and throws a huge fit if I even suggest other wise. Thing is her excuses are purely cosmetic. It seems so wrong to me that she would want to subject her grandchild to that kind of pain because she think no circ penis' are gross. I don't know what the gender of the baby will be and we don't plan on finding out. But I don't know how to get my family in the same boat as me after years of circ. just being the thing to do.

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#2 of 33 Old 09-15-2010, 11:02 PM
 
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Well, I guess my question is, why are you even discussing this with your mother? Why do you think it's necessary to get your family in the same boat as you regarding the private question of your child's genitalia? Really, this isn't a conversation you need to be having with anyone but your partner.

If anyone else brings it up, simpy don't engage.
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#3 of 33 Old 09-15-2010, 11:16 PM
 
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i'm sorry to hear of your troubles w/ your mom & dh. i agree tho that this needs to only be between you & your dh. here is an article just for you that will explain why your husband is for it: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html for your mom, you could just let her know you appreciate her concern & don't want to discuss it any further. please pass the bean dip. repeat as necessary.

i'm not sure how far along you are, but you could simply start saying that since there is no medical reason to do it (no med assoc in the world recommends it & at least one now thoroughly are against it), it's an elective procedure. only the person who will have to live w/ the results of said procedure should be the one to make the decision, your son. so, you are making no decision & neither is your dh. you are leaving your son as he was made.

you could also send your dh here: www.circumcisiondecisionmaker.com

hth,
sus

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#4 of 33 Old 09-15-2010, 11:45 PM
 
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Can you be super blunt with your mom? Tell her that if it's going to gross her out so much she won't ever babysit or spend enough time to have to deal with a diaper change so she doesn't have to deal with it...

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#5 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 01:23 AM
 
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Personally I would just tell your mom its your decision and that is the end of the discussion. Im not even planning on bringing up the subject with my MIL (my mom passed away) if we have a boy, its none of her business.
As for your DH has he seen a circ procedure? It is totally different for a lot of people when they see what the baby actually goes through. You can find videos of them on YouTube.

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#6 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 02:24 AM
 
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the others are right: quit talking about it with your mother. intact baby penises are not gross -- they are baby penises! just the way they were made.

and, bottom line, even though it's important to have your spouse on board with your decision, if you birth in a hospital, YOU are seen as the patient, and it's almost always YOUR decision and YOUR signature that is needed to circumcise your baby. your spouse may be able to get it done by himself at a later time, but in order to circumcise in the "typical" timeframe of 2 days PP, the hospital needs only YOUR signature on the form.

so, simply decide for yourself that you aren't going to take away from your son the foreskin nature made for him to enjoy his entire life. that you won't put him through an unnessary and brutally painful operation that is usually done without any pain relief, that he won't pee and poop into open wounds for his first two weeks of life, that you won't subject him to the possibility of severe bleeding, infections including hospital acquired MRSA, unexpected damage to his penis, etc. and finally, that you respect him enough to let HIM decide for himself if he wants a whole penis or a circumcision... when he is old enough to make that decision for himself.

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#7 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 02:42 AM
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I would wonder why my mother was fixated on my future son's penis. And I would ask her why.

As a parent, you have to learn to do what's right for your child, even in the face of opposition. Who cares what other people think? On this issue, you only have to answer to your son.
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#8 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 03:55 AM
 
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Your mother doesn't get a vote - her opinion does not matter in the least.

Your husband also doesn't get a vote.

And YOU do not get a vote, either.


The only person who gets to decide if they want to give up sensitive, healthy, genital tissue is the actual owner of the genitals - your son.

His body, his choice.

Ann-Marita. I deleted my usual signature due to, oh, wait, if I say why, that might give too much away. 

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#9 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by soontobemommyof3 View Post
I always assumed I would just circumsize my boy. I am beginning to believe it is just another unnecessary medical procedure. I have doing a bit of research and I just don't know if I can have my child circumsized knowing what I know now. However my husband just says "just do it, no big deal." My mother is completely pro-circumcision and throws a huge fit if I even suggest other wise. Thing is her excuses are purely cosmetic. It seems so wrong to me that she would want to subject her grandchild to that kind of pain because she think no circ penis' are gross. I don't know what the gender of the baby will be and we don't plan on finding out. But I don't know how to get my family in the same boat as me after years of circ. just being the thing to do.
WELCOME to the forum! And for looking into the issue and for wanting to protect your innocent precious baby from harm. Way to go mama-bear!

(bold mine)First of all, amputating ANOTHER person's healthy functioning USEFULL body part IS a big deal, a huge deal, actually.
As to your mom's comment, you can answer with scintific facts that we will hand into your hands, but depending on your relationship with your mom, you can also say something along the lines of (at least I'd say it): "Oh what a relief to know that he will never end up in bed with you" . I SO wish my husband was intact, foreskin is there for a very good reason. It has a sexual function for BOTH partners in addition to its impotrant protective role.

I have a LOT of videos I'd gladly post for you, but I think the more info we pour into the thread the more overwhelming it might be to start looking at it. Therefore, I would highly recommend to start your research with this gentle yet very educational video: Circumcision Decision. They interview MDs on the subject as well as show a victim of female genital cutting comparing the two. A very well professionally done 20 min long video http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5256830319025#

Also the first link to start your reading with (and it was a real eye-opener for my husband) is the history of circ in North America, which is cure/prevention of masturbation. Masturbation was concidered to be dirty, shameful and evil and was blamed for many medical conditions, including blindness and retardation. This is a great short-and-straight to the poing link for that: A Short History of Circumcision in the Physicians' Own Words http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm
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#10 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 10:34 AM
 
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I'd be very creeped out if ANY family member was obsessed with my son's body . She has no business discussing it, and NO SAY in what doesn't belong to her. You don't have to convince your family, just go ahead and protect your child.
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#11 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 11:32 AM
 
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It's not her decision and there's no reason she has to be on board for you to leave him intact. Yes, it would be nice if she agreed with you, but since she doesn't, just tell her it's not up for discussion!

As far as DH goes, I would have him watch a video of one being done and ask him if he still thinks it's "no big deal".
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#12 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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For your mother, I would just tell her that she made the decisions with her children, now it is you and your husband's turn. The thing that helped one of my friends make her mother think about it is ask her if she would be willing to get a female cir comparable to a male circ in this country. She pointed out how gross female genitals are, and yet we don't feel the need to alter them.

oAlisha- eternal companion to mike:, mother to three energetic boys (02):, (05), and (07) and one sweet little girl 3/13.  Two in heaven.7/21/2010, 11/05/2011 mecry.gif.

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#13 of 33 Old 09-16-2010, 03:10 PM
 
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I had issues with my mom as well. But she loves my ds just like she loves her other grandkids and we just dont talk about it any more.

 
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#14 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 10:47 AM
 
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I actually dealt with something similar only it was my DAD that was pressuring me to do it. And my DH seemed to not really have an opinion one way or the other, but was leaning towards doing it. (I sat him down and had him read an article about it, which completely changed his mind at the end, though.)

Anyway, my dad was really starting to get to me and then one day, my mom pulled me aside and told me she always felt really bad about circing my brother. She said she never really wanted to (she was always kind of a naturalist/hippy) but my dad pressured her to do it. She didn't go with him when he had it done but she said she heard him shrieking and crying from her hospital room and it still makes her cringe to think about it more than 25 years later.

Go with your gut on this one. I think your son would rather have his penis intact than know his grandma likes the way it looks. Keep in mind also that she is two generations behind him. Times have changed. When you know better, you do better.

Think about it this way, it's not your decision to make, so you don't actually have to think about it anymore. Case closed.
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#15 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 11:20 AM
 
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I never discussed it with our family before DS was born. No one asked (of course they never thought too, I'm sure they all assumed we would circ because they all did and why wouldn't we? when they were having kids a great majority of people in the US did have their baby boys circ'd). The only person I discussed it with was DH because no one else has any right to have a say on that decision (and really, IMO that decision should be up to DS which is why we didn't have it done).

Of course, if they already know about it then it is too late. I would tell them you aren't interested in discussing it anymore and keep the discussion about it between you and your DH.
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#16 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 01:08 PM
 
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The only time it will matter to your mother is if and when she changes his diaper. If she is not going to respect intact care (which is to leave it alone!) then she should never be given the opportunity to change his diaper.

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#17 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 03:14 PM
 
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I hope I don't get flagged for this, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

A lot of posters are trying to say that your mother is "obsessed" and "fixated" on your child's genitals. This is probably not the case. I mean, many of us are intactivists and have tried to get others to see circumcision as we see it. I doubt we would appreciate being called "obsessed" or "fixated" with the genitals of our friends or relatives children simply for trying to get them to agree with us. It's easy to say things like that about her because we don't like her opinion, but I'm sure we would hate to have the same things said about us.

That being said, I do think that if your mother refuses to respect your point of view that the subject must be dropped. If you're already at that point just say that you'll have to agree to disagree and not discuss it anymore. This is how things are with my mother. She insisted that a circ would have to be done at some point because the only intact person in our family for generations (a cousin) was circumcised as a teen for "repeat infections" (I attribute this to forcible retractions as an infant). I think to some extent she's been able to change her mind (although she hasn't said as such) because she's changed diapers and helped my son go potty and there's obviously nothing gross about it and he's never had an issue. I hope I've been able to influence my entire family for the good in leaving my son intact and showing them it's totally natural and normal.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your mother for being concerned with her grandson- she's simply misinformed about the intact penis. She's been indoctrinated by a culture obsessed with circumcision for generations and that will likely take some time to undo. You can be a great influence on her by standing your ground and being confident in your decision to let your son be as perfect as the day he is born.
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#18 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 05:05 PM
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I hope I don't get flagged for this, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

A lot of posters are trying to say that your mother is "obsessed" and "fixated" on your child's genitals. This is probably not the case. I mean, many of us are intactivists and have tried to get others to see circumcision as we see it. I doubt we would appreciate being called "obsessed" or "fixated" with the genitals of our friends or relatives children simply for trying to get them to agree with us. It's easy to say things like that about her because we don't like her opinion, but I'm sure we would hate to have the same things said about us
I also feel that way about such a comment. With my mom I would just joke something along the lines of "That it is a relief to know than my son will never end up in her bad" to such comment and drop the issue. If she continues to hummer the subject I would show her a circ video and explained the functions and benefits of having a foreskin. If she kept going even after that, I would simply ask her to not bring it again if she does not want to completely infuriate me. She made her parenting choices and now it is my turn. Period! (as simple as that)
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#19 of 33 Old 09-17-2010, 06:56 PM
 
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I hope I don't get flagged for this, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

A lot of posters are trying to say that your mother is "obsessed" and "fixated" on your child's genitals. This is probably not the case. I mean, many of us are intactivists and have tried to get others to see circumcision as we see it. I doubt we would appreciate being called "obsessed" or "fixated" with the genitals of our friends or relatives children simply for trying to get them to agree with us. It's easy to say things like that about her because we don't like her opinion, but I'm sure we would hate to have the same things said about us.

That being said, I do think that if your mother refuses to respect your point of view that the subject must be dropped. If you're already at that point just say that you'll have to agree to disagree and not discuss it anymore. This is how things are with my mother. She insisted that a circ would have to be done at some point because the only intact person in our family for generations (a cousin) was circumcised as a teen for "repeat infections" (I attribute this to forcible retractions as an infant). I think to some extent she's been able to change her mind (although she hasn't said as such) because she's changed diapers and helped my son go potty and there's obviously nothing gross about it and he's never had an issue. I hope I've been able to influence my entire family for the good in leaving my son intact and showing them it's totally natural and normal.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your mother for being concerned with her grandson- she's simply misinformed about the intact penis. She's been indoctrinated by a culture obsessed with circumcision for generations and that will likely take some time to undo. You can be a great influence on her by standing your ground and being confident in your decision to let your son be as perfect as the day he is born.
Great post. I think our goal should always be to educate, and I can't think of a better way to make a person shut down and never listen to another word you have to say than by insinuating that they have pedophilic and/or incestuous tendencies. If she is capable of one day seeing how wrong she used to be about circ, let her remember how patient and loving you were to her despite the irrational fits she was throwing at the time.

Please keep working on your husband, though! Can you ask him do some research on his own and come to you with better reasons than "it's no big deal"? Once he's had a chance to think through why exactly he wants to put his son through this, you can better address his concerns.

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#20 of 33 Old 09-18-2010, 01:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dianakaye View Post
I hope I don't get flagged for this, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

A lot of posters are trying to say that your mother is "obsessed" and "fixated" on your child's genitals. This is probably not the case. I mean, many of us are intactivists and have tried to get others to see circumcision as we see it. I doubt we would appreciate being called "obsessed" or "fixated" with the genitals of our friends or relatives children simply for trying to get them to agree with us. It's easy to say things like that about her because we don't like her opinion, but I'm sure we would hate to have the same things said about us.
I agree, but at the same time...there's something really offputting about having such a strong opinion about how her grandson's penis will look. Her arguments are cosmetic, and I've always found that vaguely creepy (from moms, as well as other parties). If the OP's mom felt it was medically necessary, I could see that. Wanting to perform cosmetic surgery on an infant's genitals is just...creepy.

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#21 of 33 Old 09-18-2010, 03:40 AM
 
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aww mama, that is so awful. i can't imagine my mom saying something on my unborn child was "gross"

good for you for looking into the facts. there is a lot of good info out there, but really going with your instincts is best. your baby is perfect the way he is

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#22 of 33 Old 09-20-2010, 12:37 PM
 
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He is YOUR son, not your mothers son. Just don't discuss it with her anymore.

As for your DH, just tell him that it's HIS penis, and HIS decision. I told my son's father that I wouldn't put him on the birth certificate or let him be at the hospital if he still wanted to argue with me about it. Ask him if it was your daughter, would you circumcise her? Why is there a divide in gender? It's wrong on both genders!!!!!

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#23 of 33 Old 09-20-2010, 03:41 PM
 
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I have an idea for situations like this (and I think when couples argue over the decision it would work too) that I think is interesting... I don't know if it would really work- but the concept of it seems compelling to me.

The basic idea is- Respecting the child's autonomy and right to make this decision is going to be a given- but that still leaves all these other people at the time of the birth who feel that they know something needs to be done and they feel bad that it's not being done. So- give them their say- let them say their argument... TO THE KID... let them make their case to him.

I think a dated letter would be nice. "Dear Baby Boy, At the time that you were born I tired to talk some sense into your mother..."

But what I'd really love to see is a youtube video- in fact- I've considered making a "play acting" video of this exact thing for activism- I think it might have a Penn/Teller type of ironic wit to it.

I guess what I like so much about this idea is that when the child is a hypothetical person that you are going to do something to- all these arguments for circumcision seem reasonable enough to the person making them- but suddenly when you imagine presenting them to a person (who you love) who is intact and accepts his body- well it gets pretty petty and hurtful real fast.

I also think about all the people who TRY to change someone's mind and can't... and they walk away heartbroken and feel like they just have to accept it... I say- make a record of what you did do- (I wish we could just record the actual argument) ...cue exasperated pregnant lady setting up the webcam... "Hi there little baby- your dad (grandma) and I were just talking about something and it started to get out of hand really fast and I thought that no matter how this turns out that it's actually really important that you see this so you know how it all went down." (and at that point- I see the other person's arguments packing their bags and leaving.)
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#24 of 33 Old 09-21-2010, 02:27 AM
 
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Can you describe the reaction you have to the idea of a father requesting the surgical shaping of his infant daughter's labia to suit his personal preference for pretty?

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#25 of 33 Old 09-21-2010, 01:22 PM
 
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I agree that you need to remind her whose child this is and that she doesn't get a say. I would also tell her to educate herself before trying to impose her outdated ideas on other people and express ideas about things that she is ill-informed about. I would also tell her that she made the choice to alter her child's genitals and you have the right to choose not to without her interference and/or judgement. I hope no one in either of our families tries to engage me in that kind of discussion, because I really doubt I would be able to keep my cool.

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#26 of 33 Old 10-19-2010, 02:09 AM
 
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I can't speak to the religious issues...

but when I decided that I did not want DS to be circed, my mom got really upset about it. Apparently her first husband was intact and had lots of problems with infections... anyway it came up in convo and in a really angry tone, she said, "well I think you're making a big mistake." and I actually had the guts to say, "well the good news is that it doesn't matter what you think about it b/c you're not the mom." She has never said a single word about it since. She also stopped talking against a lot of other things (like home birth, and cloth diapers, and such).

My mom and I generally a good relationship. Arguing isn't normal for us. But from time to time, we do have a strong disagreement. It's good that our relationship is strong enough to be able to take it.

And really, she's a GREAT grandma. DS is really lucky.

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#27 of 33 Old 10-19-2010, 02:30 AM
 
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For your mom, she doesn't need to agree with you on it... she just needs to know not to force retract his foreskin during diaper changes or bathtime but to only allow the owner of the penis to do that (your possible future son)

For your husband, the arguments you use will depend on why he is for circ. Is he afraid of locker room teasing? Is he struggling with you wanting to keep your son intact while he is circ'd and hearing it as 'your penis is bad, our son's will be good.' ? Does he just like going with the status quo without ever questioning why? Is he worried about your (possible future) son needing one as an adult and it hurting 'worse' and not understanding that it hurts just as much as an infant only they can't say so... and also pee and poop into the cut without having the same medications as an adult would have to help block the pain?

Ultimately, your (possible future) son DOES deserve an opinion. You can always get a circumsicion later but undoing a circ is extremely difficult (some say you can't undo it but there are a few men out there who have had success with what basically amounts to weights on the penis for very long periods of time... most men will probably not be willing to do this and from what I understand, it doesn't work for everyone anyway.)

Forget about your mom's opinion, just focus on getting to the root cause with your husband. At worst, you can always use the argument that the discussion of whether or not you should circumsize should come up at a later date post birth because doing it right at birth can mess up the breastfeeding relationship, even make it impossible because of the pain and confusion the newborn will experience. that and no one dies from not getting circ'd but babies die every year from it. Waiting til later raises the chances of not dying because blood will clot better. AT 3-6 months, he might not even bring it up again because he has grown used to seeing an intact penis and caring for it (which is easy.. you just wipe it off like a finger and do nothing else) that it doesn't matter that you never circ'd. If he does bring it up, you'll have an easier chance at asking why he wants to do it when there have been no problems so far. You just have to make sure you word the original agreement as having the discussion again... not making him think it WILL happen at a later date.
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#28 of 33 Old 10-24-2010, 11:41 AM
 
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Ultimately, your (possible future) son DOES deserve an opinion. You can always get a circumsicion later but undoing a circ is extremely difficult (some say you can't undo it but there are a few men out there who have had success with what basically amounts to weights on the penis for very long periods of time... most men will probably not be willing to do this and from what I understand, it doesn't work for everyone anyway.).
Foreskin restoration can never bring back all the specialised nerve endings that are lost. What it does do is protect the glans and repair the keratinization that has taken place, so that the nerve endings on the glans regain their sensitivity. The five most sensitive locations on a penis are situated on the foreskin - these are lost for ever.
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#29 of 33 Old 10-24-2010, 11:45 AM
 
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Foreskin restoration can never bring back all the specialised nerve endings that are lost. What it does do is protect the glans and repair the keratinization that has taken place, so that the nerve endings on the glans regain their sensitivity. The five most sensitive locations on a penis are situated on the foreskin - these are lost for ever.
thank you
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#30 of 33 Old 10-24-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hakunangovi View Post
Foreskin restoration can never bring back all the specialised nerve endings that are lost. What it does do is protect the glans and repair the keratinization that has taken place, so that the nerve endings on the glans regain their sensitivity. The five most sensitive locations on a penis are situated on the foreskin - these are lost for ever.
It also give you back a mobile, functional foreskin. This seems to add a great deal to the man's sexual feelings beyond simply being more sensitive, and provides much better feelings for the woman from the so coalled "gliding action". Think in terms of no lube needed.

Regards
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